OP
UTC

Molto Verboso
2023 Genuine Buddy 125
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Molto Verboso
2023 Genuine Buddy 125
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UTC quote
So my Liberty 150 has a oil filter. I always change the oil every 3000ish miles, and I just hit 18,000 miles. But I skip the oil filter every other oil change. Lazy and really don't worry about it. My Honda Helix never came with a oil filter and it hit 90,000 trouble free miles before getting totaled. So why the title on the thread? I write the miles on the filter with a Sharpie when I change it. The filter I pulled off had 9000 miles written on it. Scooter runs great and nothing weird in the oil. And don't ask about that little pre-filter thing behind the drain hole. I just realized it was in there! It was clean and clear. So, why do these scooters have an oil filter for? The 9000 mile old filter I pulled off was clean on the inside. No sludge or anything questionable was found inside of it.
@znomit avatar
UTC

Veni, Vidi, Posti
LX190 Friday afternoon special, [s]Primavera[/s], S50, too many pushbikes
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@znomit avatar
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UTC quote
sc00ter wrote:
The filter I pulled off had 9000 miles written on it. Scooter runs great and nothing weird in the oil.
Exactly.
@attila avatar
UTC

Veni, Vidi, Posti
In garage: Yamaha Tricity 155 Urban 2019 - MV Agusta 125 RS 1956
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Veni, Vidi, Posti
@attila avatar
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UTC quote
The oil is clean because there is a filter.
Saw the filter in half and see if there is any dirt inside.
UTC

Ossessionato
2016 Vespa GTS300ie abs/asr/ess Settantesimo '70'
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Ossessionato
2016 Vespa GTS300ie abs/asr/ess Settantesimo '70'
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UTC quote
Your engine is wearing out all the time. This wear produces microscopic metal particles so small you cannot see them with the naked eye but they get trapped in the filter elements inside the filter. If they did not get trapped there the engine would wear much more quickly.

Many early smaller Hondas had centrifugal oil filters, a chamber where the oil was pumped and spun around very quickly to remove metal particulate matter from the oil. This 'filter' always looked clean when looking at it and the walls of the filter looked spotless. However, if you took a sharp bladed instrument and carefully scraped the walls of the filter you could remove a smooth layer of metal fillings.

The filter is there for a very good reason. They work and make your engine last and last.
@old_as_dirt avatar
UTC

Veni, Vidi, Posti
2007 GTS
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Veni, Vidi, Posti
@old_as_dirt avatar
2007 GTS
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UTC quote
sc00ter wrote:
So my Liberty 150 has a oil filter. I always change the oil every 3000ish miles, and I just hit 18,000 miles. But I skip the oil filter every other oil change. Lazy and really don't worry about it. My Honda Helix never came with a oil filter and it hit 90,000 trouble free miles before getting totaled. So why the title on the thread? I write the miles on the filter with a Sharpie when I change it. The filter I pulled off had 9000 miles written on it. Scooter runs great and nothing weird in the oil. And don't ask about that little pre-filter thing behind the drain hole. I just realized it was in there! It was clean and clear. So, why do these scooters have an oil filter for? The 9000 mile old filter I pulled off was clean on the inside. No sludge or anything questionable was found inside of it.
its your scooter , do as you wish.
@xantufrog avatar
UTC

Moderibbit
1980 P200E - "Old Rusty", 1976 ET3 Primavera
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Moderibbit
@xantufrog avatar
1980 P200E - "Old Rusty", 1976 ET3 Primavera
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UTC quote
Yeah - oil filters will tend to filter the oil
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UTC

Molto Verboso
Vespa GTS300ie
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Molto Verboso
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UTC quote
Having an oil filter fitted = 6000 mile oil change intervals .
Other scooters with just a mesh filter need oil changes from 2000-3000 mile intervals .
@znomit avatar
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Veni, Vidi, Posti
LX190 Friday afternoon special, [s]Primavera[/s], S50, too many pushbikes
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@znomit avatar
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UTC quote
You're changing the oil too often at 3,000miles. Service interval for oil and filter is 10,000km.
⚠️ Last edited by znomit on UTC; edited 1 time
@attila avatar
UTC

