Mon Jul 12, 2010 5:16 am

Member
Gilera Fuoco 500 i.e.
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Location: cascina-pisa-toscany-italy
 
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Gilera Fuoco 500 i.e.
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Location: cascina-pisa-toscany-italy
Mon Jul 12, 2010 5:16 am linkquote
A modification to increment the live of the bearings sistem on the lateral steering of mp3 scooter

One of the fragile point in the great three wheels sistem of the Mp3 family is in the lateral Steering tube of the anterior sospention
In a significant numbers of case the beering sistem inside this component have premature comsumption and a short live hafter 25000-30000 km of use the steering bicame strange
the symtoms are a strange sensation on the center of the handlebar rotation,same difficult and impreccision in the low velocity turn,in same case oscillation and meanderings of the scooter
caused by the anterior steering sistem,a general lost of feeling and precision with the anterior of the tripod

for example this is the state of the inferior beering seat of an mp3 after the disassembly


Damaged inferior beering seat of mp3



Last edited by simonzeb on Mon Jul 12, 2010 6:01 am; edited 1 time in total
Mon Jul 12, 2010 5:20 am

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Gilera Fuoco 500 i.e.
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Location: cascina-pisa-toscany-italy
 
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Mon Jul 12, 2010 5:20 am linkquote
One of the principal cause of this problem is the rapidly lost of grease in this component and the impossibility too reffill it easilly and periodically
The original project of piaggio not predictet this inconvenient and the greasing operation is difficolt riquires to dissassembly a lot of scooter plastic cover and riquired time and money

My Gilera Fuoco (MP3 500 ) in recent time have the first symptoms of this problem and i have do a relativelly simple modification too enable a quick and easy possibility too greese
the bearing without dissasemble the vehicle with few money time and tools

This is my proposal ,in few word is a system to install same grease points on Mp3 steering system

The operating principle
This bolts are the center of the modification ,by this two points are possible accede at the bearing seat


bolts location

Mon Jul 12, 2010 5:23 am

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Gilera Fuoco 500 i.e.
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Gilera Fuoco 500 i.e.
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Mon Jul 12, 2010 5:23 am linkquote
This is the change made to the bolts
In practice, it makes a hole through the entire nut of 2mm diameter
then bore hole on the side of the bolt head and moves to 4.7 mm in diameter to a depth of 4 \ 5 mm approx.
This part of the hole is then threaded by passing a male metric thread M6 threaded into place to enable the installation of a small ejector for grease linear type with closure by little sphere,
tighten everything well and you're done the mod nut


modicated bolt


this is the tecnical draw of the modification of the nut

Mon Jul 12, 2010 5:25 am

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Gilera Fuoco 500 i.e.
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Location: cascina-pisa-toscany-italy
 
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Gilera Fuoco 500 i.e.
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Mon Jul 12, 2010 5:25 am linkquote
I have done the mod direcly the series nut that are M10 exagonal head nut galvanized with a 30mm stem strength class 8.8
to compensate the slight weakening caused by the change can be used instead of bolts standard ,higt strength bolts of the same type, with strength class of 10.9
Actualy i use the standard 8.8 mod nut and have done more then 3000km no problem that occurs
I did make holes and thread from a machinist friend of mine by lathe machine,this is the best system to do the modify but what can be done easily too with a comun hobby column drill.

How it works
A friend work as piaggio dealers lent me a lateral Steering tube of an mp3 for illustrate the principe of the system

see below how well the modificated bolt enabling the greaser grease injection almost immediately near the steering bearing seats
with the steering column installed and injected into the sistem grease by pressure is possible to fill the entire cavity


the modificated bolt enabling the greaser grease injection almost immediately near the steering bearing seats



Last edited by simonzeb on Mon Jul 12, 2010 5:46 am; edited 1 time in total
Mon Jul 12, 2010 5:28 am

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Gilera Fuoco 500 i.e.
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Mon Jul 12, 2010 5:28 am linkquote
Here is the procedure for installing the update:

1 Place the tripod to a maximum tolerable limit possible inclination without tipping the scooter and block it by roll lock(If you need more angle you can pick up the tripod with a wheel on a sidewalk or you can do to help a friend or support veycle leaning it against a wall)
Be careful not to push too strong to the scooter that is now precariously balanced, an excessive pressure on the key can lead to imbalances,ballasted to the limit on the other side or get help from someone who sustains the means for the short period in which loosen and tighten bolts
in the last picture you see the bolts in question (the one above is already a modified one the over one below is standard bolts)



