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@scooterist avatar
UTC

Molto Verboso
71' Sprint Veloce , 05' Vespa PX150, 1978 P200E
Joined: UTC
Posts: 1558
Location: Tucson, AZ
 
Molto Verboso
@scooterist avatar
71' Sprint Veloce , 05' Vespa PX150, 1978 P200E
Joined: UTC
Posts: 1558
Location: Tucson, AZ
UTC quote
Let me bring you up to speed on this project. I purchased this 71 Sprint Veloce about 8 years ago, it had a poorly modified P200 engine that barely ran, someone did a hideous porting job and the scooter never ran right, I sold the engine(matching cases).

I ordered a new non injected LML 150cc and got the wires to properly work. The scooter was quiet and it started on the first kick. It ran smooth but it was too slow(50 mph GPS). Then I decided to order a new set of P200 engine cases and run a Malossi 210cc. It ran very well, it was very fast but I always thought that my 05 PX150 was a more deserving candidate for the P200E engine with Malossi 210cc so I had a mechanic friend do the swap.

Now I had the PX150 with a 210cc and I had the 71 sprint Veloce with the LML 150cc. The problem is that during the swap a lot of things went wrong on the Sprint Veloce.

1) I loss the main power to the headlight
2) clutch packs seized
3) The same day that I got the scooter the kick pedal never engaged again

I am today motivated and wanting to go ahead and give the 71 sprint veloce a second life. I have the original PX150 engine sitting around with 4700 miles on the Malossi 166cc. what do you guys think?:

Should I try to open up the LML and fix the kick starter and take a look at the clutch? or should I swap the PX150(Malossi 166cc) spare engine? Below are some pictures that I just took.
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OP
@scooterist avatar
UTC

Molto Verboso
71' Sprint Veloce , 05' Vespa PX150, 1978 P200E
Joined: UTC
Posts: 1558
Location: Tucson, AZ
 
Molto Verboso
@scooterist avatar
71' Sprint Veloce , 05' Vespa PX150, 1978 P200E
Joined: UTC
Posts: 1558
Location: Tucson, AZ
UTC quote
Let me ask you guys a question. If the clutch cable was completely loose(disconnected) from the clutch lever at the bottom of the engine would this cause the kick start to just slide freely without resistance? When I kick start it I can hear the pinion inside moving for a couple of seconds after the kick.
@xantufrog avatar
UTC

Moderibbit
1980 P200E - "Old Rusty", 1976 ET3 Primavera
Joined: UTC
Posts: 8892
Location: Atlanta, GA
 
Moderibbit
@xantufrog avatar
1980 P200E - "Old Rusty", 1976 ET3 Primavera
Joined: UTC
Posts: 8892
Location: Atlanta, GA
UTC quote
scooterist wrote:
Let me ask you guys a question. If the clutch cable was completely loose(disconnected) from the clutch lever at the bottom of the engine would this cause the kick start to just slide freely without resistance? When I kick start it I can hear the pinion inside moving for a couple of seconds after the kick.
No, the opposite. That should be the situation where the kick start and top end are as firmly connected as they will ever be. So it's probably not engaging, or something is wonky at the clutch (e.g. stuck disengaged somehow)
OP
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UTC

Molto Verboso
71' Sprint Veloce , 05' Vespa PX150, 1978 P200E
Joined: UTC
Posts: 1558
Location: Tucson, AZ
 
Molto Verboso
@scooterist avatar
71' Sprint Veloce , 05' Vespa PX150, 1978 P200E
Joined: UTC
Posts: 1558
Location: Tucson, AZ
UTC quote
So I just tightened the clutch cable, it was completely missing the barrel/nut that secures the cable at the bottom. It helped a little bit, the kickstart had more resistance. I think this clutch is gone. The last time see the clutch was warped from not being used. We managed to put it together but that was 3 years ago. I am going to try to start the scooter much starting it.

Unfortunately I don't have a choke lever so I am going to have to figure out how to pull the choke cable for the first few meters of the push start.

Before I do that I have to install the carburetor. I am piecing one carburetor as we speak, I have two 20/20s(dell'orto and a space) and 20 different settings to mess around with.