Veni, Vidi, Posti
In garage: Yamaha Tricity 155 Urban 2019 - MV Agusta 125 RS 1956
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@attila avatar
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UTC quote
Better each 6000 km.
@kshansen avatar
UTC

Molto Verboso
GTV300 (wife's)
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Molto Verboso
@kshansen avatar
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UTC quote
Stromrider wrote:
Many early smaller Hondas had centrifugal oil filters, a chamber where the oil was pumped and spun around very quickly to remove metal particulate matter from the oil.
Talk about a flash back! That reminded me of my second motorcycle, a 175 Honda and it had one of those centrifugal oil filters! That fine "sludge" was hard to clean out at times.

As to not changing filters. I guess I look at them as an insurance policy. It only takes one time for something to go wrong to pay for all the filters you would have used.

Hope your luck holds out!
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UTC

Molto Verboso
Piaggio Beverly 300 ie - 2012
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Molto Verboso
@petercc avatar
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UTC quote
kshansen wrote:
(...)
As to not changing filters. I guess I look at them as an insurance policy. It only takes one time for something to go wrong to pay for all the filters you would have used.
(...)
You are absolutely, 100% right.
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Moderatus Rana
MP3 250 and 2 MP3 500s
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Moderatus Rana
@stickyfrog avatar
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UTC quote
Stop doing filter changes and ride on just doing oil changes and report back. You may be on to something. A breakthrough maybe. A new engine or new scoot prematurely most likely.
@motovista avatar
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Veni, Vidi, Posti
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UTC quote
This is complicated. Recently, and much to my surprise, I found myself the owner of a Yamaha with one of their newer small displacement (155cc) liquid cooled fuel injected motors. Yamaha is regarded throughout the industry as one of the most reliable motorcycle and scooter lines in the world. I was very surprised to find out it doesn't have an oil filter. And people get high mileage out of this little motor, while working it hard, with relatively few mechanical failures.
On the other hand, every Vespa and Piaggio four stroke has an oil filter, and they are not known for being particularly robust, compared to Japanese or Taiwanese scooters.
I think the best way to see how important an oil filter is to the life expectancy of an engine would be to compare two scooters with the same engine, where one has an oil filter and the other doesn't.
Fortunately, that can be done, more or less.
If you look through the parts catalog of any Genuine 125-150, you will see that they use a lot of Kymco parts in their engines. It's basically a first generation Kymco GY6. And they use the same spin on oil filter as Vespa, Piaggio. So, all else being equal, would a Genuine air cooled 150 last longer than a Taiwan built Kymco air cooled 150?
Whether or not a scooter has a replaceable oil filter is probably not the best indicator of how long the engine will last.
OP
UTC

Molto Verboso
2023 Genuine Buddy 125
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Molto Verboso
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UTC quote
I seems I change the filter every odd number oil change, and must have missed it last time, hence the 9000 miles written on it while I'm at 18,000. It's done and caught up, and I'll continue to change the oil every 3000ish miles and do the oil filter every other oil change.

But I miss my simple Helix oil change sometimes. And the screen self released itself, unlike the hidden screen on the Liberty. I usually replace my scooters at 30,000 miles so if I get that I'll be happy, more miles will be a bonus. I love my Liberty but hate doing services in the bug infested heat!
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UTC

Sergeant at Arms
Weird 80's Vespas & Cool Vintage Lambrettas
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UTC quote
stickyfrog wrote:
Stop doing filter changes and ride on just doing oil changes and report back. You may be on to something. A breakthrough maybe. A new engine or new scoot prematurely most likely.
Most oil filters, and engines to that point, have a pressure by-pass. When it gets too funky and gunky it just rolls right thru and you get all that junky back in the motor.