Mon Jul 12, 2010 5:29 am

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Gilera Fuoco 500 i.e.
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Gilera Fuoco 500 i.e.
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Mon Jul 12, 2010 5:29 am linkquote
2 you shall remove the old bolts with a socket wrench



Mon Jul 12, 2010 5:31 am

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Gilera Fuoco 500 i.e.
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Mon Jul 12, 2010 5:31 am linkquote
3 It is screwed into place the nuts modified ,being careful to put in place the washers ,and tighten everything with torque wrench the workshop manual requires a tighten to 45-50 Nm, who did not have the torque wrench can do same attention at the torque effort necessary to loosen the original bolts, and will appreciate that the tightening required is quite light, in every case make attention, not tight to death!



Mon Jul 12, 2010 5:32 am

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Gilera Fuoco 500 i.e.
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Mon Jul 12, 2010 5:32 am linkquote
4 At this point grease the bearings it's so easy, you can do when you want in only 2 minutes without any tools except for the grease gunif accessibility is a bit limited as on the MP3 250/400, you can always resort to trick to climb with a wheel on a sidewalk to allow access to boltsconnects the grease gun on each bolt and pump grease until it exits the bottom of the boat for the nut low, and higher border for the high one



Mon Jul 12, 2010 5:33 am

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Gilera Fuoco 500 i.e.
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Mon Jul 12, 2010 5:33 am linkquote
With this change the bearing sistem become regreasable at will whenever you want to do, this should allow him to live much more working olways still lubricatedFurthermore, since the headstock is practically full of grease, then there will be no usable space to let water and dirt,when this happened then with just another little pomp up of grease and dirt is fired out!!The excess of grease can pour a little more after the first phase of adjustment, although this may happen it falls on the front fenders not on the wheels it's easy remove it with some solvent and a rag
Materials:
Mon Jul 12, 2010 5:36 am

Ossessionato
Mp3 500
Joined: 14 Mar 2008
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Location: Denver Colorado
 
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Mp3 500
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Mon Jul 12, 2010 5:36 am linkquote
Simon--this is great and something worth doing it seems. I wonder if it is possible to have someone ( a Machine shop) create a number of these bolts, as best as they can be made, and have them available to the forum here?
Having a machine shop make one might be impossible ( they will not want to do that) but make 50? Maybe so.
Thank you for this post and your time spent!
Mon Jul 12, 2010 5:43 am

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Gilera Fuoco 500 i.e.
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Mon Jul 12, 2010 5:43 am linkquote
Equipment needed for the change:
The price is refered at euro market Italian central zone industry materials

N 4 bolts M10x35mm strength class 10.9 anodized (17cent for one)
N 4 grease gun injector for grease gun Type M6 (12cent for one)

Tools need to do the modify by drilling macine:

N1 drill ø 2mm N1 drill ø 4,7mm (4EUR)
N1 Male Thread M6 metric (8EUR)

Materials for greasing:

N1 manual grease gun cartridge type (15EUR)
N1 a 500gr. cartridge of grease special industrial type for shocking and subjected to impact bearing (6EUR)

for those who wanted to be doing work on the bolts to a milling machine my friend told me that he thinks this is a job for 30 \ 40 EUR to modify the 4 bolts

Clearly if it did make a good amount of material and processing down the costs significantly that could do it by someone equipped with a CNC lathe for example.

Who does not want to bay everything from whether or not you would buy the grease after the modify may demand a pomp up of grease at the bearing in any car or motorcycle shop, the attack is standard for al conventional grease gun

The material you can find easily in a good hardware store specializing in industrial material

After this modify the steering sistem of my Fuoco now are like the new one
Al the sintomus of steering problem are disappeared

At tuday have done more then 3000 km whit the mod on the scooter whitout any problem

Action Plan are to greese the sistem every two months and see As it action can extend the life of bearings

Hoping to be helpful

Saluti by Simone alias Simonzeb from italy
Mon Jul 12, 2010 5:55 am

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Gilera Fuoco 500 i.e.
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Mon Jul 12, 2010 5:55 am linkquote
I am actualy most looking forward to find someone who can do the labor at cheap industrial price ,but I do not think are convenient made the bolt here in italy and then send it USA
in any case will keep you informed
Mon Jul 12, 2010 6:11 am

