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Some HPEs are notorious for their oil consumption. Mine (touch wood) hasn't consumed a drop so far; but I'm using the throttle very gently so I'm waiting to see how it works after the running in period is over.

This Vespista from Germany claims that his Sei Giorni HPE consumed around 800mls per 1000 kms (which is shocking) so he used a 15w-50 grade oil for a 7000km journey he made around Southern Europe and all he lost was 300mls. This might be a solution to those of you whose HPEs guzzle oil like V8s guzzling gas... or maybe not?

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The only vehicle I ever bought new was my 2008 mazda 5. manual says 5-20w oil. I have been using 15-40 pretty much its whole life. it has 130k on it now. engine is perfect shape. I do live in a hot climate. had I lived in a cold climate I likely would have stayed with factory recommendations.

oil recommendations have got thinner over the years and its because machining and oil clearances have gotten more precise with smaller clearances for the oil to push through.

In the case of the vespa using oil like crazy. I wouldnt hesitate to use a thicker oil. something is clearly NOT machined or fitting close for it to use oil so fast. but thats what I am compfy with in my hot climate.
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I used a straight 50w in an old Buick Regal I had. It had compression issues and leaked. The 50w helped with both ... but it was an old Buick.

Would using the wrong grade oil void a warranty?
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seamus26 wrote:
Would using the wrong grade oil void a warranty?
Just don't tell whoever takes care of your scooter ... Or you can complain that you don't have to do maintenance because you are not a qualified Piaggio technician.
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seamus26 wrote:
I used a straight 50w in an old Buick Regal I had. It had compression issues and leaked. The 50w helped with both ... but it was an old Buick.

Would using the wrong grade oil void a warranty?
definitely - unless the dealer okays it... but I can't see anyone taking responsibility for such a drastic oil change. This isn't a simple switch to, let's say, 10w40
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jerryd wrote:
oil recommendations have got thinner over the years and its because machining and oil clearances have gotten more precise with smaller clearances for the oil to push through.

The recommended oil has gotten thinner over the years because of CAFE requirements. If you want to see this in action, pick a modern Japanese car that is sold around the world. Get the US owners manual, then get one for somewhere else. I recently purchased a 2019 Mitsubishi, and the US owners manual specifies 0-20, whereas the one for the world version has the old fashion chart with different weights, from 0-20 to 20-50 depending on the climate. I really don't think they drill out larger holes in the engines for the oil to flow through for the rest of the world, even though Stromrider will be alongshortly to say thats exactly what they do where he lives.
If you sell 1,000,000 cars, thinner oil does help with corporate average fuel economy. In your personal car, it probably works out to about a mile per tankful. If you don't change your own oil, be prepared for an argument when you go to the oil change place and tell them to put in 10-40 instead of 0-20, even though it's 102 degrees outside.
Most people don't remember this, but when Aprilia was buying engines from Piaggio, they recommended 15-50 in the air cooled Leader.
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Yep, fuel economy and prolonging the life of the catalytic converter too, apparently
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motovista, of engines I have worked on through my career

1970 vw bug engines stock have crank bearing clearance of .003 with .004 for a wear limit.

1980 porsche engines were at .002.

1990 4g63 engines and crank bearing clearance is .001-.0015.

I stand by my statement. bearing clearances have shrunk. piston to wall also shrunk just as much. .004 down to .001
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I read somewhere that Malossi recommend grade 50 oil for their V4 cylinder/head kit, and that is what I've been using for years in both my converted GTS300s. My older scooter uses a bit of oil and has to be topped up after any long or high speed run. The other hardly uses a drop.
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Huh.





An oil thread..





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jerryd wrote:
motovista, of engines I have worked on through my career

1970 vw bug engines stock have crank bearing clearance of .003 with .004 for a wear limit.

1980 porsche engines were at .002.

1990 4g63 engines and crank bearing clearance is .001-.0015.