No matter the design. Change your oil, change your filter (if you have one) it's the cheapest insurance you can buy.
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UTC

Sergeant at Arms
Weird 80's Vespas & Cool Vintage Lambrettas
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@greasy125 avatar
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UTC quote
Motovista wrote:
This is complicated. Recently, and much to my surprise, I found myself the owner of a Yamaha with one of their newer small displacement (155cc) liquid cooled fuel injected motors. Yamaha is regarded throughout the industry as one of the most reliable motorcycle and scooter lines in the world. I was very surprised to find out it doesn't have an oil filter. And people get high mileage out of this little motor, while working it hard, with relatively few mechanical failures.
On the other hand, every Vespa and Piaggio four stroke has an oil filter, and they are not known for being particularly robust, compared to Japanese or Taiwanese scooters.
I think the best way to see how important an oil filter is to the life expectancy of an engine would be to compare two scooters with the same engine, where one has an oil filter and the other doesn't.
Fortunately, that can be done, more or less.
If you look through the parts catalog of any Genuine 125-150, you will see that they use a lot of Kymco parts in their engines. It's basically a first generation Kymco GY6. And they use the same spin on oil filter as Vespa, Piaggio. So, all else being equal, would a Genuine air cooled 150 last longer than a Taiwan built Kymco air cooled 150?
Whether or not a scooter has a replaceable oil filter is probably not the best indicator of how long the engine will last.
The court will now hear Roller Bearing v Oil Bearing

Opening arguments if you will…
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Veni, Vidi, Posti
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UTC quote
The defense would like to call Dr Amsoil to the stand...
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Red Devil SH150i (10,000)
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Ossessionato
@breaknwind avatar
Red Devil SH150i (10,000)
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UTC quote
The Honda SH150i doesn't have an oil filter(oil screen). Oil changes are at 2500 miles. I use Honda GN4 oil at $10 a quart. That's 1/2 cent per mile. Maybe I should buy some cheaper non-motorcycle oil to save cost, NOT!
@attila avatar
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@attila avatar
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UTC quote
breaknwind wrote:
The Honda SH150i doesn't have an oil filter(oil screen). Oil changes are at 2500 miles. I use Honda GN4 oil at $10 a quart. That's 1/2 cent per mile. Maybe I should buy some cheaper non-motorcycle oil to save cost, NOT!
The filter there is, it is together with the drain plug and it is mesh. Only to be cleaned and reassembled, on my Yamaha it is the same thing.
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Banned
2006 GTS 250
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UTC quote
xantufrog wrote:
Yeah - oil filters will tend to filter the oil


Click here 🛵=infinite wisdom
@attila avatar
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Veni, Vidi, Posti
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@attila avatar
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UTC quote
For real? And why are they called filters?
Facepalm emoticon
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Molto Verboso
Piaggio Beverly 300 ie - 2012
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Molto Verboso
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Piaggio Beverly 300 ie - 2012
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UTC quote
Attila wrote:
For real? And why are they called filters?
Facepalm emoticon
It goes back to Old-French "feutre" and medievil Latin "filtrum" and it refers to a piece of felt that was used to strain impurities from a liquid. https://www.etymonline.com/word/filter
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Molto Verboso
Vespa GTS300ie
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UTC quote
The Americans invented it apparently Clap emoticon

We Invented The Oil Filter

In 1923, Ernest Sweetland and George H. Greenhalgh patented the first automotive oil filtration system. They called their invention "Purolator", short for the words "pure oil later", and they began a story of quality and innovation that continues to this day.

While the original Purolator filtered oil through twill-weave cloth, in 1946, Purolator introduced a pleated paper oil filter – a technology still being used today.


Nearly 100 years and still asking " Why do I need one " Facepalm emoticon
@wleuthold avatar
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Veni, Vidi, Posti
2006 Vespa GT (Rocket): 2007 Vespa GT (Vanessa): 2009 Yamaha Zuma 125: 2018 Yamaha Xmax (Big Ugly), 2023 Vespa GTS300 (Ghost)
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@wleuthold avatar
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UTC quote
My Yamaha Xmax has a tiny oil filter.

The owners manual says to change it every other change. 3000 miles for oil, 6000 miles for the filter.

I bought the first filter from the dealer for nearly $20. Then found Malossi filters from Motovista were $20. for a package of four.

They are easy to change so I do it with every oil change.