Banned
MP3 500
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Mon Jul 12, 2010 6:11 am linkquote
You're not leaving the drilled bolt in are you? You have a weakened bolt by drilling a hole through it. Great way to grease the bearings, but this is just a tool that needs to be removed and the original bolt put back.
Mon Jul 12, 2010 7:27 am

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Gilera Fuoco 500 i.e.
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Mon Jul 12, 2010 7:27 am linkquote
StooterBoy wrote:
You're not leaving the drilled bolt in are you? You have a weakened bolt by drilling a hole through it. Great way to grease the bearings, but this is just a tool that needs to be removed and the original bolt put back.
Its 'correct the bolt have a little bit of weakened,
bat are not so stressed element it work only for close and centre the sistem the real work are doing by the welded element of the steering tube and by the quadilateral alloy sistem ad by the other more than ten bolt that connect these pieces.
Have speak of the modify with same friend work for piaggio project boreau they have been assured me that mp3 front sospention have a lot of safety factor more than normal because at the time of design there were no data on this type of vehicle,currently could lighten it a lot but now the pieces are in production and not change them for economic reasons.
I actualy use the normal 8.8 class bolt modified to test the modify and in 3000 and more km in all condiction, no problem ,
if do the defitive version do the mod on a 10.9 higth resistence bolt this compensate the little weakened of the modify

The principe of the mod is to grease bearing in no time(2min max)and to do this the mod is permanent attached to the vehicle,i can do the grease operation use only the grease gun,if i put up and down the bolt i need tools ,more time(10min)and to place the scooter in the box ecc.
Not are a big difference bat is the difference to do grease op. every 2 months or only one or two time in the year ,
perhaps enough? maybe not?
only the km of road will give us the answer
I think keep the bearings lubricated and cleaned often can serve
Mon Jul 12, 2010 7:52 am

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2009 MP3 400
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2009 MP3 400
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Mon Jul 12, 2010 7:52 am linkquote
Just to be clear, this modification does not require drilling into the tube assembly, but merely replacing the OEM bolts with new bolts, drilled and fitted with Zerks? How is it that there are holes in the tube at just the right spots?

Mon Jul 12, 2010 8:13 am

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Red MP3 500 RUBY DRAGON
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Red MP3 500 RUBY DRAGON
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Mon Jul 12, 2010 8:13 am linkquote
I've had mine for some time. I grease then remove greaser bolt and re-install original bolt, just like the original thread on this. If you need one, get me a count, I'll see what I could do. I just need to cover my costs(minimal) with shipping being the biggest cost I assume. Probably around $5.00 with shipping or less.
Mon Jul 12, 2010 8:35 am

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Gilera Fuoco 500 i.e.
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Mon Jul 12, 2010 8:35 am linkquote
ramblerdan wrote:
Just to be clear, this modification does not require drilling into the tube assembly, but merely replacing the OEM bolts with new bolts, drilled and fitted with Zerks? How is it that there are holes in the tube at just the right spots?

The modification exploits the fact that the steering tube in the area where the bolts pass through have already holes drilled and pass just above and below the bearings ,
is a stroke of luck
the steering tube is already done so
have modificated only the bolts

this is because the tube are fixed with 4 fixing points to the quadrilateral
hardware that work must be geometrically aligned pairs perfectly, to achieve this ,by aligning the two holes are made through the entire tube with a single drill bit,
and then there are the holes troght the tube for the working
piaggio do this gratis for my modification on al mp3 family steering tubes

Last edited by simonzeb on Mon Jul 12, 2010 12:55 pm; edited 2 times in total
Mon Jul 12, 2010 8:39 am

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'09 Mp3-500 - Gone Now
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Mon Jul 12, 2010 8:39 am linkquote
mjm50cal wrote:
I've had mine for some time. I grease then remove greaser bolt and re-install original bolt, just like the original thread on this. If you need one, get me a count, I'll see what I could do. I just need to cover my costs(minimal) with shipping being the biggest cost I assume. Probably around $5.00 with shipping or less.
Well then, count me in!
Mon Jul 12, 2010 8:58 am

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fuoco 500 centenario
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fuoco 500 centenario
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Mon Jul 12, 2010 8:58 am linkquote
Great idea!
Nice work!
Mon Jul 12, 2010 9:44 am

Moderatus Rana
MP3 250 and 2 MP3 500s
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Moderatus Rana
MP3 250 and 2 MP3 500s
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Mon Jul 12, 2010 9:44 am linkquote
Nice write up! So is it safe to leave them in?

