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Lurker
ET2
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ET2
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UTC quote
Hi, I'm a newbie to this forum. I ride a Piaggio Vespa ET2 (and commute all year round) and just trying to get some clarity on which fuel I should be using. While E10 seems to be the most common, it seems that my 50cc scooter should be using E5 which is the equivalent of the more expensive super unleaded. It wont make that much difference when filling up my small tank, but with is being less available than E10, I don't want to risk engine problems if I can only use E5.

Looking at the Gov.UK website, it says that Piaggio recommend using E5 for 50cc models but they haven't published a definitive list yet.

Has anyone actually used E10 on a 50cc ET2 and have you experienced any problems? Thanks in advance.
@jakem avatar
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Addicted
Vespa Sprint Sport S 125cc
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UTC quote
This website mentions a few modifications that can be done - including using different hoses for the fuel system; https://www.hagerty.co.uk/articles/maintenance-and-gear/everything-you-need-to-know-about-using-e10-fuel-with-your-classic-car/

It also mentions that cars from 2011 have had to be able to run E10 fuel. I assume this would be the same for bikes as well?

It would be interesting to know if Italy uses E5 or E10 petrol.
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Molto Verboso
Piaggio Beverly 300 ie - 2012
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Molto Verboso
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UTC quote
JakeM wrote:
This website mentions a few modifications that can be done - including using different hoses for the fuel system; https://www.hagerty.co.uk/articles/maintenance-and-gear/everything-you-need-to-know-about-using-e10-fuel-with-your-classic-car/

It also mentions that cars from 2011 have had to be able to run E10 fuel. I assume this would be the same for bikes as well?

It would be interesting to know if Italy uses E5 or E10 petrol.
Italy uses both E10 and E5 as everywhere in the EU.
Now if Piaggio does not recommend using E10 on its 50cc models, I would run it on E5.
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Vespa PX125
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UTC quote
There is no way I am using E10 fuel in my 2016 PX125 even if the powers that be state its 🆗 to use. The difference in price for E5 is negligible when it only takes approx £10 to fill my tank so E5 it is.
@attila avatar
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As I said in another thread, the greater quantity of ethanol (E 10) "could" dilute the oil in the fuel mixture too much and not properly lubricate the combustion chamber.
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Attila wrote:
As I said in another thread, the greater quantity of ethanol (E 10) "could" dilute the oil in the fuel mixture too much and not properly lubricate the combustion chamber.
All the more reason not to use E10. I say avoid like the plague.
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UTC quote
Go by octane. Ethanol at 10% or lower is nearly irrelevant if you ride the thing.
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Vespa PX125
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Madison Sully wrote:
Go by octane. Ethanol at 10% or lower is nearly irrelevant if you ride the thing.
Already in the UK there have been numerous reports of cars lack of performance and sputtering engines. From my understanding the main danger is leaving vehicles standing with E10 in the engines thus forming a sludge in the carburettor and also whereby it attacks the modern plastics. Imo best to just boycott and pay the little extra for E5 or using Shell high octane. Like I said I'm not even risking it in any of my Vespas and a lot of my friends will not put it in their cars.
@attila avatar
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Jonny Ray wrote:
Already in the UK there have been numerous reports of cars lack of performance and sputtering engines. From my understanding the main danger is leaving vehicles standing with E10 in the engines thus forming a sludge in the carburettor and also whereby it attacks the modern plastics. Imo best to just boycott and pay the little extra for E5 or using Shell high octane. Like I said I'm not even risking it in any of my Vespas and a lot of my friends will not put it in their cars.
I'm thinking of cars and motorbikes over twenty years old, they will need an additive in tablet to add to each refueling ... and it's not paranoia.
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Vespa PX125
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Attila wrote:
I'm thinking of cars and motorbikes over twenty years old, they will need an additive in tablet to add to each refueling ... and it's not paranoia.
Yeah I realise that I've seen some products that you put in the petrol tank being sold on ebay. Pretty inexpensive too.
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1980 Vespa P200e (sold), 2002 Vespa ET4 (sold), 1949 Harley-Davidson FL
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@caschnd1 avatar
1980 Vespa P200e (sold), 2002 Vespa ET4 (sold), 1949 Harley-Davidson FL
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The histaria around E10 is way overblown. We can only buy E10 (or higher) for street use in my state (Arizona). I used E10 in my 1980 P200e and never had a single problem. I use E10 in my 1949 Harley-Davidson and never have a problem. E10 has been commonly sold here in the USA for at least 15 years. It's a safe fuel to use. The only downside I know of is that it goes bad very quickly compared to fuel with no Ethanol.

-Craig
@attila avatar
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UTC quote
... HDs would also digest fuel oil ...
American Vespa PXs with separate mixer may be able to make up for different fuel but 99% of PX sold in Italy did not have a mixer and it is easy for them that the percentage of oil in the fuel is not perfect.
UTC

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2016 Vespa GTS300ie abs/asr/ess Settantesimo '70'
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UTC quote
Jonny Ray wrote:
Already in the UK there have been numerous reports of cars lack of performance and sputtering engines. From my understanding the main danger is leaving vehicles standing with E10 in the engines thus forming a sludge in the carburettor and also whereby it attacks the modern plastics. Imo best to just boycott and pay the little extra for E5 or using Shell high octane. Like I said I'm not even risking it in any of my Vespas and a lot of my friends will not put it in their cars.
I've not heard of any cars lacking performance Jonny but it is possible this could happen temporarily because E10 is very effective at cleaning the fuel system when you first put it in which, like fuel injector cleaner, can make an engine run rough for the first couple of days or so. In fact, the change over in the UK is going very well and of course, many garages took on E10 at the end of July and during August, ready for Sept 1st, the day by law that they had to offer it. I started using it in July from my local garage without any negative effects on my cars or bikes. Most folks didn't even know they were using it because they didn't read the signs in the garages. Using it in a car or bike that is not designed for it once or twice will not harm the engine or other parts in the fuel system.