I stand by my statement. bearing clearances have shrunk. piston to wall also shrunk just as much. .004 down to .001
Jerry is correct. Factory machine tolerances have narrowed considerably over the last couple of decades, measured in microns rather than thousanths of an inch. Irregularities with fits and limits allowed to components are also much less now. Because of this you generally need a thinner oil to lubricate properly. Of course, this fits in with the "extra mpg" we all want too. Use of a thicker oil in ambient temps will reduce lubrication of the motor due to reduced flow rate, raising the temperature of some components and increasing wear when the motor is hot and cold. That is unless in a very hot climate under arduous conditions. But very few folks need to ever use a thicker oil than recommended by the manufacturers and this angle is vastly over played by folks.

There is also a myth that thicker oil lubes best because that oil will have a stronger oil film strength and therefore will be better. That's not often the case. Many 0-20 fully syn oils can easily outlast and out perform thicker oils. My own car runs 0-20 fully syn and the oil film strength is approaching 88,000psi measured using international standards and methods. Yet my previous car, a BMW used a 5-30 long life fully syn oil with an OFS of 79,000 psi. The flow rate of the 0-20 is far superior as is the OFS.

However, the use of a thicker oil to prevent too much oil being used is a valid one. But these days that would really be the main reason to use it due to the above mentioned disadvantages. The HPE would no doubt be fine on a 10-40 fully syn. I doubt a 15-50 is doing the motor any good other than reducing oil consumption. Something the 10-40 would do also but without the other big disadvantages.

Motovista, see you are still having trouble with the keyboard and you seem to have misunderstood Jerry.
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NSR but years back, Dodge came out with the Hemi that could switch to 4 cylinders under certain conditions. The trucks were spec'd out with 0W-20. The dealer told me that the Hemis that were so equipped, the 4 cylinder shut off wouldn't operate correctly with heavier oil.
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jerryd wrote:
motovista, of engines I have worked on through my career

1970 vw bug engines stock have crank bearing clearance of .003 with .004 for a wear limit.

1980 porsche engines were at .002.

1990 4g63 engines and crank bearing clearance is .001-.0015.

I stand by my statement. bearing clearances have shrunk. piston to wall also shrunk just as much. .004 down to .001
Yes, they have. And compression has increased, oil change intervals have extended and HP/CC has increased considerably. And engines still wear out and oil still goes out of grade with time and wear.
And none of this explains why the Manufacturers are telling us in the US one thing and that part of the world that doesn't have CAFE or similar standards something else. Do they not want engines in other countries to last as long as they do in the US? Or are they making different recommendations because they don't have to adhere to CAFE standards, and only need to consider what is best for the engine?
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okay. but a vw engine needed 20/50. 10/30 and the low oil pressure light would come on at idle in the heat of florida. try some 0-20w. let me know what happens.

there is a huge difference in oil pressure with different oil weights when you have a gauge and your looking at it. there is a substantial difference in oil pressure with an engine built with .002 or .003 clearances.


I dont know much about oil weight recommendations for different countries. but I can tell you the oil stock in japan is FAR superior to oil quality available in USA. I have dismantled enough 4g63 engines run in both countries. it blows me away how good the insides of a japan run engine or trans will look like inside. far less wear. machined parts that look like chrome.

it was one of my secrets to successful 600hp 2.3l builds. start with cores from japan domestic market
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"Full synthetic 5W-40 motor oil is formulated to flow like 5 Weight oil from a cold start in winter temperatures and like 40 Weight oil once the engine has reached its normal operating temperature." (Source Castrol.com)

So far, I have been running my Vespas on 5W40 - which is the same grade as my Subaru Forester.
Being retired now, travelling less and on a reduced monthly budget, I am looking at 10W40 instead.
I don't know how it compares to other countries, but in South Africa,
5 litres of Total fully synthetic 5W40 costs ZAR495 whereas semi-synthetic 10W40 cost ZAR335 ! What The? emoticon

With Pretoria's winter temperatures seldom dropping below Zero C an hour after sunrise, I don't have the cold start problem that less temperate climates have.
Many fuel stations on lesser travelled routes don't stock fully synthetic oils anyway so I have to carry my top-up oil along on the journey.
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In my Fiat car (16 valves bi fuel, petrol / lpg) the recommended oil is 0W - 30W; in my scooter is a semi-synthetic 10W - 40W.
In the W85 GL3 gearbox.
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Stromrider wrote:
However, the use of a thicker oil to prevent too much oil being used is a valid one. But these days that would really be the main reason to use it due to the above mentioned disadvantages. The HPE would no doubt be fine on a 10-40 fully syn. I doubt a 15-50 is doing the motor any good other than reducing oil consumption. Something the 10-40 would do also but without the other big disadvantages.