@mjm50cal I will take 4 assuming the same size bolt is used on the 250...anyone know?
Mon Jul 12, 2010 9:44 am

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2009 MP3 400
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Mon Jul 12, 2010 9:44 am linkquote
simonzeb wrote:
the bolts pass through have already holes drilled and pass just above and below the bearings ... the steering tube is already done so have modificated only the bolts
This is terrific news. No worries about getting metal shavings in the bearings then.

If anyone does a run of these bolts, I'd be in for a set.
Mon Jul 12, 2010 10:32 am

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MP3 400 LT
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Mon Jul 12, 2010 10:32 am linkquote
ramblerdan wrote:
If anyone does a run of these bolts, I'd be in for a set.
+1

The same here!!
Mon Jul 12, 2010 11:27 am

Veni, Vidi, Posti
RIP: MP3 500 - Brutto Moto
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Mon Jul 12, 2010 11:27 am linkquote
mjm50cal wrote:
I've had mine for some time. I grease then remove greaser bolt and re-install original bolt, just like the original thread on this. If you need one, get me a count, I'll see what I could do. I just need to cover my costs(minimal) with shipping being the biggest cost I assume. Probably around $5.00 with shipping or less.
I would think there'd be a bigger danger taking them in and out - the grease *will* get on teh threads and could cause stretching when torqued. Hell I'd leave it in. It seems to be mostly axial stresses - there's little or no no shear involved. Second - how does this take care of both bearings?
Mon Jul 12, 2010 12:47 pm

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Gilera Fuoco 500 i.e.
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Mon Jul 12, 2010 12:47 pm linkquote
BubbaJon wrote:
mjm50cal wrote:
I've had mine for some time. I grease then remove greaser bolt and re-install original bolt, just like the original thread on this. If you need one, get me a count, I'll see what I could do. I just need to cover my costs(minimal) with shipping being the biggest cost I assume. Probably around $5.00 with shipping or less.
I would think there'd be a bigger danger taking them in and out - the grease *will* get on teh threads and could cause stretching when torqued. Hell I'd leave it in. It seems to be mostly axial stresses - there's little or no no shear involved. Second - how does this take care of both bearings?
you can grease al two bearings
because when filling the steering tube at the end of the operation the grease leaking from both ends of the tube
and then by force passed through the bearings
when the pump bolt down the grease comes out from the bottom of the tube
when you do it out on top bolt the grease came out from the top of the steering tube
when you do the operation the first time you'll need almost a whole cartridge of grease for al 4 bolts (500g)
after to fill and clean the grease Just a few grams

clearly whether to grease the bearings are forced to take down, then use a very thick grease, because you can not restore it
In this case, I used grease more fluid used in bearing very stressed and subjected to impact
with this system if the grease comes out you replace easily
Mon Jul 12, 2010 1:00 pm

Hooked
MP3 500
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Location: ohio
 
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MP3 500
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Mon Jul 12, 2010 1:00 pm linkquote
GREAT work. I am really interested in the higher strength bolts...and how does this effectively grease both bearings? I think $10 or $15 per set is a very fair price considering all the work someone has to do with setting up the process. I'd bet even dealers would be interested in installing them as an "option". Keep us informed. Nice job. Very nice.
Mon Jul 12, 2010 2:10 pm

Molto Verboso
MP3 500 08
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Mon Jul 12, 2010 2:10 pm linkquote
Will gladly pay someone for their time and effort. Count me in on a set also if they become available.
Mon Jul 12, 2010 2:31 pm

Hooked
MP3 400, 2008 build, purchased 2009 ex demo.
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Mon Jul 12, 2010 2:31 pm linkquote
Seems a great idea and I would certainly order a set of modified bolts if they were available.
Mon Jul 12, 2010 2:40 pm

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MP3 400ie
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Location: Melb, Australia
 
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Mon Jul 12, 2010 2:40 pm linkquote
I would also grab a set if someone can get them made. If it extends the life ofnthe bearings then it will pay for itself many times over.

