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sdjohn wrote:
just use a large socket over the selector side, against the layshaft itself and install with mallet/hammer, making sure not to let the drift hit any machined / important surfaces.
To clarify, you are referring to using the socket on the lip on the shaft where the gears and cruciform rest on?
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so you CANNOT hit the selector rod (moving part in/out) no matter what

You can hit the face of the layshaft on the cast surface
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The cast part where the circlip is resting, not the selector rod and not the machined end that rides in the bearing
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sdjohn wrote:
The cast part where the circlip is resting, not the selector rod and not the machined end that rides in the bearing
thanks, glad I clarified.
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I think you went to far in with the bearing. It should be flat with the cases where the red lines are and touch the circlip on the other side...
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SaFiS wrote:
I think you went to far in with the bearing. It should be flat with the cases where the red lines are and touch the circlip on the other side...
Yep, and it was twisted. Talked to Matt down at Mercato and he set me straight. All in now.
⚠️ Last edited by rfman81 on UTC; edited 1 time
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Another question. How important is it to replace the inner race on the crank side flywheel bearing? I am not sure how to get it off and it's in fine shape, can it just be reused with the new flywheel bearing?
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rfman81 wrote:
Another question. How important is it to replace the inner race on the crank side flywheel bearing? I am not sure how to get it off and it's in fine shape, can it just be reused with the new flywheel bearing?
I don't usually replace it unless it's mega worn… and then the crank is usually toast

if it was installed properly you can use a bearing puller… but most likely you'll have to use a grinder with a plasma disc to remove it with a few strategic cuts
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Crap. Well I think I have a problem and I hope I didn't just destroy my crank.

I went to install the crankshaft, used Robots method in his P200 in frame rebuild by using the clutch to draw it in, greased it up really good, but it kept binding and not pulling in all the way. Also the crank wouldn't spin all the way but got caught up like it was in crooked. I tapped it gently back out and noticed that its shearing the clutch side part of the shaft that fits in the bearing. Almost like the inner new bearing is too tight. I can't imagine this is good for the bearing either...

Did I just destroy my crank is it still usable? What did I do wrong here?
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Is this the crank you pulled out of the engine?

It definitely shouldn't be that tight… those marks on the shaft look pretty aggressive…

I don't think you've don't anything wrong, robots method is pretty reliable, but looks like something isn't the right size
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108 wrote:
Is this the crank you pulled out of the engine?

It definitely shouldn't be that tight… those marks on the shaft look pretty aggressive…

I don't think you've don't anything wrong, robots method is pretty reliable, but looks like something isn't the right size
thanks 108 for answering a bunch of my questions here. You've been a big help.

Yep this is the crank I pulled out, the marks do catch my finger nail. The mean bearing is from SIPs bearing kit, has anyone noticed a difference in size on these? Looks the same.

I am going to try to heat up the bearing and freeze the crank, see if that helps.
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you might get away with emery cloth to clean that up, since the part that rides in the bearing is only partly affected, but it really depends how deep the damage is. If it's really superficial, probably ok.
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sdjohn wrote:
you might get away with emery cloth to clean that up, since the part that rides in the bearing is only partly affected, but it really depends how deep the damage is. If it's really superficial, probably ok.
Thanks SD, good news, I got it in, a little heat, a little freeze and making sure the crank was properly positioned and it came straight in. I don't have the money for a new crank so I am going to role with it, there doesn't seem to be any extra play. It was about a very small amount of material just enough to catch a finger nail on the part side.
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In exciting news to me, cases are back together, used seal kit and some Motoseal as extra precaution. Everything torqued to spec. Thanks everyone who helped so far.

Clutch is rebuilt and back on.
Picking up the cylinder and piston rebore and hone tomorrow. Funny when I dropped it off, the guy at the shop said, well they don't make them like this anymore.

Everything is coming together. I am surprised at the ease of this and simplicity many online resources are the reason I could do this, without it would not have been able to. I hope I have done everything right. Maybe by next week I can have it back in the scoot and do the first start.

