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Molto Verboso
Wrecked '61 VNB '65 Allstate '74 Rally 200
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Molto Verboso
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Hello, gentlemen. I'm well overdue to be getting my hands dirty with this '74 Rally I picked up, so I figured starting a thread here would be a good place to begin.

This is by no means going to be nearly so illustrious an undertaking as Hjo's Rally project; at this point I'm merely looking to get the bike up and operating as intended by Piaggio when it left the factory. Maybe later on I'll start thinking about body and paint.

I need to get the speedo sent off to SpeedoKing, but right now my main concern is the electrical system, which is unfortunate, as the last electrical work I attempted resulted in a small fire in the headset. Hoping not to repeat that.

Currently the bike is completely Mickey-moused with all the lighting running off a rechargeable battery. Original harness is shot, all the wiring currently in use is the same color. So I thought I'd replace the harness and stator, but the more I think about it, if I'm going to go that far, I might as well upgrade to a 12v batteryless system and ditch the femsatronic in favor of a Ducati ignition system.

Conventional wisdom would seem to indicate that the Ducati conversion necessitates replacing the stock crank, stator, flywheel, and fly-side bearing with a T5 bearing.

Looks like SIP offers a complete kit:

https://www.sip-scootershop.com/en/product/conversion-kit-e-ignition_50019J00

I also happened to recall that the fellow who used to work on my previous Rally had told me that a VespaTronic ignition was a plug and play fix for a failing femsa unit. I found several variable advance ignition systems on the SIP website that indicated they were compatible with a Rally 200, so I'm assuming that they would include a flywheel that would mate to a stock Rally crank?

https://www.sip-scootershop.com/en/product/ignition-vespatronic_50004600

https://www.sip-scootershop.com/en/product/ignition-malossi-vespower-mkii_55169530

https://www.sip-scootershop.com/en/product/ignition-sip-performance-by-vape-sport_51007SD0


Looking for some feedback regarding the relative merits of each approach.
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Lucky
76 Sprint V, 63 GL, 62 VBB, 05 Stella, 66 Smallstate, 79 P200E, 66 Lammy S3
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UTC quote
Isn't the Rally 200's flywheel side cone the same as a PX series flywheel?

If so, then you can pick any PX ignition and go to town. I like the SIP Vape variable timing DC kit myself, but that may be a little wilder than you're looking for.

It comes with a regulator/rectifier, so other than needing to bond the circuits down to a single input from the regulator, it's pretty much plug n' play. Minimally more involved if you wanted to run a battery (have to wire that into the circuit), but still completely straightforward.

Worst case, it seems like you'd need a new crank, but you should be shopping for a 60mm crank anyway!
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2007 Stella 225
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UTC quote
Personally I would install a regulator that can charge a battery and setup the system as DC voltage. Keep a battery even a small one and you'll avoid fluctuations in voltage and not have lights that dim at night. Also makes it easy to switch to an LED bulb if you want to.
@mjrally avatar
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73 & 74 Rally, 76 ET3, 80 P200, 06 PX150, 59 Ser 2, 65 Silver Special, 90 V5N 50, 2015 HD Road Glide Special
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UTC quote
The only aftermarket ignition system Ive found for a stock 74 Rally crank is a Pinasco Flytech. Seriously. Change the crank to a P style one and the sky's the limit.

Going batteryless you'll lose turn signals and horn and lights will dim, but if youre ok with that, then its a simple conversion with a stock harness. If your harness is that fucked, consider buying a new repro harness/ build a simplified one.

Let me know what route you go and I can walk you through it.
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I have the vespatronic that was made for the rally crank.

'74 Rally 200 Vespatronic wiring, with battery, and more...

If I was rebuilding the engine I'd have gone for a P200 crank and a vape ignition.
⬆️    About 2 years elapsed    ⬇️
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Molto Verboso
Wrecked '61 VNB '65 Allstate '74 Rally 200
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Molto Verboso
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Well… THAT was a substantially longer hiatus than I'd ever intended
Been a long series of shenanigans, fiascos, and general f*ckery… during the course of which DMV managed to screw me and I lost my endorsement, so it's been hard to motivate myself to work on a bike I can't legally ride. So my forlorn scooters have just been sitting, as have all the parts I ordered over a year and a half ago.

At the end of next month I'll be taking the motorcycle training course (AGAIN ), so it's time to get my scooter related affairs in order.

I've got a couple of errands to run today, then I'm going see if I can't drop this motor, and hopefully have cases split by the end of today.

Laundry list includes:

Replace wiring harness
Convert to 12v Ducati ignition
Seals
Bearings
Cruciform

I'm including pics of all my parts. If I'm missing anything, do me a solid and let me know; I've decided I'm going to order a complete cable set and carb rebuild kit tonight, so anything else missing, I'll add to my order.