//Dennis.
Mon Jul 12, 2010 2:48 pm

Addicted
MP3-250 Tiger 1050 Moto Guzzi V7 Stone
Joined: 21 Nov 2007
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Location: Central Coast, California
 
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Mon Jul 12, 2010 2:48 pm linkquote
I'd be in for a set if they are the same on the 250 as the 500.
Mon Jul 12, 2010 3:14 pm

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Gilera Fuoco 500 i.e.
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Mon Jul 12, 2010 3:14 pm linkquote
Zinfan wrote:
I'd be in for a set if they are the same on the 250 as the 500.
These particolar bolt are the same in al the mp3 family
mp3 125-250-300-400-500 rst and lt version gilera fuoco 500 and mp3 hybrid 125-and 300
Al the tripod have the same pices in the front sospention in that zone
Mon Jul 12, 2010 3:19 pm

Ossessionato
Mp3 500
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Mon Jul 12, 2010 3:19 pm linkquote
My mechanic/friend John has a machinist who could likely do it. If someone else wants to go for it, that is fine too. I want one someway or other!
Mon Jul 12, 2010 3:39 pm

Veni, Vidi, Posti
Neutrino MP3 492.7 AK, 2013 Moto Guzzi Norge
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Neutrino MP3 492.7 AK, 2013 Moto Guzzi Norge
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Mon Jul 12, 2010 3:39 pm linkquote
this mod is very very nice. Kudos to simonzeb for posting pics and install directions. Now it is off to the dealer to order some new bolts and get a mod done.
Mon Jul 12, 2010 5:28 pm

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The Hornet (GT200, aka Love Bug) and 'Dimples' - a GTS 300
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Mon Jul 12, 2010 5:28 pm linkquote
May I inject a cautionary word here.

The 'notch' is eff-all to do with lack of grease - grease isn't actually important for these bearings - there should be enough to keep crap out, but that's it. The actual surfaces that meet have no grease between them - they are static surfaces in the main, and there probably isn't a molecule of grease left between them, even after the treatment above. It's metal to metal. If there's room for grease - they're too loose.

The one single, big problem is the pre-load applied to these bearing at manufacture (and in the first iteration of the workshop manual - by workshops).

Zero pre-load - no problem for life unless the rider hits a big pot-hole or whatever. The damage is done by axial impacts, nothing more, nothing less.

This is not a mod I would bother with or give a second thought to.
Mon Jul 12, 2010 11:24 pm

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Gilera Fuoco 500 i.e.
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Mon Jul 12, 2010 11:24 pm linkquote
jimc wrote:
May I inject a cautionary word here.

The 'notch' is eff-all to do with lack of grease - grease isn't actually important for these bearings - there should be enough to keep crap out, but that's it. The actual surfaces that meet have no grease between them - they are static surfaces in the main, and there probably isn't a molecule of grease left between them, even after the treatment above. It's metal to metal. If there's room for grease - they're too loose.

The one single, big problem is the pre-load applied to these bearing at manufacture (and in the first iteration of the workshop manual - by workshops).

Zero pre-load - no problem for life unless the rider hits a big pot-hole or whatever. The damage is done by axial impacts, nothing more, nothing less.

This is not a mod I would bother with or give a second thought to.
issues and considerations are correct ask
but the effects of a lack of grease is that the bearings do not rotate on themselves
This brings you always work the same points
plus completely dry and this leads to friction direct metal to metal
if there is a lot of grease bearings has a small chance to turn a minimum on itself as it works
This allows distributed in better way the effort on the material surface

There is still a fact
before making changes to my gilera had serious steering problems.
I was convinced of need to change the bearings.
the change was the last desperate effort before spending more than EUR 350 from mechanical
It worked ,Gilera with grease bearing now work as a new one
I can not be sure it is the definitive solution but for now it worked
I'm trying to understand if an accurate lubrication can be a definitive solution of the problem
It's possible but this response can only give me the time and distance
with this change I have the means to keep these verification in easy ceap and cleanly way
Mon Jul 12, 2010 11:48 pm

Member
Gilera Fuoco 500 i.e.
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Location: cascina-pisa-toscany-italy
 