I am having issues with replacing swing arm buffers. I have one in but it needs to go about 1/4 in more to be fully it in and it just won't go. More on that later.
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rfman81 wrote:
Another question. How important is it to replace the inner race on the crank side flywheel bearing? I am not sure how to get it off and it's in fine shape, can it just be reused with the new flywheel bearing?
I always, always replace both the bearing and race!
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whodatschrome wrote:
I always, always replace both the bearing and race!
Noted, what's your trick for getting it off the crankshaft?
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rfman81 wrote:
Noted, what's your trick for getting it off the crankshaft?
Ever since i nicked one of my crankshafts (where the fly side oil seal rides) with my angle grinder, i use an actual crank shaft inner race bearing removal tool. If i were to only do one Vespa engine build in my life, then i don't think i would ever buy that tool...but i'm well past one Vespa engine rebuild. The fly side bearing on the P engine are not very big, and they do see a fair amount of use (abuse?). They are also pretty inexpensive as well. The fly side bearing in the Rally 200 and the T5 are both HUGE compaired to the P series. They're about 5 times the size as the P bearing. With those engines i woun't be replacing that bearing very often.
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Quote:
I always, always replace both the bearing and race!
Me too, except when I didn't, and nothing bad happened. That's a sample size of 2 though, so take that with a grain of salt. Probably helps in getting away with that if the new bearing is the exact same part from the same manufacturer.

My go-to inner race removal trick is to buy a big washer that just fits over it, beg some local welder to weld that on, apply a ton of heat, and then use any old bearing puller to ease it off the stump.
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rfman81 wrote:
Yep this is the crank I pulled out, the marks do catch my finger nail. The mean bearing is from SIPs bearing kit, has anyone noticed a difference in size on these? Looks the same.

Yeah should be the same for the main bearing… bit of a mystery on why you're getting the scoring on the crank… especially on a new bearing
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108 wrote:
Yeah should be the same for the main bearing… bit of a mystery on why you're getting the scoring on the crank… especially on a new bearing
I think it was due to the angle, if the crank wasn't line just correctly it caught. Second time around I held it as straight as possible and it went straight in.
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Rebore cylinder is back. Put the piston on, maybe tomorrow I will get the cylinder on.
I have read several folks say they use permetex ultra copper on the base gasket. I am gonna give that a try.
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Engine is complete and partially back in.
I removed the rear shock to have a look at the upper buffer since the engine was out and easy to get to. It's pretty crusty and old. Made me wonder if I should get a new rear shock. See that Mercato has the black adjustable one. https://www.scootermercato.com/174238IP-B Those who have done this, was it worth it? Or should I just clean up old crud shock and get a new buffer?

Went to put my kick start on, I had noticed before taking it off that at times it didn't engage right. I didn't inspect after removing and just inspected today when trying put back on. No wonder it did engage right at times, it's missing splines and chewed up thread and it looks like there is a stress fracture in it. Looks like another order is in place.
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That shock buffer is a regular point of failure. A consumable item. Definitely replace that.

Re. A new shock to go with it - that's a whole other thread. You'll find plenty of existing suspension disscussion here. Just remember that it's pretty much a 'you get what you pay for' thing, except when it's not, as witness the couple of midrange shock options out there with boneheaded design faults.
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It Runs!!! Whew emoticon Have been putting all the electrics back, lines, cables, new SiP Road exhuast, up-jetted to a 128 to start (not sure where to start so figured go high and then back down), put on the replacement kickstart lever in today, put it on, took it outside and 4-5 kicks, she roared to life.
Now just need to adjust the clutch and the rear brake, and I hope to take it for a ride this weekend.

Many thanks to Jim, 108, whodats, SDJohn, SaFis, Gt6MK3, Vodoo and those all who helped and gave advice and opinions which I did not mention. Appreciate everyones help and all those threads of those who have gone before doing this.

So question, since I have a once over rebore, doesn't that actually increase from a 200cc? Where does it put it at? 205? Sorry maths not my strong point.
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What's the first over bore size?

Factory motor displacement is 197.97 CC.

57mm stroke x 3.14 x 33.25mm (66.5/2) bore = 197.97 CC


Volume= height x π x radius.

The first over bore would probably put you closer to 200 cc if its diameter is 66.75mm
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Christopher_55934 wrote:
What's the first over bore size?

Factory motor displacement is 197.97 CC.

57mm stroke x 3.14 x 33.25mm (66.5/2) bore = 197.97 CC


Volume= height x π x radius.

The first over bore would probably put you closer to 200 cc if its diameter is 66.75mm.
First over is 66.75. So that puts it around 199.36. So yes a little closer. Very interesting. Thanks for the formula.
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Congratulations! It's always a thrill to hear the engine fire up after a rebuild. Good job! Clap emoticon Clap emoticon
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rfman81 wrote:
It Runs!!! Whew emoticon Have been putting all the electrics back, lines, cables, new SiP Road exhuast, up-jetted to a 128 to start (not sure where to start so figured go high and then back down), put on the replacement kickstart lever in today, put it on, took it outside and 4-5 kicks, she roared to life.
Now just need to adjust the clutch and the rear brake, and I hope to take it for a ride this weekend.