Cheers mates, it's been too long.
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Molto Verboso
Wrecked '61 VNB '65 Allstate '74 Rally 200
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Parts
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Molto Verboso
Wrecked '61 VNB '65 Allstate '74 Rally 200
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More Parts
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Molto Verboso
Wrecked '61 VNB '65 Allstate '74 Rally 200
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Parts list
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Molto Verboso
Wrecked '61 VNB '65 Allstate '74 Rally 200
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Parts list 2
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Molto Verboso
Wrecked '61 VNB '65 Allstate '74 Rally 200
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Wiring harness
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Molto Verboso
Wrecked '61 VNB '65 Allstate '74 Rally 200
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The bike in question
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@mjrally avatar
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Veni, Vidi, Posti
73 & 74 Rally, 76 ET3, 80 P200, 06 PX150, 59 Ser 2, 65 Silver Special, 90 V5N 50, 2015 HD Road Glide Special
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UTC quote
-I don't see a CDI bracket and hardware
-Spark plug cap and wire
I don't trust the metal clutchside seal so I'd buy a blue or brown rubber seal.
-flywheel washer and nut
-kickstart rubber buffers
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Molto Verboso
Wrecked '61 VNB '65 Allstate '74 Rally 200
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Copy that. I was wondering how I was going to mount up the new cdi…

Is this the seal I want?

https://www.scooterwest.com/main-clutch-side-seal-vnx-vsx-112156.html

Or is it this one?

https://www.scooterworks.com/Clutch-Side-Oil-Seal-P200-Rally
@mjrally avatar
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macgerk77 wrote:
Copy that. I was wondering how I was going to mount up the new cdi…

Is this the seal I want?

https://www.scooterwest.com/main-clutch-side-seal-vnx-vsx-112156.html

Or is it this one?

https://www.scooterworks.com/Clutch-Side-Oil-Seal-P200-Rally
Either one works.
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Molto Verboso
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This is a new one on me… in line directly in front of the carb
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Molto Verboso
Wrecked '61 VNB '65 Allstate '74 Rally 200
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MJRally wrote:
Either one works.
Great! Thx, MJ!
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Molto Verboso
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Farmer John wiring snarl
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Molto Verboso
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Well my estimate of the progress I'd hoped to make by tonight may have been a bit ambitious… but in my defense, the exhaust was pretty well frozen on the stub, that held me up.

I'm simultaneously impressed that I made it this far, and embarrassed that I've let myself get this out of practice.

Digging this engine stand tho.
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Molto Verboso
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So I I ordered everything MJ indicated I was missing from my recipe… everything except the cdi bracket. Not sure which one I need… searching didn't give me the answer I'm looking for.

At first I was thinking maybe I could repurpose the femsa bracket mounted on the chassis, as the screws seem to line up, like so:
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Molto Verboso
Wrecked '61 VNB '65 Allstate '74 Rally 200
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You'll have to forgive me, as it's been an eternity since I've had eyes on a p200 motor… all I can remember about how the cdi bracket mounted up on it was that it attached to the back of the case, near the flywheel housing.

I'd assumed that my rally cases would not have provision for mounting this bracket, as it's pre-Ducati.

But I noticed a flat machined spot on the back of the flywheel housing that looks a lot like it's intended for mounting… something.
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Molto Verboso
Wrecked '61 VNB '65 Allstate '74 Rally 200
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The "holes" appear to go all the way through to the inside of the flywheel housing and seem to be filled with some kind of squishy foam-like substance.
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Molto Verboso
Wrecked '61 VNB '65 Allstate '74 Rally 200
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A glance at this parts diagram inclines me to think that I might be able to use a stock p200 CDI bracket on my cases?

Is this right? And if so… why would there be a mounting location for a Ducati CDI on femsa cases?

Sorry if I'm veering into Captain Obvious territory here… I'm rusty to the point of feeling like a newb all over again…
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@mjrally avatar
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Veni, Vidi, Posti
73 & 74 Rally, 76 ET3, 80 P200, 06 PX150, 59 Ser 2, 65 Silver Special, 90 V5N 50, 2015 HD Road Glide Special
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UTC quote
macgerk77 wrote:
A glance at this parts diagram inclines me to think that I might be able to use a stock p200 CDI bracket on my cases?

Is this right? And if so… why would there be a mounting location for a Ducati CDI on femsa cases?

Sorry if I'm veering into Captain Obvious territory here… I'm rusty to the point of feeling like a newb all over again…
No idea why the motors had those holes machined pre P series, but even 60's scooters have those!

The goo is deteriorated rubber plugs. Pry them out.

Yes use a stock P200 L shaped CDI bracket with the correct hardware and voila!
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Molto Verboso
1958 Allstate 177VMC, 1962 Allstate, Yamaha Vino 70cc
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UTC quote
MJRally wrote:
No idea why the motors had those holes machined pre P series, but even 60's scooters have those!

The goo is deteriorated rubber plugs. Pry them out.

Yes use a stock P200 L shaped CDI bracket with the correct hardware and voila!
My 62 VNB has em
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Molto Verboso
Wrecked '61 VNB '65 Allstate '74 Rally 200
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MJRally wrote:
Yes use a stock P200 L shaped CDI bracket with the correct hardware and voila!
Outstanding! Thanks for the heads up, MJ. You rule!
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Molto Verboso
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FridayMatinee wrote:
My 62 VNB has em
Huh. Then I'm guessing my '65 Allstate would have 'em too. Weird.
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Molto Verboso
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I think I'm going to hold off on splitting cases til my clutch side seal arrives. I don't like the idea of leaving my cases open and exposed on the back porch that long. Won't have another day off for a week.

