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Johnny Two Tone
'15 GTS300, '86 PX125EFL, '66 VBB, '01 ET4
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As noted, that's not extra. That's for the clutch bearing.
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Molto Verboso
Wrecked '61 VNB '65 Allstate '74 Rally 200
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Yeah, clutch bearing retaining circlip.
After I picked up the cases from the shop, I realized that I'd left that circlip on my work bench when I'd dropped it off. With the crank installed, there was no way for me to visually verify whether there was a circlip installed.

At the time, I figured there was NO WAY a professional who fixes scooters for a living would install the bearing without a circlip. After the inner bearing race they forgot to install onto the crank and the seal installed backwards, I'm not so sure.

Unfortunately I'm thinking the smartest move for me at this point is to split cases again and check their work in its entirety.
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This could be a good excuse to buy one of those USB inspection cameras. $30 or so on Amazon, plug into your phone. Maybe you could fish it down in there from the clutch breather? Or... Not sure where.
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I have to agree with you here, better safe than sorry and it's easier to check & fix than it is to break & fix. Look at the bright side, at least you got a nice clean motor to split!
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Molto Verboso
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Ok, it is what it is, I guess.

I'm guessing I'm going to need another clutch side seal, right? And should I worry about knocking the crank out of true by drifting it out with a dead blow? I don't have a case splitting tool…
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macgerk77 wrote:
Ok, it is what it is, I guess.

I'm guessing I'm going to need another clutch side seal, right?
...
What ARE you, some kinda dang pessimist now?

It is possible that it's installed right, OK? Maybe.
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V oodoo wrote:
What ARE you, some kinda dang pessimist now?

It is possible that it's installed right, OK? Maybe.
It's possible, but to find out the seal has to come out, and at that point a new seal "should" be used.
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Livid emoticon

AAAARGH!

good point...

Crying or Very sad emoticon
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macgerk77 wrote:
Ok, it is what it is, I guess.

I'm guessing I'm going to need another clutch side seal, right? And should I worry about knocking the crank out of true by drifting it out with a dead blow? I don't have a case splitting tool…
Yeah you can carefully knock the crank out with a drift and mallet. But I'd normally replace the bearing at that point because of the hammering on the ball bearings. However it would mean heating up the crankcase to remove/install a new one or a using a bearing puller tool.
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Molto Verboso
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108 wrote:
Yeah you can carefully knock the crank out with a drift and mallet. But I'd normally replace the bearing at that point because of the hammering on the ball bearings. However it would mean heating up the crankcase to remove/install a new one or a using a bearing puller tool.
It's, ummm, really starting to feel like back square one here.

Really wish I'd seen this about 4 pages back.

https://www.scootermercato.com/Scooter-Parts/Factory-Tools/21467220

I'd have more money and less anger, that's for sure.
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macgerk77 wrote:
It's, ummm, really starting to feel like back square one here.

Really wish I'd seen this about 4 pages back.

https://www.scootermercato.com/Scooter-Parts/Factory-Tools/21467220

I'd have more money and less anger, that's for sure.
That's the one. Buy the tool and after a few practices, you're a slave to no one in the end (besides time and the war dept…). You can do it whenever, properly and without stress of thinking about someone else's work.
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I talked to a mechanic friend of mine, and he said he has a hydraulic press at his shop we might be able to use to pull the crank. I started going through my project pics, and to my horror, found this:
At this  who knows what's behind that crank. Nest of pissed off vipers? Cartoon boxing glove on a spring that punches me in the face? My ex girlfriend?
At this who knows what's behind that crank. Nest of pissed off vipers? Cartoon boxing glove on a spring that punches me in the face? My ex girlfriend?
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macgerk77 wrote:
I talked to a mechanic friend of mine, and he said he has a hydraulic press at his shop we might be able to use to pull the crank. I started going through my project pics, and to my horror, found this:
Wow. Fire that mechanic. It's so obviously wrong. Every shaft seal in the universe looks like that and NONE of them go in like that. VW bus flywheel side crankshaft seal looks just like this…a little bigger though. Jeez. I think you gotta suspect everything from this point. I doubt he would have noticed the missing circlip either.
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No one is using a press to remove a crank… lol

You can, but you really shouldn't…

Red flag for suggesting it…
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Molto Verboso
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Just to be clear, my "mechanic friend" is an extremely talented automotive tech whom I asked for suggestions as to pressing out the crank without the special tool. I was going through my pics looking for a picture that would give him a good idea how the crank was installed.

All the f*ckery going on with my motor is the result of taking it to a scooter shop that specializes in vintage bikes.
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Just to be clear, the "special tool" for removing the crank from the clutch side bearing is a hammer and a brass drift if you really want to be nice to things.

Installing it needs a puller.
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Molto Verboso
'07 GTS250, '07 LX150, '81 P200E, '78 P200E, '64 V90 and 3 Ciaos
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UTC quote
oopsclunkthud wrote:
Just to be clear, the "special tool" for removing the crank from the clutch side bearing is a hammer and a brass drift if you really want to be nice to things.

Installing it needs a puller.
^ This.

And big swings are not needed. A bit of finesse with a 2lb engineer's hammer goes a long way.

