OP
@kz1000st avatar
UTC

Molto Verboso
Dongfang 170cc, CF Moto Fashion 250
Joined: UTC
Posts: 1891
Location: Hyde Park, New York
 
Molto Verboso
@kz1000st avatar
Dongfang 170cc, CF Moto Fashion 250
Joined: UTC
Posts: 1891
Location: Hyde Park, New York
UTC

Ossessionato
2016 Vespa GTS300ie abs/asr/ess Settantesimo '70'
Joined: UTC
Posts: 3766
Location: East Anglia, UK
 
Ossessionato
2016 Vespa GTS300ie abs/asr/ess Settantesimo '70'
Joined: UTC
Posts: 3766
Location: East Anglia, UK
UTC quote
The ULEZ is a brilliant way of cutting air pollution. Most Londoners agree. It's the unseen particulate matter that's the problem along with nox and it kills huge numbers of people. In fact ULEZ is working so well that other major cities in the UK have and are adopting the same approach. Bring on electric!
@louswheel avatar
UTC

Molto Verboso
150 Sprint Veloce, RE Meteor 350
Joined: UTC
Posts: 1269
Location: St Neots Cambridgeshire England
 
Molto Verboso
@louswheel avatar
150 Sprint Veloce, RE Meteor 350
Joined: UTC
Posts: 1269
Location: St Neots Cambridgeshire England
UTC quote
Stromrider wrote:
The ULEZ is a brilliant way of cutting air pollution. Most Londoners agree. It's the unseen particulate matter that's the problem along with nox and it kills huge numbers of people. In fact ULEZ is working so well that other major cities in the UK have and are adopting the same approach. Bring on electric!
Popcorn emoticon

Graham
@stickyfrog avatar
UTC

Moderatus Rana
MP3 250 and 2 MP3 500s
Joined: UTC
Posts: 22659
Location: Nashville, Indiana
 
Moderatus Rana
@stickyfrog avatar
MP3 250 and 2 MP3 500s
Joined: UTC
Posts: 22659
Location: Nashville, Indiana
UTC quote
Quote:
Heavier vehicles, such as trucks over 3.5 tons or buses over 5 tons must pay a £100 (approximately $137.32) fee.
So this part seems like just another tax paid for by Londoner's. Trucking company pays £100 a day for each truck delivering in the zone to the city. Trucking company tacks that additional expense on the bill and the merchants pay it. The merchants pass the extra expense onto consumers.

I am all for controlling pollution but this doesn't really help with that mission unless I am missing something.
@jimc avatar
UTC

Moderaptor
The Hornet (GT200, aka Love Bug) and 'Dimples' - a GTS 300
Joined: UTC
Posts: 43939
Location: Pleasant Hill, CA
 
Moderaptor
@jimc avatar
The Hornet (GT200, aka Love Bug) and 'Dimples' - a GTS 300
Joined: UTC
Posts: 43939
Location: Pleasant Hill, CA
UTC quote
stickyfrog wrote:
So this part seems like just another tax paid for by Londoner's. Trucking company pays £100 a day for each truck delivering in the zone to the city. Trucking company tacks that additional expense on the bill and the merchants pay it. The merchants pass the extra expense onto consumers.

I am all for controlling pollution but this doesn't really help with that mission unless I am missing something.
They've had plenty of warning to find other means of transport - there are hybrid lorries (trucks) available these days. The air quality was dire in places - at least one family member's death was attributed directly to the pollution. Many city centres in Europe have far stricter rules - no ICE vehicles allowed at all.
@seamus26 avatar
UTC

Ossessionato
1979 P200E (sold) / ZNEN Amore 150 (sold) / Genuine Buddy 170i / Genuine Stella 4T /Aprilia Sportcity One 50
Joined: UTC
Posts: 2463
Location: Grand Rapids, MI
 
Ossessionato
@seamus26 avatar
1979 P200E (sold) / ZNEN Amore 150 (sold) / Genuine Buddy 170i / Genuine Stella 4T /Aprilia Sportcity One 50
Joined: UTC
Posts: 2463
Location: Grand Rapids, MI
UTC quote
We are making tail lamps for these right now.

External inline image provided by member with no explanatory text

External inline image provided by member with no explanatory text

I'm scanning a housing for that top lamp right now. They are a nightmare.
@stickyfrog avatar
UTC

Moderatus Rana
MP3 250 and 2 MP3 500s
Joined: UTC
Posts: 22659
Location: Nashville, Indiana
 
Moderatus Rana
@stickyfrog avatar
MP3 250 and 2 MP3 500s
Joined: UTC
Posts: 22659
Location: Nashville, Indiana
UTC quote
jimc wrote:
They've had plenty of warning to find other means of transport - there are hybrid lorries (trucks) available these days. The air quality was dire in places - at least one family member's death was attributed directly to the pollution. Many city centres in Europe have far stricter rules - no ICE vehicles allowed at all.
Yes. Outright banning ICE vehicles to me would be the route to take. Especially if they have had plenty of warning. Why even open up the possibility of them entering?
@seamus26 avatar
UTC

