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Stromrider wrote:
Balancing the power from different sources is becoming easier. The point to remember is that at night we don't need anywhere near as much electricity as during the day as the majority of industry slows or stops production at night, households sleep. But EV's will increasingly consumer more electricity during the night. And that's ok. With turbines in the north sea their is a fairly constant and consistent production of electricity due to the off shore environment both day and night, but of course, there is less wind at night. Although this summer wasn't as good as last year for maximum electricity production due to more variable weather conditions and we had to use more nuclear, some extra gas, and solar to make up for it. But this is why everyone wants and needs a range of electricity sources. That includes nuclear of course and it's nuclear that can take over more than comfortably at night. In emergencies we will still have gas and oil for a while yet ready to kick in when needed. But it's renewables that will lead the way from now on. For instance there are plans to build many more very very large solar farms here in the UK. These will use the new cheaper, more robust, 50% more efficient, longer lasting, night time generating solar panels. They are also more enviromentally friendly with less toxic substances in their make up. These panels only provide small amounts of power at night but will provide enough to be valuable extra power at night. The technology is racing ahead, just as with EV's.

Currently the UK produces just over 40% less CO2 than it did in 1990. Yesterday the UK government committed to a plan to reach carbon neutral status by 2050 or before if we can. The plan has been in existence for some while but yesterday was fully released. The initiative will create near 1/2 million brand new highly skilled jobs here in the UK. It's only by doing all this stuff that we will succeed. The future is bright if we act now. But there isn't much time left.

Oh and the fuel so called crisis is over now in the UK.
It's all very well the UK Government making Green promises but the UK has the lowest uptake of Heat Pumps in Europe as well as one of the highest CO2 emitters, both of these are per person.

It's also worth mentioning that the UK Chancellor is dead set against spending on Renewables and instead wants to stick with financing Fossil Fuel extraction.
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kshansen wrote:
If I'm doing conversions correctly from € to $ and Liters to gallons that comes in at $10.80 per gallon! I would assume a percentage of that would be in the form of taxes?
In the UK it's about £1.42 for unleaded. Half of that is tax.
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Coddy wrote:
It's all very well the UK Government making Green promises but the UK has the lowest uptake of Heat Pumps in Europe as well as one of the highest CO2 emitters, both of these are per person.

It's also worth mentioning that the UK Chancellor is dead set against spending on Renewables and instead wants to stick with financing Fossil Fuel extraction.
I think those are slightly disingenuous claims by you Coddy. In fact it's the other way round. The UK emits pretty much the least amount of CO2 per capita at 7.5 tonnes per person per year. Luxembourg has the highest at over 20 tonnes pppy. Germany is 11.5 tonnes pppy (source: statista) . Every other country in Europe emmits more than us here in the UK.

There are several reasons for low heat pump take up and it's different for each country. One is the technology hasn't been great! Another is the cost to home owners. Government grants have been available for years but the bad press that heat pumps have had a few years ago did put people off. My experience of them has been that they perform poorly. However, recently there have been big improvements but there is still some way to go before they are suitable for every property.

Regarding the Chancellor's green credentials. He is so against going green that he has invested billions of pounds into every area of green energy & clean energy (nuclear too) and near half a million green jobs will be created on top of the existing 160,000 already made. The banning of new petrol and diesel cars from 2030 is again leading the way. He has also announced huge sums of money for the expansion of the charging network for EVs. Thousands of new wind turbines coming, solar too. All good!

Worth mentioning that putting money into new oil well licencing & extraction is still vital. We are going to need lots of it for many years to come. Much of this will not be burned in cars or to heat our homed. Folks forget a large percentage of our oil is used to produce food, drugs, soap, plastics & a whole range of other thing like paints of all kinds. If we don't find it now there will be a shortfall as going electric won't suddenly see all ice engine cars disappear over night. They will be here for years to come. So we need oil long term.
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Stromrider,

I really think you have, with common sense, captured the essence of moving forward
into progressively more environmental improvement. Essentially, we still need fossil
fuels to make the transition and avoid destroying the economy and the livelihood of the middle class.

On this side of the pond, the issue has become so emotional as to assume cult status.
The old metaphor applies, "Do not throw the baby out with the bath water".

I think level heads will workout a correct transition to improved environmental conditions.

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Yes, I think you are quite right Bob. Commons sense usually prevails and our American friends are not dumb people. It's just no one likes change on a big scale, but it will come and folks will see the benefits.
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Returning to the original item:

How is the situation with the supply of petrol at the stations at this moment?
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It's fine. It's pretty much back to normal.

What ever that is these days.
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Coddy wrote:
It's all very well the UK Government making Green promises but the UK has the lowest uptake of Heat Pumps in Europe as well as one of the highest CO2 emitters, both of these are per person.