...
BRAVO Clap emoticon

What qa just said, but you get a double helping because it's your FIRST time! And I must say, looks like you've done a fine job so far.

I'm sure you can scare up a willing accomplice and maybe like to show us your gratitude... how about a couple rolling shots of that first ride??? Eyelashes emoticon
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Let us know how it goes!!
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For those asking for the video of first ride. Enjoy Included the link for those who can't view imbedded video. I couldn't do a rolling shot as I live on a busy road on a hill but the wife took the video rolling out of the drive.

Few things I notice
1. Man those new swingarm bushings and shock bushings make a huge difference
2. The new shocks make a huge difference
3. New rear brake pads make a huge difference.
4. I notice the difference in pulling power and it revs higher with the SIP Road 3. I didn't want to rev to high as I am still breaking in the new piston, rings, and rebore.
5. Mix screw is about 2 turns out, idle is about 2.75 turns out.
6. Bike feels faster, my speedo doesn't really work well, when I am going 50mph on the speedo GPS says I am doing about 60mph. But getting there is much quicker.

Two interesting points.

1. Did a quick plug check after WOT for about 1/2 a mile in 3rd up a hill, cut the motor pulled over. Plug is a light brown, tried to take a picture but the sun screws up the color on the phone camera. I shined a light down inside the plug, to read the plug at the bottom, saw a nice ring close to the bottom on the inside, (I know to get a full reading I have to chop it ) Interesting as I am running a 128 main jet with everything else stock P200 jetting. I thought this would be too rich... but it seems about right. Just seems higher than what others have posted their jetting. Just interesting with a SIP Road 3 and the open heart air filter (stock version you can buy) that it would be around a 128 main jet...

2. After warmed up and a run it seems the same idle issue I face before is there. The idle is still higher when I stop, not racing but noticeable higher. It does die down to set idle level but takes about 45 seconds to drop back down. Choke kills the motor.

https://youtu.be/kdwspUENuEU

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Nice!!
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Lovely, plus sounds great! Clap emoticon
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Love that sound.
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Well done! Clap emoticon
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Cheers all, gonna go for another ride today and do some more plug checking. Got to get that break in over with so I can stop worrying about every little thing.
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rfman81 wrote:
Cheers all, gonna go for another ride today and do some more plug checking. Got to get that break in over with so I can stop worrying about every little thing.
Congrats! But don't wait too long on that kickstart lever...it could hurt the kickstart gear and then you're opening your engine again...been there, done that!
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Congrats! But don't wait too long on that kickstart lever...it could hurt the kickstart gear and then you're opening your engine again...been there, done that!
Thanks! I had replaced the kickstart already. It was in such bad shape I could hardly get it on. Bought one from Mercato, Dave's got a good deal on them.
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Too good to be true. Facepalm emoticon Was out doing an engine break in run… varying throttle, about 8 miles in doing about 45 mph, felt it start to stutter and then felt it seize and pulled clutch, engine died, pulled over. Engine still turned. Smoke was coming from behind the flywheel, and it smelled sorta electrical like… Pulled plug, had metal on it…. See attached

Got it home from a family member with a truck. Thank goodness for cell phones. Pulled cylinder head, piston has a dent on the top (screwdriver tip in picture), pulled the whole cylinder off and bam seize marks on piston, it did not appear to be running lean that I know of, plug was over brown and I was running rich on purpose..

1. is it timing? I did the timing right before the rebuild so lined it all up from what I took off. (Piston head dent made me think this)
2. Can fuel flow affect this and cause this issue? Is my auto lube not lubing Enough or fuel starvation?
3. Could it be my stator got fried and was causing excessive heat on the spark plug?


Jetting Spaco mix screw about 2.25 turns out
160
BE3
Main 130 (Rich, but thought why not for break in)
55/160 idle

I am frustrated… thanks for any insight.
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Nothing much wrong with it..... put it back together and try again. However, there is a big air leak or fuel blockage somewhere.
Pressure test the crankcase (Nowhere near as difficult as it looks) while the carb is off being inspected .
When its running again, put in a big main jet (like 135 if stock cylinder) and confirm it won't rev out. Wide open 2nd gear, should flood so bad it won't clear. Now you know you have fuel delivery.
Jet down, run in, enjoy for ages.
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+1 on the air leak somewhere…

Jetting doesn't seem lean, I'd triple check the ignition to rule it out if other things happen, (even after each engine rebuild) but doubt it's the cause this time.

With a score like that on the piston, I'd look at the auto lube and check it's working. You still have it installed?
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