They recommend Yamalube 10W-40 oil. The dealer used standard, non synthetic, so I do too. $20 per gallon.

It is uncomfortable to go beyond the recommended change interval as the dash blinks "OIL SERVICE!!!" Until resetting.

As for the oil strainer at the oil drain plug on Vespas, I had the dealer strip the drain plug hole threads when Rocket was new. At the time I changed the engine out at 76,000 miles (not oil related) the strainer hadn't been seen in 70,000 miles.

Bill
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Hooked
Primavera 150
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Hooked
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UTC quote
I had a 64 chevy truck with a reman straight six that they quit manufacturing in 62 in it. The engine had an extra large oil pan (6 qt) and no oil filter. The purpose of the extra large pan was to collet the sludge and there was a lot of it the first time that I changed the oil.

Modern oils have detergents in them to clean the bearing surfaces of the engine and the particles are suspended in the oil until it passes through the filter. Engines today have very close tolerances and a few particles may cause a lot of damage over time.

Change the oil and filter per the manufacturers recommendation. Piaggio doesn't make any money off of your oil and filter change, but they earn a lot of good will when there are a bunch of high mileage scooters out there.

Who knows your engine best?
@znomit avatar
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Veni, Vidi, Posti
LX190 Friday afternoon special, [s]Primavera[/s], S50, too many pushbikes
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@znomit avatar
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UTC quote
You don't need to ever change your filter, or oil for that matter, as long as you're using Rotella.
@jimc avatar
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The Hornet (GT200, aka Love Bug) and 'Dimples' - a GTS 300
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@jimc avatar
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UTC quote
znomit wrote:
You don't need to ever change your filter, or oil for that matter, as long as you're using Rotella.
Or just use Snibbo (the universal panacea).
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Addicted
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Addicted
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UTC quote
Well, in MY day almost all of my vehicles that had points ignition had no replaceable oil filters. That includes three cars and about 18 bikes. You kids are lucky to have em.
Git off my lawn now.
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Molto Verboso
Dongfang 170cc, CF Moto Fashion 250
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Molto Verboso
@kz1000st avatar
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UTC quote
I don't doubt that filters are important but I can't discount the better oil in use these days. I can remember taking a long time scrapping sludge out of my VW Beetles and a few other crap boxes. People who managed to reach 100,000 miles in the sixties and seventies were changing their multiple quarts of oil every thousand miles. Crappy 50cc Chinese scooters are reaching 20k every day and they don't even have paper filters. I'm pretty sure better lubricants are responsible.
@znomit avatar
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Veni, Vidi, Posti
LX190 Friday afternoon special, [s]Primavera[/s], S50, too many pushbikes
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UTC quote
kz1000ST wrote:
I'm pretty sure better lubricants are responsible.
Manufacturing tolerances have improved significantly too.
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2016 Vespa GTS300ie abs/asr/ess Settantesimo '70'
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2016 Vespa GTS300ie abs/asr/ess Settantesimo '70'
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UTC quote
jimc wrote:
Or just use Snibbo (the universal panacea).
Ah yes...universal panacea! Tested many times and found to be the very best.. ROFL emoticon These days it's in pretty short supply.
UTC

Ossessionato
2016 Vespa GTS300ie abs/asr/ess Settantesimo '70'
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UTC quote
Many of you will know this but for those that don't, the reasons engines last so long these days are multiple. Yes oil is one of those reasons, and yes better oil filters. But over overwhelmingly too, it's the design of engines and the materials used AND much better manufacturing processes.

Example: engines of yesteryear were mostly very 'long stroke engines'. That is the length of the piston stroke was much longer than the measurement of the width of the cylinder bore. This meant the engines could produce enough power to satisfy riders and drivers. The engines would rev low but produce quite a lot of power. Remember, they didn't have fuel injection or other smart features so a long stroke served to produce more power.

The unfortunate thing about long stroke engines is they are lumbered with very high piston speeds per revolution of the crankshaft, and suffer from very high inertial forces during operation. Both of these things create lots of engine wear. It was not uncommon for engines to wear out relatively quickly even though they rev low overall.