It's also worth mentioning that the UK Chancellor is dead set against spending on Renewables and instead wants to stick with financing Fossil Fuel extraction.
It is not so bad. These are the EU data up to 2019: https://ec.europa.eu/eurostat/databrowser/view/t2020_rd300/default/table?lang=en
EU 28 average is 8,2 tonnes of CO2 per capita.
UK is at 7,3. Comparable to Italy.
BE is 10,6.
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Bill Dog wrote:
It's fine. It's pretty much back to normal.

What ever that is these days.
Which proves it was a media-created "crisis".

They report 5 petrol stations in the whole of the UK have a supply issue and suddenly the every petrol station has a huge queue of people panic buying causing the inevitable situation of stations running out of fuel, which then gets reported around the world.

Once everyone has a full tank and stops buying needlessly, the fake crises is resolved.

John
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Stromrider wrote:
Balancing the power from different sources is becoming easier. The point to remember is that at night we don't need anywhere near as much electricity as during the day as the majority of industry slows or stops production at night, households sleep. But EV's will increasingly consume more electricity during the night. And that's ok. With turbines in the north sea their is a fairly constant and consistent production of electricity due to the off shore environment both day and night, but of course, there is less wind at night. Although this summer wasn't as good as last year for maximum electricity production due to more variable weather conditions and we had to use more nuclear, some extra gas, and solar to make up for it. But this is why everyone wants and needs a range of electricity sources. That includes nuclear of course and it's nuclear that can take over more than comfortably at night. In emergencies we will still have gas and oil for a while yet ready to kick in when needed.
(...)
If you have electricity sources that are not reliable, such as wind and solar, then there must be a source of reliable electricity available that is very flexible to cover the demand. Do you really think that nuclear plants can do that?
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PeterCC wrote:
If you have electricity sources that are not reliable, such as wind and solar, then there must be a source of reliable electricity available that is very flexible to cover the demand. Do you really think that nuclear plants can do that?
There's plenty of Hydro in Scotland and Wales that can come on line in just a few seconds. Wave power and tidal power are getting a lot more investment.
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Tor2ga wrote:
This is a seriously political term in the US and pro-Trump. Are you sure you want this out there?
No kidding. Actually learned something I didn't want to. Hard to keep up with the BS lately.
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PeterCC wrote:
If you have electricity sources that are not reliable, such as wind and solar, then there must be a source of reliable electricity available that is very flexible to cover the demand. Do you really think that nuclear plants can do that?
Hello Peter, yes nuclear will be more than capable of taking up the strain according to the UK government. Hence the experiments conducted in 2019 with our network where the whole of the UK ran on just renewables and nuclear for a full 24hrs to check how robust the network is and to make sure we are going in the right direction. In addition, Rolls Royce are to supply 60 mini reactors to feed the network. These are small powerful reactors that take very little time to build and get up and running. These will more than supplement what we already have and what is already being built but also give us the capacity we need for the next 25yrs. And it's clean and safe. As discussed previously in many threads on here the waste won't be an issue due to new reprocessing/recycling plants that are planned and already being built, and some that are already working to a bigger capacity. Modern reactors are far more efficient too and produce less waste of all kinds over the previous reactors. Spent fuel rods still have over 92% of their fuel within them after years of use and can be recycled from the stockpiles that folks already have. It's a win win situation.
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jimc wrote:
There's plenty of Hydro in Scotland and Wales that can come on line in just a few seconds. Wave power and tidal power are getting a lot more investment.
I have doubts about that. I find in the UK.gov statistics hydro has a share of only some 2% in elekctricity production (in 2020). Almost negligible. That is not going to be the source to balance.
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Stromrider wrote:
Hello Peter, yes nuclear will be more than capable of taking up the strain according to the UK government. Hence the experiments conducted in 2019 with our network where the whole of the UK ran on just renewables and nuclear for a full 24hrs to check how robust the network is and to make sure we are going in the right direction. In addition, Rolls Royce are to supply 60 mini reactors to feed the network. These are small powerful reactors that take very little time to build and get up and running. These will more than supplement what we already have and what is already being built but also give us the capacity we need for the next 25yrs. And it's clean and safe. As discussed previously in many threads on here the waste won't be an issue due to new reprocessing/recycling plants that are planned and already being built, and some that are already working to a bigger capacity. Modern reactors are far more efficient too and produce less waste of all kinds over the previous reactors. Spent fuel rods still have over 92% of their fuel within them after years of use and can be recycled from the stockpiles that folks already have. It's a win win situation.
These small and flexible nuclear reactors are not there yet. Not a single one has been built.