Updating as we speak.
OP
@scooterist avatar
UTC

Molto Verboso
71' Sprint Veloce , 05' Vespa PX150, 1978 P200E
Joined: UTC
Posts: 1558
Location: Tucson, AZ
 
Molto Verboso
@scooterist avatar
71' Sprint Veloce , 05' Vespa PX150, 1978 P200E
Joined: UTC
Posts: 1558
Location: Tucson, AZ
UTC quote
Here is another update. I was able to piece together one of the 20/20 carburetors from my parts bin. Everything came to place as I recall putting these carburetors like a dozen times but it was like a puzzle. Unfortunetly as I was ready to push start the scooter as soon as I opened the fuel cock/valve it started to spill fuel from under.

I am 100% the fuel comes from the fuel cock/valve. At this time I am going to have to remove the tank and take a second look, thankfully I have the fuel valve tool and I might have a spare fuel valve laying around.

On a different note, the fuel stinks like you wouldn't believe, it has been 3 years sitting around in the tank inside of a shed. On the last picture you can see that I intentionally lodge a washer on the choke mechanism because my scooter is missing the choke lever so it would have been very difficult for me to push start the scooter and pull on the choke at the same time.
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@scooterist avatar
UTC

Molto Verboso
71' Sprint Veloce , 05' Vespa PX150, 1978 P200E
Joined: UTC
Posts: 1558
Location: Tucson, AZ
 
Molto Verboso
@scooterist avatar
71' Sprint Veloce , 05' Vespa PX150, 1978 P200E
Joined: UTC
Posts: 1558
Location: Tucson, AZ
UTC quote
So.. I am lucky. When I was searching on one of my parts bins I found a spare BGM high flow fuel tab/cock/valve. I remember one time last year ordering from a company that screwed up my address. They send it to my neighbor and I had to order a second one. The neighbor walked up to me 5 days later and gave me the fuel tab.

I installed the fuel tab on the fuel tank but I bent the tool when I was installing the big nut inside the tank. Now is the time to give some feedback when a product is not up to par. So I am attaching the picture of the tool, it seems to be made by RMS in Italy.

As you can see on the pictures, the fuel tab filter/mesh was disintegrated.You can also see on the picture how much the fuel tab tool gave up and my attempt to close the gap on the vice.
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OP
@scooterist avatar
UTC

Molto Verboso
71' Sprint Veloce , 05' Vespa PX150, 1978 P200E
Joined: UTC
Posts: 1558
Location: Tucson, AZ
 
Molto Verboso
@scooterist avatar
71' Sprint Veloce , 05' Vespa PX150, 1978 P200E
Joined: UTC
Posts: 1558
Location: Tucson, AZ
UTC quote
I cleaned the tank, put fresh 91oct gas with motul 710. put it on gear to push start but even with the gear on it has little resistance and lots of grinding noise. I am going to remove the clutch and take a look. At this point I am trying to not have to open the engine cases, I believe that the clutch is the problem.

it is a new clutch with less than 600 miles but it has been sitting for a few years unused. 3 years ago it was seized but we managed to get it running. It has been sitting for 3 years again. Thinks point to the clutch(in my opinion). Stay tuned.

By the way, I had to drain the tank before I lay the scooter on its side and the BGM high flow fuel tab emptied the gas tank in no time, no kidding with the 900cc /min flow advertising.
OP
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UTC

Molto Verboso
71' Sprint Veloce , 05' Vespa PX150, 1978 P200E
Joined: UTC
Posts: 1558
Location: Tucson, AZ
 
Molto Verboso
@scooterist avatar
71' Sprint Veloce , 05' Vespa PX150, 1978 P200E
Joined: UTC
Posts: 1558
Location: Tucson, AZ
UTC quote
Update. I removed the clutch and the whole thing came in pieces. The metal ring that holds the basket and the metal rings and clutch packs was out of place and warped. For the time being I tried to straight it up with the vice.

This is how I found the clutch, completely out of place.
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UTC

Ossessionato
Joined: UTC
Posts: 2165
Location: Racing Capital of the World
 
Ossessionato
@gickspeed avatar
Joined: UTC
Posts: 2165
Location: Racing Capital of the World
UTC quote
scooterist wrote:
Update. I removed the clutch and the whole thing came in pieces. The metal ring that holds the basket and the metal rings and clutch packs was out of place and warped. For the time being I tried to straight it up with the vice.

This is how I found the clutch, completely out of place.
I'm going to make a few comments. . . . and please take these as helpful.

*don't try to true up you clutch basket retainer; buy a new one. I have to wonder why it came out of the basket in the first place. Are the turrets on the baskets out? maybe it's time for new equipment here.