Motovista, see you are still having trouble with the keyboard and you seem to have misunderstood Jerry.
Three paragraphs in and you speak with your own voice. You know as much as anyone here how to paraphrase what you have googled and make it yours, You know why SG was the last oil made with the engine in mind, and you sure as hell know why manufacturers of motor vehicles make different recommendations for different markets. They do what works best for them, not you. These are the same people who calculate death rates vs $ every time they mess up
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Motovista wrote:
Three paragraphs in and you speak with your own voice. You know as much as anyone here how to paraphrase what you have googled and make it yours, You know why SG was the last oil made with the engine in mind, and you sure as hell know why manufacturers of motor vehicles make different recommendations for different markets. They do what works best for them, not you. These are the same people who calculate death rates vs $ every time they mess up
After over 42 years as a tech and engine design & development engineer which included working side by side with tribologists, there isn't much google can tell me Motovista. But I think you clearly should spend more time on it! Clap emoticon
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Madison Sully wrote:
Huh.

An oil thread..

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Yes...

Definitely an oil thread...

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jerryd wrote:
okay. but a vw engine needed 20/50. 10/30 and the low oil pressure light would come on at idle in the heat of florida. try some 0-20w. let me know what happens.

there is a huge difference in oil pressure with different oil weights when you have a gauge and your looking at it. there is a substantial difference in oil pressure with an engine built with .002 or .003 clearances.


I dont know much about oil weight recommendations for different countries. but I can tell you the oil stock in japan is FAR superior to oil quality available in USA. I have dismantled enough 4g63 engines run in both countries. it blows me away how good the insides of a japan run engine or trans will look like inside. far less wear. machined parts that look like chrome.

it was one of my secrets to successful 600hp 2.3l builds. start with cores from japan domestic market
Completely correct jerry.

You don't really want the oil pressure light to come on at idle if using a thinner oil so it's right not to use these newer thin oils as you say. Those motors were not designed for it.

As you will know jerry, one of the things we do use now in modern engines is lightweight low friction pistons. These are especially predominate in small to medium size engines here in europe and no doubt in the States. You can hear the pistons rattle on start up especially on a cold morning due to the extra piston clearance between the cylinder and skirts of the piston. They also use a low spring pressure piston ring to reduce cylinder wall friction. As the motor warms up the pistons "swell" into the cylinder creating an almost completely gas tight seal with very tight tolerances. To further reduce engine wear on both the topend and bottom end of the engine we switched to "offset" cranks in many of our engine designs which increases power, reduces fuel consumption and emissions, but reduces cylinder and piston wear by as much as 20% over any given mileage. Many bikes use this as do many car engines now. It's any interesting area of engineering.

Unfortunately this can create issues with oil dilution during warm up of the motor as greater amounts of piston blowby occur during warm up. Neat and partially unburned petrol (or diesel) get blasted down into the sump where it contaminates the oil. So long periods of idle to warm up the motors are not recommended. Drive off straight away and there is usually no issue with this. But some manufacturers have had big problems with oil dilution as you probably know. Thicker oils don't really help that situation much either.
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Burt37 wrote:
Yes...

Definitely an oil thread...

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It can't be, there isn't enough bickering or name calling. You twat.

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znomit wrote:
It can't be, there isn't enough bickering or name calling. You twat.

Popcorn emoticon
Who are you calling a twat,... you drongo... ROFL emoticon

PS

Now seriously what oil do you use?

Nah! wait...

Don't really care...

Popcorn emoticon
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Ok, now this thread is gaining some traction.

I only use Royal Purple because it's the best.