Earlier this week an energy professor from Ghent University on the radio pointing out much is expected from them, nice stories and so on, but not a single one has been built and he expects at best the first real and operational reactor of this kind will be there maybe in 2035, if at all.

So be critical.
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PeterCC wrote:
These small and flexible nuclear reactors are not there yet. Not a single one has been built.

Earlier this week an energy professor from Ghent University on the radio pointing out much is expected from them, nice stories and so on, but not a single one has been built and he expects at best the first real and operational reactor of this kind will be there maybe in 2035, if at all.
I see a clear pattern developing in these numerous conversations about energy and climate. One faction is speaking of future directions and how to solve long-term problems, while the other faction seems intent on pooh-poohing any new direction, often on the grounds that it does not meet the needs of today, right now. And so people mostly talk past each other.

I hold it as self-evident that large-scale, ambitious goals take time. I also hold it as obvious that to achieve long-term goals, we have to start now.
PeterCC wrote:
So be critical.
If being critical means sitting on your hands and saying "NO" to everything because it doesn't improve your life today, then I forcefully reject your suggestion.
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jess wrote:
I hold it as self-evident that large-scale, ambitious goals take time. I also hold it as obvious that to achieve long-term goals, we have to start now.



If being critical means sitting on your hands and saying "NO" to everything because it doesn't improve your life today, then I forcefully reject your suggestion.
...so I think too.
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PeterCC wrote:
These small and flexible nuclear reactors are not there yet. Not a single one has been built.

Earlier this week an energy professor from Ghent University on the radio pointing out much is expected from them, nice stories and so on, but not a single one has been built and he expects at best the first real and operational reactor of this kind will be there maybe in 2035, if at all.

So be critical.
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I'm especially fond of how they have made reactors safe enough to put on a vessel in active combat.
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But that's not new znomit. Submarines, aircraft carriers and other combat ships have used nuclear propulsion for decades. Some commercial ships too. With modern technology these reactors are being built better, last longer, and produce more power over their lifetime while producing less waste.
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PeterCC wrote:
These small and flexible nuclear reactors are not there yet. Not a single one has been built.

Earlier this week an energy professor from Ghent University on the radio pointing out much is expected from them, nice stories and so on, but not a single one has been built and he expects at best the first real and operational reactor of this kind will be there maybe in 2035, if at all.

So be critical.
So far Peter the nuclear project is on course. Not sure why you think it isn't. 16 of the medium sized reactors should be plugged into the grid and generating by 2031. Each one producing 470MW which is enough to power 1.3m homes X 16. These initial 16 are mostly privately funded. The UK government announced on Oct 15th this year that funding is now available for the remaining reactors to be built as planned. If there are any glitches or delays I'm sure that as always they will be sorted out. We cannot afford not to.

Many of my friends and fellow engineers work in the nuclear industry with lots of experience. Some worked at Bradwell nuclear facility just down the road from me. It was a great power station and gave us decades and decades of reliable safe power. One of my friends remained as part of the decommissioning team and he said all the engineers were amazed at just how good a condition the station was in when it closed down. It would have easily worked for another 15-20 years without issues. No corrosion in pipe welds or joints, reactors still in really good condition etc etc. But hey ho, they decided to be ultra safe and closed it.
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I am against nuclear power only if it dirties and is not safe but if they show me that it is the cure for a worse disease (global warming) and it is possible to implement it safely, I must admit that it is like the saying: "drink or drown".
PS: I criticize myself, I would never build anything nuclear in Italy, it is too "intrinsically" dangerous to do it here because of ... imagine it.
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Yes I like the irony of Nuclear Power Stations so incredibly safe that they build them in the middle of nowhere.

You know, just in case.
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Bill Dog wrote:
You know, just in case.
You might be surprised by where they get built in the coming decades, then.
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Nothing surprises me anymore.
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Bill Dog wrote:
Yes I like the irony of Nuclear Power Stations so incredibly safe that they build them in the middle of nowhere.

You know, just in case.
They build the traditional nuclear stations in places where there is a lot of water. This tends to be the coastal venues. Of course this is for the reactors to have access to lots of cooling water. They tend to be big sites too, not suitable for very urban areas. Not built in these places because of reasons of safety.
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jess wrote:
(...)
If being critical means sitting on your hands and saying "NO" to everything because it doesn't improve your life today, then I forcefully reject your suggestion.
No, that is definitely not what I mean with be critical. Being critical is not negative.
It is about not to simply taking plans for the far future for granted.
Check for data.