Long stroke engines are still designed today but with much reduced length of stroke. And indeed many machines (cars and bikes) use a short stroke engine where the cylinder bore measurement is wider than the length of the piston stroke, especially here in europe.

These shorter stroke engines have the advantage of much lower piston speeds (measured in distance over time) and very low inertial forces during operation (even at high engine revs) meaning much lower engine wear and stress on the engine. That's inspite of the short stroke engine needing to rev much higher to produce it's power. In addition, many modern engines now use "offset crankshafts" to improve power and reduce all types of engine wear particularly piston and cylinder wear and bore ovalling. Crankshaft wear is also reduced.

A typical example of how length of stroke works is to reflect on my old Triumph Bonneville 650 of 1969 vintage. Nice bikes but the engines wore out in 30-35,000 miles needing rebore and new pistons and rings and new shell bearings. Didn't matter how much you changed the oil, it happened! The Triumph was a long stroke engine with high piston speed. Yet my 1973 Honda CD175 happily romped to 50,000 miles and was still fit to ride without needing any mechanical work on it whatsoever. The difference between the two aside from the size of the engines was that the little Honda had a very short stroke low inertia engine. It revved it's nuts off but this meant it still had a very low piston speed compared to a long stroke motor at the same rpm thanks to the short stroke (the pistons only travelled a short distance up and down the cylinders). The roller bearing crank and big ends also helped in that engine (that's not always the case though). Plain bearing can be just as good or even better in some circumstances.

This is a simplified version. There's more but not enough room here. With the advent of modern oils that are very specific to our machinery needs, it's the reason why our scooter engines can reach very very high mileages and without needing major engine work.

Diesel engines...similar story but with a few differences to mention. But that would be another thread.
@attila avatar
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Veni, Vidi, Posti
In garage: Yamaha Tricity 155 Urban 2019 - MV Agusta 125 RS 1956
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@attila avatar
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UTC quote
Stromrider wrote:
Example: engines of yesteryear were mostly very 'long stroke engines'. That is the length of the piston stroke was much longer than the measurement of the width of the cylinder bore. This meant the engines could produce enough power to satisfy riders and drivers. The engines would rev low but produce quite a lot of power. Remember, they didn't have fuel injection or other smart features so a long stroke served to produce more power.

One of the problems of the old engines was to keep the number of revolutions low at idle and to maintain a regular regime due to the (low) quality of the fuels and the not very sophisticated carburetors ... but they worked and that was enough.
With long-stroke engines at (relatively) low engine rpm, the problems of low compression ratios were solved.
With the improvement of the fuels and the reduction of friction using better engine oil and better mechanical processing during the construction phase, it was possible to increase the power by also increasing the number of revolutions by building square stroke engines (bore and stroke equal); to overcome the irregular idling, flywheels of the crankshaft were designed differently and the idling speed was raised, at the same time in Italy two petrol types were used, based on the octane number, two qualities were offered for sale: the normal, cheaper, with 84 ÷ 86 octane and super or super fuel, usable in engines with higher compression ratios and better performances and more expensive, with 98 ÷ 100.
The long stroke to be more powerful had to be with high displacement but (the British teach us) it was better to split the displacement by reducing the stroke, thus building twin-cylinder, better if with parallel pistons.
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MV Santa
GTS250, 1975 VBC, 1980 P200E cutdown
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@vintage_red_matthew avatar
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UTC quote
Just an observation:

My first car was a 54 Chevy. When the motor was first designed it had no oil filter.

Later, filters were added. There was a canister mounted to the intake manifold that had a replaceable element. There was a pressurized oil line running to the canister and a drain running back to the oil pan with a restriction to control the amount of oil going through the filter.

Back then you were lucky to get 80K miles before the engine needed a rebuild. As it wore out the oil pressure would drop as the bearing clearances opened up. Towards the end you would unhook the filter because it used some of the oil flow from the oil pump and that reduced the pressure even more. If you unhook the filter you should start saving up for a new motor or car.