Ossessionato
1979 P200E (sold) / ZNEN Amore 150 (sold) / Genuine Buddy 170i / Genuine Stella 4T /Aprilia Sportcity One 50
Joined: UTC
Posts: 2463
Location: Grand Rapids, MI
 
Ossessionato
@seamus26 avatar
1979 P200E (sold) / ZNEN Amore 150 (sold) / Genuine Buddy 170i / Genuine Stella 4T /Aprilia Sportcity One 50
Joined: UTC
Posts: 2463
Location: Grand Rapids, MI
UTC quote
stickyfrog wrote:
Yes. Outright banning ICE vehicles to me would be the route to take. Especially if they have had plenty of warning. Why even open up the possibility of them entering?
Quote:
My uncle has a country place
No one knows about
He says it used to be a farm
Before the "Motor Law"
And on Sundays I elude the eyes
And hop the turbine freight
To far outside the wire
Where my white-haired uncle waits
Jump to the ground
As the turbo slows to cross the borderline
Run like the wind
As excitement shivers up and down my spine
Down in his barn
My uncle preserved for me an old machine
For 50 odd years
To keep it as new has been his dearest dream
I strip away the old debris
That hides a shining car
A brilliant red Barchetta
From a better vanished time
We fire up the willing engine
Responding with a roar
Tires spitting gravel
I commit my weekly crime
Wind in my hair
Shifting and drifting
Mechanical music
Adrenaline surge
Well-weathered leather
Hot metal and oil
The scented country air
Sunlight on chrome
The blur of the landscape
Every nerve aware
Suddenly ahead of me
Across the mountainside
A gleaming alloy air car
Shoots towards me, two lanes wide
I spin around with shrieking tires
To run the deadly race
Go screaming through the valley
As another joins the chase
Drive like the wind
Straining the limits of machine and man
Laughing out loud with fear and hope
I've got a desperate plan
At the one-lane bridge
I leave the giants stranded at the riverside
Race back to the farm
To dream with my uncle at the fireside
UTC

Ossessionato
2016 Vespa GTS300ie abs/asr/ess Settantesimo '70'
Joined: UTC
Posts: 3766
Location: East Anglia, UK
 
Ossessionato
2016 Vespa GTS300ie abs/asr/ess Settantesimo '70'
Joined: UTC
Posts: 3766
Location: East Anglia, UK
UTC quote
Amazon already has 100,000 electric trucks operating here in the UK and have just ordered another 100,000. Our regular amazon driver says they all fight over who is driving the electric vans as they are so much fun to drive! Having driven several electric cars I would likely concur.

The big pull for commercial operators is the fact electric trucks and vans are cheaper to service by far. About 1/3 of the cost of an ice engine vehicle with running cost also down on the floor. They also don't have to pay air pollution fees in cities so everyone wins.
@attila avatar
UTC

Veni, Vidi, Posti
In garage: Yamaha Tricity 155 Urban 2019 - MV Agusta 125 RS 1956
Joined: UTC
Posts: 8291
Location: Latina (Italy)
 
Veni, Vidi, Posti
@attila avatar
In garage: Yamaha Tricity 155 Urban 2019 - MV Agusta 125 RS 1956
Joined: UTC
Posts: 8291
Location: Latina (Italy)
UTC quote
Not everyone wins, even if it will be better for the environment there will be more unemployed in maintenance.
UTC

Ossessionato
2016 Vespa GTS300ie abs/asr/ess Settantesimo '70'
Joined: UTC
Posts: 3766
Location: East Anglia, UK
 
Ossessionato
2016 Vespa GTS300ie abs/asr/ess Settantesimo '70'
Joined: UTC
Posts: 3766
Location: East Anglia, UK
UTC quote
Attila wrote:
Not everyone wins, even if it will be better for the environment there will be more unemployed in maintenance.
That's unlikely Attila. The motor trade keeps adapting just like any other and electric vehicles still need servicing in many conventional ways. Although the electric engines simply don't wear out in the same way as ice engines, or need the sort of maintenance that ice engines need so a rebalancing within the trade will happen. Many tech will need some retraining to tackle the new systems. But it's estimated just as many techs will be needed over the coming years to look after the electric vehicles and their batteries.

We even have new Lithium Ion battery recycling plants starting to be built to strip the batteries and properly recycle them into new batteries. This is new technology and will require thousands of workers. It's pretty much a win win all round in my book.
@breaknwind avatar
UTC

Ossessionato
Red Devil SH150i (10,000)
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Posts: 3255
Location: Orange Park Florida
 
Ossessionato
@breaknwind avatar
Red Devil SH150i (10,000)
Joined: UTC
Posts: 3255
Location: Orange Park Florida
UTC quote
My cousin worked at an Exide battery plant. Toxic stuff. I'll pass.
@jess avatar
UTC

Petty Tyrant
0:7 And counting
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Posts: 37347
Location: Bay Area, California
 
Petty Tyrant
@jess avatar
0:7 And counting
Joined: UTC
Posts: 37347
Location: Bay Area, California
UTC quote
breaknwind wrote:
My cousin worked at an Exide battery plant. Toxic stuff. I'll pass.
Not the same kind of battery.
UTC

