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Mauro150LX wrote:
This guy is counter steering through the whole turn:
That's not really counter steering, though. That's drifting.
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Yes but you have to counter steer in order to keep drifting, which is what I understood jerryd understood of what Miguel wrote (to me, Miguel wrote what we all have been writing, that one always countersteer, even if for a fraction of a second...)
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Guzzi Gal wrote:
For those who have a hard time understanding or refuse to believe in countersteering. This image might help.

BTW, this looks like too much fun!
Have to add, although mayby to pile up to my slowless to grasp this thing when younger: I was raised in a small village, surrounded with farm houses.

We used to reserve a piece of old field for our very own racing competitions. As an oval would have been too boring, we did a track shaped like the number 8.

So riding was full steam ahead, drift to right, full steam ahead, drift to left... etc.
In a mud track As we rode many laps at a time and fell down a lot, the intersection part of the 8 became a very interesting point after a while...

And my point was - even then I did not realize how I actually initiated the drift nor that I could have been a bit quicker by knowing what I was supposed to do.

An epilogue: we tried the same with 'monkey bikes' when we were adults. Not an 8 shaped track this time as we were sissies. 8" wheeled bikes were all over the place all the time, but I believe that we, or at least I had a better riding technique than in the original races. I was slower, for sure, but that was only because I'd grown some common sense during the years....
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This really sound super cool!!
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Scooter riders overthinking....themselves into the gravel and then the guardrail.
When you were a kid riding a bike and a turtle crawled in front of you, what did you do?
Yeah.
O.S.
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OldSchooot wrote:
Scooter riders overthinking....themselves into the gravel and then the guardrail.
When you were a kid riding a bike and a turtle crawled in front of you, what did you do?
Yeah.
O.S.
Ran over the turtle.
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Bunny hop.
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OldSchooot wrote:
Scooter riders overthinking....themselves into the gravel and then the guardrail.
When you were a kid riding a bike and a turtle crawled in front of you, what did you do?
Yeah.
O.S.
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I went out just now to determine what, in fact , I unconsciously do. The answer is that I do, in fact, counter steer to initiate a lean/curve, and counter steer throughout the curve to accout for tightening/relaxing changes in the curve, and to move in the lane while leaning to avoid obstacles or position the bike.

I would have not thought that, but actually paying attention to what I am doing bears it out. I came to scooters from bicycles, and never thought about it before... I just assumed it was a body weight thing.

Even in emergency situations, I have never done the wrong thing like the guy in the video. My brain would have tightened that line without thinking about it. I never jerk the handlebar the way he does... he was panicking.

So for the guys who say that everyone who is traveling over about 15mph and negotiating a curve is counter steering, I concur.
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Wilbur Wright correctly asserted that countersteering is the mechanism for turning *at all speeds*. It's only more obvious via feedback at the higher speeds.
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heres what I think.
a. everyone here knows how to ride a bike. and everyone has pride in that fact.
b. there is a difference of opinion here because there are TWO definitions of counter steer

the key is the phrase " lean left, push left, go left"

per the video. if turning left at slow speed you pull the left bar toward you. (steer left) result is wheel turns left and bike turns left.

at speed when you have the gyro effect of front wheel to overcome, it becomes push the left bar away from you. (steering right) result is bike leans left and turns left. and you have to continue adding pressure to left bar or bike will fall over. but tire itself is not counter steering, it is turned left.

where the confusion lies is WHAT IS THE WHEEL doing? the wheel is actually turned left. the only time the wheel will actually be turned right during a left hand turn is when the rear wheel is loosing traction and sliding outward in the turn.

definition 1. wheel actually turned right during left turn. IE dirt bikes power sliding, or street bike recovering from rear wheel breaking traction.

definition 2. right steering effort to turn bike left IE lean left. push left, turn left.
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jerryd wrote:
at speed when you have the gyro effect of front wheel to overcome, it becomes push the left bar away from you. (steering right) result is bike leans left and turns left.
jerryd wrote:
where the confusion lies is WHAT IS THE WHEEL doing? the wheel is actually turned left. the only time the wheel will actually be turned right during a left hand turn is when the rear wheel is loosing traction and sliding outward in the turn.
These two statements of yours contradict each other.

You had it right the first time. when you push on the left bar, you are steering right, if only for a brief moment before the bike turns left. Hence, counter-steer. The second statement is just plain wrong.