On modern motors the oil goes from the pump directly to the filter then to the motor. If the filter is clogged a valve bypasses the oil to the motor unfiltered.
@jimc avatar
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Moderaptor
The Hornet (GT200, aka Love Bug) and 'Dimples' - a GTS 300
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@jimc avatar
The Hornet (GT200, aka Love Bug) and 'Dimples' - a GTS 300
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UTC quote
Stromrider wrote:
Ah yes...universal panacea! Tested many times and found to be the very best.. ROFL emoticon These days it's in pretty short supply.
Likewise Threadgold's Thorough-grip Garterettes.

Which might have made good oil filters of course. Razz emoticon
@attila avatar
UTC

Veni, Vidi, Posti
In garage: Yamaha Tricity 155 Urban 2019 - MV Agusta 125 RS 1956
Joined: UTC
Posts: 8291
Location: Latina (Italy)
 
Veni, Vidi, Posti
@attila avatar
In garage: Yamaha Tricity 155 Urban 2019 - MV Agusta 125 RS 1956
Joined: UTC
Posts: 8291
Location: Latina (Italy)
UTC quote
Even olive oil can be found filtered or not.
⬆️    About 6 months elapsed    ⬇️
OP
UTC

Molto Verboso
2023 Genuine Buddy 125
Joined: UTC
Posts: 1160
Location: Norfolk, VA
 
Molto Verboso
2023 Genuine Buddy 125
Joined: UTC
Posts: 1160
Location: Norfolk, VA
UTC quote
So I finally figured out why I didn't change the oil filter. I had a bunch of the Buddy filters with the hex/socket head on them, but somehow the box got tossed in the trash. Now Piaggio has these new filters without the slot or socket end on them, and I had no way to put a new filter back on, so I just left the old one on there. Well, I just did another oil change but still don't have a way to tighten a new filter. I ordered the tool tonight for the next oil filter change. That filter will have 12,000 miles on it when I finally pull it off at the 24,000 mile service. So that was the reason I haven't been changing the filter.......
@mopedlar avatar
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Addicted
2001 GTS Super (white), 2021 GTS Super (yellow), 1976 Bianchi Snark moped, 1980 General 5 Star moped
Joined: UTC
Posts: 754
Location: Powhatan, Virginia
 
Addicted
@mopedlar avatar
2001 GTS Super (white), 2021 GTS Super (yellow), 1976 Bianchi Snark moped, 1980 General 5 Star moped
Joined: UTC
Posts: 754
Location: Powhatan, Virginia
UTC quote
sc00ter wrote:
So I finally figured out why I didn't change the oil filter. I had a bunch of the Buddy filters with the hex/socket head on them, but somehow the box got tossed in the trash. Now Piaggio has these new filters without the slot or socket end on them, and I had no way to put a new filter back on, so I just left the old one on there. Well, I just did another oil change but still don't have a way to tighten a new filter. I ordered the tool tonight for the next oil filter change. That filter will have 12,000 miles on it when I finally pull it off at the 24,000 mile service. So that was the reason I haven't been changing the filter.......
Where did you get the oil wrench from? My new 300 Super has that style oil filter on it and I didn't know if a slip joint pliers would get it off.
@greasy125 avatar
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Sergeant at Arms
Weird 80's Vespas & Cool Vintage Lambrettas
Joined: UTC
Posts: 14961
Location: The state of insanity, SoCal
 
Sergeant at Arms
@greasy125 avatar
Weird 80's Vespas & Cool Vintage Lambrettas
Joined: UTC
Posts: 14961
Location: The state of insanity, SoCal
UTC quote
I've used slip joints for years. 9.5" craftsman (#45381) without a hint of a problem.

the 197 filter (and some K&N, Motion Pro) have the 22mm nut which is nice, especially on buddy's

you should be fine.
OP
UTC

Molto Verboso
2023 Genuine Buddy 125
Joined: UTC
Posts: 1160
Location: Norfolk, VA
 
Molto Verboso
2023 Genuine Buddy 125
Joined: UTC
Posts: 1160
Location: Norfolk, VA
UTC quote
Mopedlar, from AF! Racing.

Burzetti Oil Filter wrench D49x14

Sku # BZ5110

$21.99
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