(throws gas on fire and runs away)
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jerryd wrote:
1980 porsche engines were at .002.
I've read somewhere about racing Porsches of yore running with diesel fuel in the sump as a lubricant.
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Being an engineer must be exhausting. We commoners owe a great deal to those who discuss oil in molecular detail. I tend to buy oil in white jugs. Maybe blue.
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Topolino wrote:
We commoners owe a great deal to those who discuss oil in molecular detail.
...and virus...
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waspmike wrote:
I've read somewhere about racing Porsches of yore running with diesel fuel in the sump as a lubricant.
thats interesting. I havent ever heard that but could be true. oil does get into combustion chamber. and that is destructive to combustion. replacing oil with diesel would effectively make more power. super thin though so engine longevity would seriously suffer. racers dont care much about that when winning is all that matters.
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Topolino wrote:
Being an engineer must be exhausting. We commoners owe a great deal to those who discuss oil in molecular detail. I tend to buy oil in white jugs. Maybe blue.
Arh...yes that's your problem! Only ever buy it in the black jugs... And make sure it's the small molecules, NOT the big ones. You should then be fine. ROFL emoticon
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seamus26 wrote:
Ok, now this thread is gaining some traction.

I only use Royal Purple because it's the best.

(throws gas on fire and runs away)
Rotella... anyone???
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Synthetic or dinosaur base? There's really no comparison...

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25BIKEZ wrote:
Synthetic or dinosaur base? There's really no comparison...

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Thing is, in the US, refined dinosaur goo can be called synthetic.
Unlike the rest of the .... I mean, unlike the civilized world.
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Burt37 wrote:
Rotella... anyone???
Rotella… Everyone!!!
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znomit wrote:
Rotella… Everyone!!!
It's the greatest nectar, the only need, the simple ....

Oh, wait, it isn't 15W50.

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jerryd wrote:
thats interesting. I havent ever heard that but could be true. oil does get into combustion chamber. and that is destructive to combustion. replacing oil with diesel would effectively make more power. super thin though so engine longevity would seriously suffer. racers dont care much about that when winning is all that matters.
Could be Jim Clarke or Jackie Stewart?
"The perfect engine is one that blows up just when you cross the line"
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jerryd wrote:
thats interesting. I havent ever heard that but could be true. oil does get into combustion chamber. and that is destructive to combustion. replacing oil with diesel would effectively make more power. super thin though so engine longevity would seriously suffer. racers dont care much about that when winning is all that matters.
Try it My guess is you won't make it around the block.
The noise at the end would be interesting, a mechanical death rattle.
@attila avatar
UTC

Veni, Vidi, Posti
In garage: Yamaha Tricity 155 Urban 2019 - MV Agusta 125 RS 1956
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@attila avatar
In garage: Yamaha Tricity 155 Urban 2019 - MV Agusta 125 RS 1956
Joined: UTC
Posts: 8291
Location: Latina (Italy)
UTC quote
Don't get caught up in paranoia ... Follow the instruction manual and everything will be fine (+ or -).

PS: The higher ignition point in the diesel will ensure that the engine will only ignite for a few revolutions and the subsequent residual diesel (who will still have entered the combustion chamber) will no longer allow ignition. We might as well put some water in it ...
So I expect 30 seconds of operation and no more.
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@motovista avatar
GT 2.4
Joined: UTC
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Location: Watts, Cherokee Nation
UTC quote
Non capisci. I boludi stanno parlando di cambiare l'aciete per il diesel, non per la benzina.
@attila avatar
UTC

Veni, Vidi, Posti
In garage: Yamaha Tricity 155 Urban 2019 - MV Agusta 125 RS 1956
Joined: UTC
Posts: 8291
Location: Latina (Italy)
 
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@attila avatar
In garage: Yamaha Tricity 155 Urban 2019 - MV Agusta 125 RS 1956
Joined: UTC
Posts: 8291
Location: Latina (Italy)
UTC quote
Ah no, I understood but I did not understand the reason for the speech. If following the maintenance rules to the letter keeps us from going crazy where is the point other than getting pissed?
@motovista avatar
UTC

Veni, Vidi, Posti
GT 2.4
Joined: UTC
Posts: 8850
Location: Watts, Cherokee Nation
 
Veni, Vidi, Posti
@motovista avatar
GT 2.4
Joined: UTC
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Location: Watts, Cherokee Nation
UTC quote
stanno discutendo se sia possibile sostituire l'aciete con il diesel
There is no reason, I just want to be there when one of them does it.
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