Most complex plans take in realization more time and cost more money than originally planned, if they are at all realized.
We all know that sun and wind will not deliver enough energy to replace fossil, so good ideas are what we need.
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PeterCC wrote:
Most complex plans take in realization more time and cost more money than originally planned, if they are at all realized.
Yes. And?
PeterCC wrote:
We all know that sun and wind will not deliver enough energy to replace fossil, so good ideas are what we need.
While you wait for a "good idea" to come along, the rest of us are going to move forward without you.
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There were only four nuclear cargo ships, and the Savanna was the only one anybody ever heard of. It's in Baltimore rusting away in disgrace.
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PeterCC wrote:
We all know that sun and wind will not deliver enough energy to replace fossil
I for one do NOT know that. The sun alone could do it millions of times over, but it'd take time to implement.
Quote:
so good ideas are what we need.
Quite - and the gumption to get off our butts and try out the ideas, not dismiss them out of hand.
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Will we go back to the sailing ships?
jimc wrote:
Quite - and the gumption to get off our butts and try out the ideas, not dismiss them out of hand.
It is a luxury that we have allowed ourselves for many years ... waste.
I agree on evaluating all the solutions, the sand flows fast in the hourglass.
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Coddy wrote:
It's all very well the UK Government making Green promises but the UK has the lowest uptake of Heat Pumps in Europe as well as one of the highest CO2 emitters, both of these are per person.

It's also worth mentioning that the UK Chancellor is dead set against spending on Renewables and instead wants to stick with financing Fossil Fuel extraction.
I wouldn't get to worked up about it.

My heat pump works reasonably down to about 32F/0C . After that, it is highly supplemented with resistance heating.

Heat pumps work best in a range of about 40F-90F. Outside of that range, they are much less effective or efficient.
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Be interesting to see if this gets the go-ahead. It failed to get government backing last time:

http://www.tidallagoonpower.com/projects/swansea-bay/

John
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UTC quote
Scooter John,

Great link showing tidal changes. The visual is excellent A bit pricey to install, but then good forever with maintenance. I think solar is still being held up by battery storage technology. That too will evolve.

I am strongly in support of energy renewables. Actually, who wouldn't be?

I do not agree with the environmental extremists who have taken the green
movement to an almost occultist fever pitch level with virtue signaling that
makes any counter discussion a veritable heresy. Essentially, they are correct
and everybody else is an idiot for offering other ideas.

Your idiot in Minnesota,

Bob Copeland
@jess avatar
UTC

Petty Tyrant
0:7 and counting
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Posts: 39564
Location: Bay Area, California
 
Petty Tyrant
@jess avatar
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Joined: UTC
Posts: 39564
Location: Bay Area, California
UTC quote
Bob Copeland wrote:
I do not agree with the environmental extremists who have taken the green
movement to an almost occultist fever pitch level with virtue signaling that
makes any counter discussion a veritable heresy. Essentially, they are correct
and everybody else is an idiot for offering other ideas.
Accusing people of virtue signaling is itself a form of virtue signaling.

What you view as virtue signaling can also be reasonably viewed as people acting on their convictions. Maligning people who are trying to do good just leads to more tribalism, more division, and ultimately we all lose.
@bob_copeland avatar
UTC

Ossessionato
2013 Vespa 300 Super, 2022 Kymco AK 550
Joined: UTC
Posts: 3807
Location: Minneapolis USA
 
Ossessionato
@bob_copeland avatar
2013 Vespa 300 Super, 2022 Kymco AK 550
Joined: UTC
Posts: 3807
Location: Minneapolis USA
UTC quote
Jess,

Touché friend.

Bob Copeland
Minnesota
@attila avatar
UTC

Veni, Vidi, Posti
In garage: Yamaha Tricity 155 Urban 2019 - MV Agusta 125 RS 1956
Joined: UTC
Posts: 8291
Location: Latina (Italy)
 
Veni, Vidi, Posti
@attila avatar
In garage: Yamaha Tricity 155 Urban 2019 - MV Agusta 125 RS 1956
Joined: UTC
Posts: 8291
Location: Latina (Italy)
UTC quote
jess wrote:
Accusing people of virtue signaling is itself a form of virtue signaling.

What you view as virtue signaling can also be reasonably viewed as people acting on their convictions. Maligning people who are trying to do good just leads to more tribalism, more division, and ultimately we all lose.
I have marked this quote, it is very illuminating.
Saved on Modern Vespa file on my pc.
UTC

Ossessionato
2016 Vespa GTS300ie abs/asr/ess Settantesimo '70'
Joined: UTC
Posts: 3766
Location: East Anglia, UK
 
Ossessionato
2016 Vespa GTS300ie abs/asr/ess Settantesimo '70'
Joined: UTC
Posts: 3766
Location: East Anglia, UK
UTC quote
[quote="Bob Copeland

Your idiot in Minnesota,

Bob Copeland
[/quote]

Bob, I don't think anyone could describe you as an "idiot".

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