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Mon Jul 12, 2010 11:48 pm linkquote
A note
I think one of the causes of the problem to the bearings
is that Piaggio has underestimated the goodness of driving skills on three wheels scooter!
with a standard two-wheels scooter you tend to avoid obstacles on the road surface
if I see a hole and are on two wheels, for survivol reason ,or avoid, or we step carefully over at low speed
On three wheels ,obstacles are absorbed very easily and then driving style changes
On Gilera the eventually hole on road, i ram it directly without conseguent or high-speed run over it,
I know that the scooter allows me to do it safely
So with the three-wheel road obstacles are dealt with differently
These scooter allows a different approch to the road more direct and hard for the meccanic
the bearings that are very similar to those of ordinary two-wheel they can not do the same and are over stressed
This for my are the fondament of the question same mechanical elements under sized compared to the true use of these new vehicles
which were not known until the end the real possibilities of use
HIMO
Tue Jul 13, 2010 4:28 am

Ossessionato
Mp3 500
Joined: 14 Mar 2008
Posts: 2320
Location: Denver Colorado
 
Ossessionato
Mp3 500
Joined: 14 Mar 2008
Posts: 2320
Location: Denver Colorado
Tue Jul 13, 2010 4:28 am linkquote
UFO used to do a similar greasing of his bike, and swore it helped the issue.
Since this is a relatively inexpensive and seeming simple mod, it seems to have little downside. Probably not the ultimate fix, but I think I would do it anyway, considering the real life findings of two good members here. I would
NEVER discount the word of JimC, who I hold as a great authority on mechanical things, but again, seems little downside if someone wants to do it.

My friend John commented:

Actually, the biggest problem is that the style bearing they used for this is really meant to be constantly rotating, not sitting in the same spot with load on it. It's the steel bearing equivalent of bed sores. However, extra grease can't hurt.

So, is anyone willing to get a few made to specs? Or should I look into it?
Tue Jul 13, 2010 4:38 am

Ossessionato
'09 Mp3-500 - Gone Now
Joined: 19 Feb 2009
Posts: 2065
Location: Happy Valley, Oregon
 
Ossessionato
'09 Mp3-500 - Gone Now
Joined: 19 Feb 2009
Posts: 2065
Location: Happy Valley, Oregon
Tue Jul 13, 2010 4:38 am linkquote
Rob In Denver wrote:
....seems little downside if someone wants to do it.
...However, extra grease can't hurt.

So, is anyone willing to get a few made to specs? Or should I look into it?
I do not have the time myself to look into having them fabricated but if you or another MV'er does so, I definitely would like a set. I think you will see a lot of interest here which should bring costs down with economies of scale. The downside is the distribution effort required.
Tue Jul 13, 2010 5:38 am

Ossessionato
Mp3 500
Joined: 14 Mar 2008
Posts: 2320
Location: Denver Colorado
 
Ossessionato
Mp3 500
Joined: 14 Mar 2008
Posts: 2320
Location: Denver Colorado
Tue Jul 13, 2010 5:38 am linkquote
Exactly---my wife would think me insane, to go to all the trouble for the simple good of the forum. But maybe... I will ask about costs.
Tue Jul 13, 2010 5:45 am

Ossessionato
Red MP3 500 RUBY DRAGON
Joined: 29 Nov 2008
Posts: 2626
Location: Northern CA
 
Ossessionato
Red MP3 500 RUBY DRAGON
Joined: 29 Nov 2008
Posts: 2626
Location: Northern CA
Tue Jul 13, 2010 5:45 am linkquote
I'll make 40 for MP3's in USA. I can make more if demand is there. No issues.
Someone needs to remove a bolt on the 250 and measure it and post your findings.

Another reason to do it is that it keeps out water, and there for oxidation, which can really eff things up. Especially if you live near a coast.

So little money to do it. So little time to do it. I don't see it as a fix, I see it as preventative maintenance. I see it as a no brainer.

Last edited by mjm50cal on Fri Aug 26, 2011 9:39 pm; edited 1 time in total
Tue Jul 13, 2010 5:47 am

Ossessionato
Red MP3 500 RUBY DRAGON
Joined: 29 Nov 2008
Posts: 2626
Location: Northern CA
 
Ossessionato
Red MP3 500 RUBY DRAGON
Joined: 29 Nov 2008
Posts: 2626
Location: Northern CA
Tue Jul 13, 2010 5:47 am linkquote
Do you want grade 5 or grade 8 bolts? Straight, 45 or 90 degree zerks?
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