I guess I'll see about getting this harness plumbed through the body.

Either way I feel like I'm making good progress, all things considered.

I'd still like to know what was going through the mind of whatever idiot decided to bypass the stator and run the whole damn bike off the battery Facepalm emoticon
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Molto Verboso
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Progress
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Molto Verboso
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More progress
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MJRally wrote:
No idea why the motors had those holes machined pre P series, but even 60's scooters have those!

They all had them because almost all models mounted the coil there. Only exceptions are the Rally 200 (too fancy to mount on the back of the engine) and the VNA and other budget models that put the coil on the stator to save costs.

The P just used the same holes to mount the bracket.
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oopsclunkthud wrote:
They all had them because almost all models mounted the coil there. Only exceptions are the Rally 200 (too fancy to mount on the back of the engine) and the VNA and other budget models that put the coil on the stator to save costs.

The P just used the same holes to mount the bracket.
Facepalm emoticon of course! Should have thought about it before typing
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oopsclunkthud wrote:
They all had them because almost all models mounted the coil there. Only exceptions are the Rally 200 (too fancy to mount on the back of the engine) and the VNA and other budget models that put the coil on the stator to save costs.

The P just used the same holes to mount the bracket.
So can I get a P CDI bracket and mount my new Ducati CDI to my 76 formerly Femsa Rally 200? I was going to drill new holes in the old CEAB Femsa bracket and keep it mounted on the chassis.
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Molto Verboso
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autojack wrote:
So can I get a P CDI bracket and mount my new Ducati CDI to my 76 formerly Femsa Rally 200? I was going to drill new holes in the old CEAB Femsa bracket and keep it mounted on the chassis.
Yeah, man… It looks like we're golden.

I had more or less the same plan as you, but this is a much happier solution.

You going whole-hog and swapping out the crank?
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macgerk77 wrote:
Yeah, man… It looks like we're golden.

I had more or less the same plan as you, but this is a much happier solution.

You going whole-hog and swapping out the crank?
No? Why would I want to swap out the crank?
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autojack wrote:
No? Why would I want to swap out the crank?
there are two "Ducati CDI" solutions:

1. use the Ducati CDI coil with the Femsa stator and flywheel, this needs a small RC circuit to condition the signal difference.

2. convert the whole thing over to P200. P200 crank, stator, flywheel, Ducati CDI. The stator has to be machined out on the back to clear the cases around the oil seal.

Yes, the P200 CDI bracket will fit on the rally cases.
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oopsclunkthud wrote:
there are two "Ducati CDI" solutions:

1. use the Ducati CDI coil with the Femsa stator and flywheel, this needs a small RC circuit to condition the signal difference.

2. convert the whole thing over to P200. P200 crank, stator, flywheel, Ducati CDI. The stator has to be machined out on the back to clear the cases around the oil seal.

Yes, the P200 CDI bracket will fit on the rally cases.
Oh right - yeah I am taking the RC circuit approach, I already have all the components I need on hand so it should be a cinch. Might be harder to get the P200 bracket - the only local supplier that has them is asking $55 AUD Going to see if I can find one elsewhere without having to wait for overseas shipping.
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Molto Verboso
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I remember seeing where someone had converted to Ducati with the addition of a little home-brew circuit board… I think it was on a German scooter site? But I couldn't find much more information than that, and didn't trust it. Plus I'm a glutton for punishment.

autojack

I paid $35 for my bracket via scooterwest. Shipping from SIP was going to be like $30, plus a long wait.

Btw… are US spec Rally 200's common in Australia?
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macgerk77 wrote:
I remember seeing where someone had converted to Ducati with the addition of a little home-brew circuit board… I think it was on a German scooter site? But I couldn't find much more information than that, and didn't trust it. Plus I'm a glutton for punishment.

autojack

I paid $35 for my bracket via scooterwest. Shipping from SIP was going to be like $30, plus a long wait.

Btw… are US spec Rally 200's common in Australia?
http://www.vespa-klub.dk/Rally_CDI.HTM - it's pretty straightforward. I'm an electronics guy so this type of thing doesn't faze (or should I say phase) me.

Oh, I'd only seen the $15 one without hardware at Scooterwest and elsewhere. $35 with all the mounting hardware is fine - that's $52AUD. But the one I found here for $55AUD does not include the other hardware. I'm checking some other sources.
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'76 Vespa Rally 200
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Location: Melbourne
 
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@autojack avatar
'76 Vespa Rally 200
Joined: UTC
Posts: 703
Location: Melbourne
UTC quote
I can get the bracket and hardware from SIP for AUD$37, plus a very reasonable AUD$67 in shipping Only a couple of dollars cheaper from Scooterwest. Hopefully one of the other local sellers can come through.
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