As you say, it's really only the fact it goes off more quickly compared to E5 that is the area of concern for most folks. But this is really only if you leave your car or bike standing about for weeks at a time. And lets not forget E5 goes off relatively quickly too. E5 starts to go bad after just 6 weeks but still remains useable for a few more weeks. E10 goes off earlier at about 4 weeks or so, but still remains useable. The one thing to do with ALL fuel, including non ethernol fuels is to shake the tank about a bit to mix the additives and prevent the engine from sucking large amounts of the sticky muck that builds at the bottom of the tank. Your engine will also cope better with the tiny amounts of water at the bottom of the tank if you mix the fuel with a shake rather than letting it induct "laying" water from the bottom of the tank.

Don't forget it reduces particulate matter in our environment (a main consideration) and reduces CO2 because it comes from renewable sources. The particulate matter is as dangerous as white asbestos according to the WHO. It's a win win situation, just not everyone knows it yet! As said above in anther post, E10 problems are vastly overplayed even by some so called professionals on the internet.

EDIT: just a note. More and more of our ethernol in the Uk is produced from waste products. This also has the effect of reducing ozone gases.
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Molto Verboso
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I'm trying to work out how to "shake" my car tank before starting it ROFL emoticon
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UTC quote
caschnd1 wrote:
The histaria around E10 is way overblown. We can only buy E10 (or higher) for street use in my state (Arizona). I used E10 in my 1980 P200e and never had a single problem. I use E10 in my 1949 Harley-Davidson and never have a problem. E10 has been commonly sold here in the USA for at least 15 years. It's a safe fuel to use. The only downside I know of is that it goes bad very quickly compared to fuel with no Ethanol.

-Craig
Same in California. It's so common that I didn't even realize it was true until I saw your post. (Some places have stickers saying "contains up to 10% ethanol," but even the ones without the sticker are required to include ethanol.) The only place I know of that sells ethanol-free is Renner in the redwoods. They charge something like an extra $1 per gallon, and will only dispense it into a container; you aren't allowed to put it directly in your tank.

Anecdotally, I did see an increase in MPG when using ethanol-free gas, but not enough to justify going out of your way for it (in either money or time/distance).
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super-fly wrote:
I'm trying to work out how to "shake" my car tank before starting it ROFL emoticon
Yes, this could be rather difficult to do I guess but it does pay dividends. I just start the motor and then move her forwards and backwards stopping a little abruptly. You don't need to do much, just get the fuel to slop around a bit. It makes all the difference. In my case my cars don't sit very long, usually no more than a couple of days. I don't need to shake the fuel about unless I go away for a couple of weeks and leave the cars standing in the garage. Same with my bikes. They are in use all the time so no need to do any shaking.
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UTC quote
E10 will give 3-4% less mpg than non-ethanol so not a big deal from that perspective. Especially since E10 is cheaper than non-ethanol.

Performance is negligible since adding ethanol really only increases octane which has nothing to do with power. The important thing is to use the correct octane rating for your engine regardless of the presence of ethanol.

Except for older engines and maybe some small engines used for lawn equipment the only big problem with gas containing alcohol is water absorption and this is only a problem if you don't ride regularly or are putting your scooter in storage. You will want to ad something like Stabil in this case.

Is it all worth it? It is still debatable whether E10 or E15 is having the impact on reducing emissions as many hoped. This is especially true of ethanol derived from corn. But it does expand the market for corn farmers so...

Fun fact. Refineries are producing gasoline with lower octanes to supply pipelines to account for the increased octane resulting from adding ethanol. This is one of the reasons it is harder to find pure gasoline.
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Molto Verboso
Vespa GTS300ie
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Molto Verboso
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UTC quote
Guess I will have to do the old 2 stroke tank shake then if scooter has sat for a few days .

Btw This year was the first time my gts300 was hard to start after being stored over winter , It also stalled a couple of times , New fuel cured this so must have been the old E5 ?
@petercc avatar
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Molto Verboso
Piaggio Beverly 300 ie - 2012
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Molto Verboso
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UTC quote
super-fly wrote:
Guess I will have to do the old 2 stroke tank shake then if scooter has sat for a few days .

Btw This year was the first time my gts300 was hard to start after being stored over winter , It also stalled a couple of times , New fuel cured this so must have been the old E5 ?
Can be the case. As stated here earlier ethanol has the tendency to absorb water from the ambient air.
In winter I tank E5. I never know beforehand what the weather will be and how long I will not be able to drive the scooter. E5 also contains ethanol, but less than E10.
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2016 Vespa GTS300ie abs/asr/ess Settantesimo '70'
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UTC quote
You have to remember that the ethanol in petrol already has water in it when you pump it at the garage. It's in the alcohol. As said it does also attract water vapour. The actual difference in this water content between the UK E5 and E10 is minimal and won't bother anyone using any vehicle in normal use. In fact the evidence is that many engines run better on E10 due to that very slight increase in water vapour. This improves the combustion process in many engines promoting a better flame front. This often leads to more power and improved mpg in some engines. The advantage too is reduced particulate matter and some reduction of other emissions.
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