I've read and seen enough of your story to recommend going all the way through your engine; from your gas tank all the way to your exhaust. That CDI needs replaced, no junction box, incorrect terminals, regulator mounted on chassis adjacent engine, fuel tap that should have been replaced years ago. it's all rather janky. . . and i believe that probably continues through the rest of the engine. Hard to run a successful campaign on the road form what i see.
OP
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Molto Verboso
71' Sprint Veloce , 05' Vespa PX150, 1978 P200E
Joined: UTC
Posts: 1558
Location: Tucson, AZ
 
Molto Verboso
@scooterist avatar
71' Sprint Veloce , 05' Vespa PX150, 1978 P200E
Joined: UTC
Posts: 1558
Location: Tucson, AZ
UTC quote
^^ Yes. The scooter needs to be gone through. All I did was to add a LML engine a few years back and had a local shop work on the wiring. The engine is only probably 600 miles but most of its time has been sitting.

I am ordering the clutch ring today along with a clutch locking tool. I saw the wire on the Ducati CDI, is about to brake. I didn't replaced the fuel tap before because honestly it was working fine the last time I used it. If I can get this scooter running or close to running that would give me a big boost on morale.

This scooter has been sitting in the shed for several years so just the fact that I pulled it out and started working on it again is already a win-win for me. Thanks for your advise. Now I have to take a second hard look at my spare PX150 (Malossi 166cc) engine on the shed because I haven't looked it in a few years.

As far is the current clutch with the badly warped basket ring, I was able to straightened it up a lot using wood blocks and the vice. I am just going to install it quickly just to see if the kick start engages that way I can know for sure if the clutch was causing the problem.
OP
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UTC

Molto Verboso
71' Sprint Veloce , 05' Vespa PX150, 1978 P200E
Joined: UTC
Posts: 1558
Location: Tucson, AZ
 
Molto Verboso
@scooterist avatar
71' Sprint Veloce , 05' Vespa PX150, 1978 P200E
Joined: UTC
Posts: 1558
Location: Tucson, AZ
UTC quote
Good news and bad news. The good news is that I put the clutch together for T-shooting purposes, I just needed to know if the clutch was causing the problem with the kick start and indeed I can confirm that was the problem. The bad news is that I was able to kick start two full kicks before it felt apart again. I removed the clutch just now is it looks the same, the ring holding the basket did not stand despited having put it together on the groove.

As suggested I am ordering a new basket ring which was my original intention but I just wanted to make sure that this was real;ated to the kick start. Thanks again and stay tune for later on this week.
@sdjohn avatar
UTC

Johnny Two Tone
'15 GTS300, '86 PX125EFL, '66 VBB, '01 ET4
Joined: UTC
Posts: 8552
Location: San Diego, CA
 
Johnny Two Tone
@sdjohn avatar
'15 GTS300, '86 PX125EFL, '66 VBB, '01 ET4
Joined: UTC
Posts: 8552
Location: San Diego, CA
UTC quote
Get a new basket too at this point…
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UTC

Molto Verboso
71' Sprint Veloce , 05' Vespa PX150, 1978 P200E
Joined: UTC
Posts: 1558
Location: Tucson, AZ
 
Molto Verboso
@scooterist avatar
71' Sprint Veloce , 05' Vespa PX150, 1978 P200E
Joined: UTC
Posts: 1558
Location: Tucson, AZ
UTC quote
Things got worse, I was about to order a new basket/ring or possibly a new clutch (complete) and as I was going to count the teeth to make sure that I was ordering the correct one now the clutch just would come out. I removed the big ring easily but everything else is loose but stuck on the engine case. Any suggestions on how to get it out? Tap it lightly with a mallet?
⚠️ Last edited by scooterist on UTC; edited 1 time
@socalguy avatar
UTC

bodgemaster
63 GL, 76 Super (x2), 74 Primavera (x2), 79 P200, 06 Fly 150
Joined: UTC
Posts: 7157
Location: So Cal
 
bodgemaster
@socalguy avatar
63 GL, 76 Super (x2), 74 Primavera (x2), 79 P200, 06 Fly 150
Joined: UTC
Posts: 7157
Location: So Cal
UTC quote
Two big screw drivers and a can of Deep Creep, pry ~ gently ~ all around, little at a time, spin, pry, spin, pry, etc. etc.. it'll come off. Don't gouge the case and watch for the woodruff key.
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UTC

Molto Verboso
71' Sprint Veloce , 05' Vespa PX150, 1978 P200E
Joined: UTC
Posts: 1558
Location: Tucson, AZ
 
Molto Verboso
@scooterist avatar
71' Sprint Veloce , 05' Vespa PX150, 1978 P200E
Joined: UTC
Posts: 1558
Location: Tucson, AZ
UTC quote
So I ended up ordering the ring for the clutch basket and at the same time I ordered a 21 teeth Cosa Clutch (complete). It arrived and I installed it. You better believe that I am kidding you not that it started on the first kick.