There are people in this thread using counter-steer to mean the rear-wheel sliding that people do off-road. That's not what we're talking about here, though, and discussion of off-road techniques quite literally muddies the discussion.
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True, it had confused me at the beginning of the speech ... problem of grammatical and conceptual definition, but then I understood.
Thanks Jess and sorry if I initially polluted the discussion.
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jess wrote:
There are people in this thread using counter-steer to mean the rear-wheel sliding that people do off-road. That's not what we're talking about here, though, and discussion of off-road techniques quite literally muddies the discussion.
agreed. if you were following my entrance to the thread I commented on guzi gals dirt bike picture. I havent read any posts prior to that. so if there was prior clarification, then excuuuuuse me.
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I can't wait till we start talking about trail braking.
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jerryd wrote:
per the video. if turning left at slow speed you pull the left bar toward you. (steer left) result is wheel turns left and bike turns left.
Bollocks. Even at a very slow walking pace, the front wheel *has* to be nudged 'the wrong way' to initiate the turn. Only if the rider leans out in the 'outside' direction so far that the bike can stay absolutely upright can a turn be started as you describe - but that position can't be accurately held for more than a few milliseconds. Not even on an MP3. You'd fall over, guaranteed.

It's not all about the gyroscopic effect, either. As I wrote earlier, the caster of the front wheel makes a huge contribution. Try riding a bike with a vertical steering stem and zero caster - just about impossible to steer.
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I'm an unconscious counter steer person. When I enter a turn, I'm busy setting up the apex/speed of the turn and looking ahead for hazards, not thinking counter steer.
When in traffic I'm busy thinking ahead and analyzing the other drivers around me. Once in a while I'll notice a car on a side street and think "oops, didn't have that one covered". I'm so involved in safety when I ride that my survivability suffers. I probably need to spend more time practicing the counter steer escape.
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breaknwind wrote:
I probably need to spend more time practicing the counter steer escape.
As I said above, I practice it on most every ride.

Another thing I do is honk at anyone that can enter my lane of travel but not looking at me. The first toot is short. The second is considerably longer.

Best
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Mauro150LX wrote:
This guy is counter steering through the whole turn:

which is something anyone could do with constant practice and with great amusement
That is a controlled powered skid.
The rear wheel losing traction is steering the bike, which is why the rider almost hits the guardrail.

Here is a revealing shot of a racing bike in the moment the rider transitions into a LEFT turn.
The rider is looking in the direction he wants to travel.
His body mass is centred.
He is not leaning.
The wheel is turned to his RIGHT.


External inline image provided by member with no explanatory text

Here is a shot of a rider in a race in the middle of taking a RIGHT turn.
He is looking right.
His body mass is to the right.
He is leaning to the right (to the extent that his knee is in contact the ground.)
The wheel is turned to the RIGHT - only just.

One can clearly see that the bike is on the limit of control and traction - as would be expected in a racing situation.

External inline image provided by member with no explanatory text

Interesting to note is that the centre line of the rider is further to his right than the centre line of the bike.
If the bike were leaning to that extent, it would lose traction.
If the front wheel loses traction first, it will slide the bike and the rider to his left. away from the apex - a low-side.
If the rear wheel loses traction first, the rear will slide out until the bike is 90 degrees to the direction of travel, flip up and eject the rider over the bike - a high-side.
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jess wrote:
Strongly disagree. I think it's often the case that trying to explain counter-steering to someone ends up making the situation worse. Everybody is already counter steering, to some degree. Forcing them to understand what they are already doing accomplishes nothing.
Well, once again, it seems you were right from the beginning Jess...

After 4 pages, of explanations, pictures and videos, some people still don't get it while some others do think they do and another group wonder what it is and why they are not doing it..

In the end, we are all having good time while doing it...

And that's all it matters... Laughing emoticon
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Burt37 wrote:
And that's all it matters... Laughing emoticon
Hear hear!
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When I had the road accident, to avoid the worst, I had a few seconds to "cross" the Vespa PX, suddenly braking with the rear brake and turning the whole handlebar to rotate the body of the Vespa ninety degrees and avoid the frontal impact with the nose of the truck (Iveco Turbo, a beast ...).
The maneuver was partially successful but it saved my life and the sheet metal shield of the Vespa saved my leg from being crushed.
The point, in this case which is different from the initial argument, is that an intentional "skid" (as Fud rightly calls it) can save your life.
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The riders wheel in picture one isn't in contact with the ground and that section of the track ( The exit of Graham Hill Bend into Cooper Straight at Brands Hatch ) is a flat out section into an uphill left called Surtees, so the front wheel is probably off center because it's not in contact with the track under power rather than it being steered.