Veni, Vidi, Posti
Joined: UTC
Posts: 7095
Location: Tega Cay, SC
 
Veni, Vidi, Posti
Joined: UTC
Posts: 7095
Location: Tega Cay, SC
UTC quote
There are and will be jobs in the electric field. Zero motorcycles, while being fairly low on maintenance, do break down and need analysis and parts replaced. Just because we are going to electrics does not mean there won't be jobs. They will just be different jobs and in just as high in demand.
@dooglas avatar
UTC

Veni, Vidi, Posti
GTS 300ABS, Buddy 125, Buddy Kick 125
Joined: UTC
Posts: 13411
Location: Oregon City, OR
 
Veni, Vidi, Posti
@dooglas avatar
GTS 300ABS, Buddy 125, Buddy Kick 125
Joined: UTC
Posts: 13411
Location: Oregon City, OR
UTC quote
Stromrider wrote:
The big pull for commercial operators is the fact electric trucks and vans are cheaper to service by far. About 1/3 of the cost of an ice engine vehicle with running cost also down on the floor. They also don't have to pay air pollution fees in cities so everyone wins.
I've been driving an EV as my primary vehicle for 7 years now. I expected reduced fuel costs and cleaner operation with battery power. No one had stressed to me the difference in maintenance and repair costs. It is quite dramatic.
@attila avatar
UTC

Veni, Vidi, Posti
In garage: Yamaha Tricity 155 Urban 2019 - MV Agusta 125 RS 1956
Joined: UTC
Posts: 8291
Location: Latina (Italy)
 
Veni, Vidi, Posti
@attila avatar
In garage: Yamaha Tricity 155 Urban 2019 - MV Agusta 125 RS 1956
Joined: UTC
Posts: 8291
Location: Latina (Italy)
UTC quote
Mind you, it's not that I (or others) are against this solution, it's just that when you are in a hurry you run the risk of neglecting prudence or other possibilities ... nothing is completely safe or certain if not sufficiently tested.
Caution.
@seamus26 avatar
UTC

Ossessionato
1979 P200E (sold) / ZNEN Amore 150 (sold) / Genuine Buddy 170i / Genuine Stella 4T /Aprilia Sportcity One 50
Joined: UTC
Posts: 2463
Location: Grand Rapids, MI
 
Ossessionato
@seamus26 avatar
1979 P200E (sold) / ZNEN Amore 150 (sold) / Genuine Buddy 170i / Genuine Stella 4T /Aprilia Sportcity One 50
Joined: UTC
Posts: 2463
Location: Grand Rapids, MI
UTC quote
Dooglas wrote:
I've been driving an EV as my primary vehicle for 7 years now. I expected reduced fuel costs and cleaner operation with battery power. No one had stressed to me the difference in maintenance and repair costs. It is quite dramatic.
I'm glad you pointed that out. Until recently we had three cars, a truck and four scooters. In the corner of my garage I have a five gallon bucket and probably another five gallons in bottles of used oil that needs to be taken back for recycling.

One of my draws toward EVs is less maintenance. Electric motors just run. Until they don't, of course, but the maintenance time/cost is significantly lower.
@petercc avatar
UTC

Molto Verboso
Piaggio Beverly 300 ie - 2012
Joined: UTC
Posts: 1246
Location: Belgium
 
Molto Verboso
@petercc avatar
Piaggio Beverly 300 ie - 2012
Joined: UTC
Posts: 1246
Location: Belgium
UTC quote
Stromrider wrote:
The ULEZ is a brilliant way of cutting air pollution. Most Londoners agree. It's the unseen particulate matter that's the problem along with nox and it kills huge numbers of people. In fact ULEZ is working so well that other major cities in the UK have and are adopting the same approach. Bring on electric!
It is said that LEZ is improving air quality but that seems in practice to be hardly the case.

Last year due to Covid in March - April in the first lock-down here in BE car traffic dropped by upto 85%. An experiment that would be unthinkable under normal conditions.

The IRCEL, the government institute here that monitors air quality, published an article on the effects of that huge traffic drop on the quality of the air.

They used the trends for NOx, explaining that NOx is the contaminant best linked to ICE engines, they did not choose particulate matter explicitely because as they explain the link to ICE is too weak. If the effect on NOx cannot be found then for sure it will not be found on PM is their reasoning.

Anyway, now the conclusion: they could not prove an effect.

It comes as a big surprise to me.

So I have been looking for more and came across this report from the University of Birmingham: https://research.birmingham.ac.uk/portal/files/18559478/Holman_Harrison_Querol_Review_efficacy_low_emission_Atmospheric_Environment_2015.pdf .
It is a report from 2015, studying a lot of LEZ all over Europe. Also in this report the effect of LEZ on air quality is non existing or in best case very weak.

It seems to me there is a big difference between theoretical calculations and practice. Which is actually very good news. We can just simply skip all this LEZ thing and stop hampering people for no good reason.

What is a bit strange is that this information is already known for 5 years or longer and does not make it to the general public, left alone the policy makers.
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