As I said, it started on the first kick after 3 years but the joy short lived. There is something loose inside that is making a clunking noise, I want to say that the noise is still related to the kick start. It is obvious that previously my scooter wasn't starting with the kick starter because the clutch was lose in pieces. Now that I have a brand new clutch there is something else inside making some clunking noises when I try to kick start it. By the way, I just can't start it now.

At this point I am debating on wether call it quits and leave this engine as a slow project to work on later on and instead just slapping my spare very low miles PX150 grease free engine with the malossi 166c. I don't have a engine stand and I don't know who sell them.
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Forum member supplied image with no explanatory text
⚠️ Last edited by scooterist on UTC; edited 2 times
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@scooterist avatar
UTC

Molto Verboso
71' Sprint Veloce , 05' Vespa PX150, 1978 P200E
Joined: UTC
Posts: 1558
Location: Tucson, AZ
 
Molto Verboso
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71' Sprint Veloce , 05' Vespa PX150, 1978 P200E
Joined: UTC
Posts: 1558
Location: Tucson, AZ
UTC quote
I think that I found the "clonking noise". As I was about to pull the engine out and I was about to insert the flywheel tool I noticed that the flywheel was totally loose. Upon removing the flywheel I see the woodruff key completely beat up. I will let the picture do the justice.

I can either place another order and get a new woodroof key, pull the wood roof key from my spare PX150 engine or just move on for the full engine swap and get balls deep into the scooter. What do you guys think?
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@chandlerman avatar
UTC

Lucky
76 Sprint V, 63 GL, 62 VBB, 05 Stella, 66 Smallstate, 79 P200E, 66 Lammy S3
Joined: UTC
Posts: 9975
Location: Nashville

75 Days Since Last Explosion
 
Lucky
@chandlerman avatar
76 Sprint V, 63 GL, 62 VBB, 05 Stella, 66 Smallstate, 79 P200E, 66 Lammy S3
Joined: UTC
Posts: 9975
Location: Nashville

75 Days Since Last Explosion
UTC quote
Why not steal the woodruff from the spare motor to maintain momentum while you order ten more for spares? That's my standard response to that sort of situation.
OP
@scooterist avatar
UTC

Molto Verboso
71' Sprint Veloce , 05' Vespa PX150, 1978 P200E
Joined: UTC
Posts: 1558
Location: Tucson, AZ
 
Molto Verboso
@scooterist avatar
71' Sprint Veloce , 05' Vespa PX150, 1978 P200E
Joined: UTC
Posts: 1558
Location: Tucson, AZ
UTC quote
I ended up ordering new hardware: woodruff key, star washer and a new flywheel nut. I also have to mention that I put a new cosa clutch but all in vane. The kick start just slips, I adjusted the clutch cable half a dozen times, this is nothing new to me, it should have worked but it didn't.

At this point I don't know what else to do. The kick starter is causing the problem. I also found the source of a metal grinding noise, it appears to be the wrong shape of engine cooling shroud. Apparently the PX 150 shroud that was installed on my Stella engine is slightly off.

What I want to do at this point is to just swap engines. I have a grease/dirt free PX150 engine with low miles and a malossi 166cc kit and honestly I rather put this engine and move on. If someone can tell me where to buy a engine stand I would appreciate it, nothing from SIP, they charge hundreds of dollars for shipping to the US. Thanks!
@socalguy avatar
UTC

bodgemaster
63 GL, 76 Super (x2), 74 Primavera (x2), 79 P200, 06 Fly 150
Joined: UTC
Posts: 7157
Location: So Cal
 
bodgemaster
@socalguy avatar
63 GL, 76 Super (x2), 74 Primavera (x2), 79 P200, 06 Fly 150
Joined: UTC
Posts: 7157
Location: So Cal
UTC quote
Either ScooterSpeed or Mercato can order whatever engine stand you want from SIP, so you avoid SIP's crazy direct shipping charges.