He is leaning as his helmet is off center from the fairing.
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Burt37 wrote:
Well, once again, it seems you were right from the beginning Jess...

After 4 pages, of explanations, pictures and videos, some people still don't get it while some others do think they do and another group wonder what it is and why they are not doing it..

In the end, we are all having good time while doing it...

And that's all it matters... Laughing emoticon
and this thread seems to have a safety awareness impact too, as many have reported experimenting and focusing on what they do - the best cases being those, who just now learned what to practise to control their scoots even a bit better.


... which also reminded me on one thing - I've discovered and practiced counter steering on trad. motorcycles first. There the basic lesson is to keep the control of your bike during curves with your lower body: bum at the seat, feet at the pegs and knees pressing the tank.This all to release and relax your hands to manage steering action gently and responsively.

All good, but - when I rode a scoot after all this, my Vespa, I was a bit lost. I'd become quite good in having a tight contact with the bike with my lower body. Now the gas tank was gone, solid pegs were gone...

Others with both bikes and scoots, those who are in the 'countersteer camp ), what' s your best adaptation of the lower body control for a scoot?

To a lesser degree, I actually have this issue again with my scrambler style bike: the darn upswept pipe is both bulky and hot at the right side. During the 4 last seasons I still miss a bit having equal and good contact to the tank at both sides... I've chosen to grill me knees temporarily at curves, better that than weaker body control. Of course it is not burning hot, it is protected, but definitely not comfortable.
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Fudmucker wrote:
Here is a revealing shot of a racing bike in the moment the rider transitions into a LEFT turn.
The rider is looking in the direction he wants to travel.
His body mass is centred.
He is not leaning.
The wheel is turned to his RIGHT.


External inline image provided by member with no explanatory text

Yep! I described this before, but a photo helps!
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RRider wrote:
Others with both bikes and scoots, those who are in the 'countersteer camp ), what' s your best adaptation of the lower body control for a scoot?
The butt, I move on the saddle (like on the motorcycle), I put the "inner" leg as out as possible and the other not too much at the center of the scooter, and I push with the feet having care not to keep them too much "outside".
Basically I tend to move the same way than when I'm on a motorcycle and all in all it seems to work, but I'm more a motorcyclist so I might do something wrong.
Basically my scooter riding is quite smooth and fluid and I think that's enough...
Surely I miss all the anchorage points for the half of my body which's outside in a turn (e.g. gas tank).
Again sorry for my bad english!
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I fully agree that to some extent everyone counter steers even though they may not realize it. I can see some confusion on a Vespa board as they are very light and maneuverable motorbikes. On my Vespa I usually I just shift my weight to change direction and only really counter steer on a sweeping turn. If you are properly trained or just a good rider in general you look were you are going and the act of turning should (better!) be instinctual. So I don't think about what I'm doing as I'm focused on where I am going and of course I'm counter steering and I bet there is a little leaning in there as well.

Some things like trail breaking and compressing the front shocks going in to a turn do require some level of practice and training but counter steering and leaning should be in everyones tool kit.
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I think I have ridden too many crowded streets at low speeds to be able to tell if I counter-steer. After reading this thread I tried to see what I did when I leaned into a corner but couldn't tell. I definitely look where I want to go and the bike follows.
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Mauro150LX wrote:
The butt, I move on the saddle (like on the motorcycle), I put the "inner" leg as out as possible and the other not too much at the center of the scooter, and I push with the feet having care not to keep them too much "outside".
Basically I tend to move the same way than when I'm on a motorcycle and all in all it seems to work, but I'm more a motorcyclist so I might do something wrong.
Basically my scooter riding is quite smooth and fluid and I think that's enough...
Surely I miss all the anchorage points for the half of my body which's outside in a turn (e.g. gas tank).
Again sorry for my bad english!
Thanks for the response Mauro150LX. This sounds quite much the same I tried to do. I tested different feet positions too, for me feet close to the back end of the floor boards worked the best - or mayby that was just the most familiar position from motorcycles

I too liked riding curves with Vespa, if not fast, that was at least very much fun!
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Okay, who gave F9 the nudge?

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az_slynch wrote:
Okay, who gave F9 the nudge?
I knew someone would post that here 😀

Watched that earlier today then went straight out and rode my favourite local winding road.

Seems I mostly counter lean. Interesting i usually lean as i enter the corner but by mid corner I've moved to counter lean. Although on some long coners i lean for a longer time but not on all long corners.