Tappy tappy.
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No one using one of these guys?
Forum member supplied image with no explanatory text
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And the photo shows an axle…
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108 wrote:
No one using one of these guys?
I could see using that on a VBB style engine where you heat the case and remove the crank and bearing together. There is a similar factory tool for doing just that on the fly side.

But the assembly of the Rally and P have (or should have) the circlip, In that case I think it's better to have the short but strong impulse of the hammer to get the crank to move in the bearing rather than a slow pressing action that could cause the bearing to move in the case instead.
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macgerk77 wrote:
Just to be clear, my "mechanic friend" is an extremely talented automotive tech whom I asked for suggestions as to pressing out the crank without the special tool. I was going through my pics looking for a picture that would give him a good idea how the crank was installed.

All the f*ckery going on with my motor is the result of taking it to a scooter shop that specializes in vintage bikes.
Yeah that scooter shop sounds like a no go zone.

But honestly I'm surprised your tech friend didn't suggest "use the tools in the manual".

I'd definitely use the crankshaft removal tool, especially for performance crankshafts.

But manual does say use a rubber/wooden mallet.
Grumpnut wrote:
And the photo shows an axle…
And an oil seal facing the wrong way.
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In my Rally, I threaded the clutch nut onto the crank and then knocked it out with a brass hammer. I used a puller that I bought from India on eBay to pull it back in. $15 instead of $75 from a fancier place.
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Molto Verboso
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Dropped and split the motor last night.

Drifted the crankshaft out with a 2lb engineer's hammer and a 1/2" brass punch. Shockingly, I found that the clutch side seal was installed correctly, and the bearing circlip was installed. Still confident that I did the right thing by opening it to double check.

Unfortunately, however, while I was in there, I spotted this:
Forum member supplied image with no explanatory text
I touched it, and this chipped piece fell out in my hand.
I touched it, and this chipped piece fell out in my hand.
How concerned should I be about this? Doesn't look like a a load/stress bearing surface…
How concerned should I be about this? Doesn't look like a a load/stress bearing surface…
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Johnny Two Tone
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UTC quote
i think you just found a good reason to be happy you opened it. imagine that running through your gears.

probably worth protecting all the bearings while removing the sharp edges on that area with a dremel to avoid any crack propagation. I don't think the loss of the chunk will be an issue, but you don't want to lose another one.

that's what I'd do, but let's see what the hive thinks.
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Molto Verboso
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sdjohn wrote:
i think you just found a good reason to be happy you opened it.
Even after I saw that everything was in order behind the crank, I was glad I'd opened 'er up; It was the prudent thing to do, and if nothing else proved to myself I'm getting back in the swing of this stuff. Went much quicker/easier this time around.

Thx for your input, man.
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I tend to agree with smoothing things out with the dremel and that it won't make any difference. I would just check carefully as you are taking it apart that there are no cracks elsewhere or other possible rough handling by "the specialist".
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Looks like it was hit by a flat blade screwdriver…
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108 wrote:
Looks like it was hit by a flat blade screwdriver…
That's what I was thinking, but I can't understand why. It looks fresh.
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orwell84 wrote:
That's what I was thinking, but I can't understand why. It looks fresh.
… can't imagine any loose gear/metal making that type of chip.
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Lucky
76 Sprint V, 63 GL, 62 VBB, 05 Stella, 66 Smallstate, 79 P200E, 66 Lammy S3
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UTC quote
108 wrote:
… can't imagine any loose gear/metal making that type of chip.
I can if I imagine a screwdriver as a piece of loose metal Razz emoticon
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Molto Verboso
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Checked my pics, and it definitely happened at the shop Facepalm emoticon
Right after pulling stock crank
Right after pulling stock crank
Pic from a few pages back when I was trying to get the woodruff installed in new crank after picking it up from shop
Pic from a few pages back when I was trying to get the woodruff installed in new crank after picking it up from shop
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I'm gonna guess that bearing was not installed using an approved method.
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UTC quote
Fuck!!!!!!!!!

Is this an optical illusion, or is there a shim here?
Forum member supplied image with no explanatory text
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Molto Verboso
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Going outside to check RIGHT NOW
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Molto Verboso
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No shim… apparently even an expert can of only fit so much bodgery into one motor
Forum member supplied image with no explanatory text
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Looks like a circlip groove
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hibbert wrote:
Looks like a circlip groove
yup, used on pre and non oil pump models. it's machined even though it's not used.
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Molto Verboso
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I was gonna ask about the groove, but was running out the door to work.
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macgerk77 wrote:
Checked my pics, and it definitely happened at the shop Facepalm emoticon
It's good to take photos to record things. Good for your sanity…

But how the hell do you mis-strike at that location?
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Molto Verboso
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UTC quote
108 wrote:
It's good to take photos to record things. Good for your sanity…

But how the hell do you mis-strike at that location?
Man… I don't know. My first thought was maybe something went wrong when I test fired the motor on its stand but the time frame of the photo precludes that as a possibility.

I can't even figure what they would be doing in there with enough force to chip the case. Maybe using a punch to remove the crank and the punch slipped?
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