ScooterSpeed might have one of these on the shelf, call and ask
https://scooter-speed.com/vespa-seriepro-engine-stand-all-d0-89005200/
@sdjohn avatar
UTC

Johnny Two Tone
'15 GTS300, '86 PX125EFL, '66 VBB, '01 ET4
Joined: UTC
Posts: 8552
Location: San Diego, CA
 
Johnny Two Tone
@sdjohn avatar
'15 GTS300, '86 PX125EFL, '66 VBB, '01 ET4
Joined: UTC
Posts: 8552
Location: San Diego, CA
UTC quote
in stock at scooter-speed, i have this one

https://scooter-speed.com/vespa-seriepro-engine-stand-all-d0-89005200/
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@scooterist avatar
UTC

Molto Verboso
71' Sprint Veloce , 05' Vespa PX150, 1978 P200E
Joined: UTC
Posts: 1558
Location: Tucson, AZ
 
Molto Verboso
@scooterist avatar
71' Sprint Veloce , 05' Vespa PX150, 1978 P200E
Joined: UTC
Posts: 1558
Location: Tucson, AZ
UTC quote
^^ Thanks a lot man, I am going to order one today. I opened up the LML top end to see if I could see anything wrong but everything looked good as expected for an engine with just a few hundred miles.

As I anticipated, I pulled my PX150 engine from the shed and I am about to do the swap. My big challenge now will be the wiring. Either I will swap the stators and pray it works or I will have to re-arrange the wiring which it will take me who knows. Hopefully the current stator on the LML engine should be an easy swap to the px engine and should be good to go.
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OP
@scooterist avatar
UTC

Molto Verboso
71' Sprint Veloce , 05' Vespa PX150, 1978 P200E
Joined: UTC
Posts: 1558
Location: Tucson, AZ
 
Molto Verboso
@scooterist avatar
71' Sprint Veloce , 05' Vespa PX150, 1978 P200E
Joined: UTC
Posts: 1558
Location: Tucson, AZ
UTC quote
I finished the engine swap. The double yellow stator mounting holes/openings were a hair off so I ended up having to file like 2 mm otherwise the mounting screws couldn't go in.

The flywheel and stator were swapped so that I could duplicate the previous existing wiring diagram. Now the engine is not giving me spark but my rear tail light hits up as soon as you crank the engine.

I will post many pictures tomorrow. My challenge now is to get spark. Fortunately I have spare Ducati CDIs, coils and voltage regulators, all that I really care right now is for the engine to run, I can fix the other circuits later. Lets re-group tomorrow (Saturday Sep 3rd)
OP
@scooterist avatar
UTC

Molto Verboso
71' Sprint Veloce , 05' Vespa PX150, 1978 P200E
Joined: UTC
Posts: 1558
Location: Tucson, AZ
 
Molto Verboso
@scooterist avatar
71' Sprint Veloce , 05' Vespa PX150, 1978 P200E
Joined: UTC
Posts: 1558
Location: Tucson, AZ
UTC quote
I finished the scooter a couple of weeks ago. The full list of hurdles that I had to go through is huge but it was a great experience.

From completely lose flywheel, to destroyed wodruf key to completely dismantled clutch basquet, to unsuspected bad CDI, rewiring the stator, messing with the timing, complete disassembly of carburetor on a chemical bath, unsuspected bad fuel tab(R&R), full engine swap, bad kick start.. you name it!! I managed to scratch my head and pull through.


Today I went with my Gopro and dragy and did some top speed and acceleration trials and I got her to 67 mph GPS which is not bad at all (PX engine , malossi 166cc, 26/26 and sitoplus.

Big thanks to those that took the time to respond and pitch in with a comment and also for any one that took the time to follow this topic. Goal accomplished!! I went from having a semi abandoned scooter sitting in the shed for 3 years to fully running and picking up my son from school a couple of days a week. Soon I will open another topic when I open up my other LML engine, stay tuned.

I do my speed, distance and acceleration testing with dragy. I also use the phone but Dragy is all you ever want in life, baddest speed/acceleration measuring divide ever invented for telemetry, video and acceleration data on a compact size. The software on the chip is specifically for speed, video, telemetry, temp, altitude, distance and acceleration, it is bluetooth, comes with a strong magnet and is the industry standard for 1/4 mile racing..look it up!
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