Still observing myself trying to understand my patterns ... 🤔
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Rallygeek wrote:
I definitely look where I want to go and the bike follows.
This
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The vehicle following my eye was a phenomenon that I didn't appreciate until I was riding larger motorcycles on more technical roads. Motorcycles (Harleys excepted) and scooters corner differently because of the floor boards and tire size. While I heard the phrase "look through the turn" long before I started riding motorcycles I didn't necessarily understand it. It took an MC performance class on a twisty track to really understand and experience the concept.

Likewise, I strongly suspect that "counter-steering", a concept I learned about generally on the forum but read about in "Proficient Motorcycling" is something that I do unconsciously. I suspect that if I tried to consciously recreate it; I'd dump the bike in a corner.

I'm sure that I am both counter-steering and looking through the turn in the attached picture.
Forum member supplied image with no explanatory text
OP
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Knight Train wrote:
The vehicle following my eye was a phenomenon that I didn't appreciate until I was riding larger motorcycles on more technical roads. Motorcycles (Harleys excepted) and scooters corner differently because of the floor boards and tire size. While I heard the phrase "look through the turn" long before I started riding motorcycles I didn't necessarily understand it. It took an MC performance class on a twisty track to really understand and experience the concept.

Likewise, I strongly suspect that "counter-steering", a concept I learned about generally on the forum but read about in "Proficient Motorcycling" is something that I do unconsciously. I suspect that if I tried to consciously recreate it; I'd dump the bike in a corner.

I'm sure that I am both counter-steering and looking through the turn in the attached picture.
Nice form. Head is where it should be and it looks in this moment that you are "balanced" in your lean and steering is neutral. You are probably just getting back on the throttle to finish your line which will result in a bit more counter steer to keep you on your line.

Now that I do this consciously I cannot imagine when I didn't. I can say I was not as good a rider then. You are a natural my friend. Best you keep it that way.
⬆️    About 3 months elapsed    ⬇️
@steelbytes avatar
UTC

Veni, Vidi, Posti
2019 GTS300 Supertech E3 60,000km
Joined: UTC
Posts: 5732
Location: Batmania aka Melbourne, Australia
 
Veni, Vidi, Posti
@steelbytes avatar
2019 GTS300 Supertech E3 60,000km
Joined: UTC
Posts: 5732
Location: Batmania aka Melbourne, Australia
UTC quote
Veritasium recently posted a video about steering bicycles

@touring300 avatar
UTC

Ossessionato
GTS 300ie Touring 2013 - Signora D'argento
Joined: UTC
Posts: 2095
Location: Lancaster, U.K.
 
Ossessionato
@touring300 avatar
GTS 300ie Touring 2013 - Signora D'argento
Joined: UTC
Posts: 2095
Location: Lancaster, U.K.
UTC quote
A great video. Conclusive proof on the principals of counter steering.
OP
@stickyfrog avatar
UTC

Moderatus Rana
MP3 250 and 2 MP3 500s
Joined: UTC
Posts: 22659
Location: Nashville, Indiana
 
Moderatus Rana
@stickyfrog avatar
MP3 250 and 2 MP3 500s
Joined: UTC
Posts: 22659
Location: Nashville, Indiana
UTC quote
Great video Steelbytes. It really shows that you cannot steer a bike while riding without counter-steer at any speed unless you are duck walking.

@mr_f avatar
UTC

Hooked
2013 BV350
Joined: UTC
Posts: 451
Location: Sacramento, California
 
Hooked
@mr_f avatar
2013 BV350
Joined: UTC
Posts: 451
Location: Sacramento, California
UTC quote
Mpfrank,

That was exactly what crossed my mind!
@bob_copeland avatar
UTC

Ossessionato
2013 Vespa 300 Super, 2022 Kymco AK 550
Joined: UTC
Posts: 3611
Location: Minneapolis USA
 
Ossessionato
@bob_copeland avatar
2013 Vespa 300 Super, 2022 Kymco AK 550
Joined: UTC
Posts: 3611
Location: Minneapolis USA
UTC quote
There has been much discussion on this topic. In the rider safety course I took
years ago, the instructor told us to turn your hear and look where you want to
go in the curve/turn and you scoot will go there.

Saved my bacon after taking a curve to fast.

Bob Copeland
UTC

Addicted
Joined: UTC
Posts: 543
 
Addicted
Joined: UTC
Posts: 543
UTC quote
A great video that also shows how R/C model motorcycles work. Joystick to the right steers left to lean right into right turn.
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