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UTC

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UTC quote
Stromrider,

Thanks Strom,

Just trying to be metaphorical like Benjamin Franklin when he published
the Almanack under the pseudonym of Poor Richard or Mrs Silence Dogood.

Ben had to deal with the crown, I occasionally have to deal with the Green
New Deal advocates that think anyone who offers objections or counter
arguments is misinformed, unscientific or aka an "Idiot".

I am all in on a cleaner environment. But, what if the entire claim of climate
change was a false narrative. What if it was a natural process and was just
cooked up by the United Nations years ago to get increased funding after
drifting for identity in the post cold war era. The same institution tried getting
increased funding for over population in the 1950's, the world was getting
colder (Glacial period returning) in the 1960-70s, and now global warming.
This latest fashionable cause is the ultimate straw horse argument.

What if all the carbon credit control, elimination of fossil fuels, and endless
singing of Kumbaya had less than 1/2 percent impact on weather in 50 years.

Anyone who might consider this must be an idiot.

Mrs Silence Dogood
Minnesota
@marret avatar
UTC

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UTC quote
Since we are talking fuel…

Apparently there is progress in developing alternative fuel.

Prometheus Fuels has developed one, a net zero carbon fuel, that can be used in existing ICE.

Almost sounds too good to be true.

Sounds/looks like a great solution to the clean fuel question at an affordable price and enables the clean use of ICE. I do wonder about scale based on electricity generation with solar and wind.

For an interview of the founder, Rob McGinnis, posted by Baldy over on advrider:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y6iQlkUXUsE

Here is Prometheus Fuels website:
https://prometheusfuels.com/
⚠️ Last edited by marret on UTC; edited 1 time
@jess avatar
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UTC quote
Bob Copeland wrote:
But, what if the entire claim of climate change was a false narrative.
Well, that's easy: then we would have accidentally reduced emissions and cleaned up the environment unnecessarily.

What if it's not a false narrative?

That's also easy: then the ocean swallows much of the land and the remainder becomes largely uninhabitable.

From a risk/reward analysis perspective, it's really easy to figure out which side to err on.

Also, Bob, I would caution you that you are headed into dangerous territory here. I am strongly pro-environment, and I know for certain your concern trolling is not in good faith. This conversation is unlikely to end well.
@attila avatar
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UTC quote
jess wrote:
Well, that's easy: then we would have accidentally reduced emissions and cleaned up the environment unnecessarily.




"What if it's not a false narrative?"
jess wrote:
That's also easy: then the ocean swallows much of the land and the remainder becomes largely uninhabitable.
Elementary.
@znomit avatar
UTC

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UTC quote
jess wrote:
That's also easy: then the ocean swallows much of the land and the remainder becomes largely uninhabitable.

It depends what you mean by uninhabitable.
The lizard people behind [insert conspiracy] are amphibious.
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UTC

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UTC quote
For me it's not about now but the future, a future that my grandkids and great grandchildren live in, and yes, I already have 4 great grandchildren.
I have been on the green side of the line since the Oil Embargo in 1973, so this has been a part of my lifestyle, re-use, recyclable, plan trips to be fuel efficient, buy vehicles that are fuel efficient, sure glad Piaggio thought that way too, LOL.
I know my new solar system is not yet turned on, waiting on final electrical service provider to do their thing and I know it might not ever pay for it's self but it's not about that, it's about taking that step, with this old house, into the future and as it's a very noticeable step, with the sign from the company I contracted with in my small corner lot yard, on a busy street, I am already getting asked questions at work.
We have 1 planet to live on right now, and No current possibly of a habitat in space for any amount of our population. No neighboring planet to move to so we really need to take care of the home we do have. For all of you, for my young great grandchildren, for the kids that I hope have cleaner air, cleaner water and a brighter future 100 years from now.
And yes, I hope that Piaggio is still producing fun rides and that some of the old classics are still in existence.
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UTC quote
Jess,

Hey, I love the trill of two wheel riding. The wind in your face, the joy of
seeing all around. I love this forum - I do not want to be political. I am
obviously conservative. My scooter group is all over the map on the political
spectrum. We are bound by our love of these amazing machines.

I am back to scooter talk.

You are a gentleman and really well measured for putting up with me.

Thanks for all you do.

Bob Copeland
Frost Bite Falls Minnesota
Time to put the scooters away for a long Winters sleep in Minnesota.

Bob Copeland
@petercc avatar
UTC

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UTC quote
jimc wrote:
I for one do NOT know that. The sun alone could do it millions of times over, but it'd take time to implement.
Quite - and the gumption to get off our butts and try out the ideas, not dismiss them out of hand.
Of course the sun delivers us more than enough energy and way much more than we need but the question is how to get to it.
The earth is full of energy. Below our feet for instance there is a massive source of energy as molten rock but also here: how to get to it.

And to be clear: I do not dismiss anything but there must be enough potential and a reasonable chance on success. Nice stories alone do not convince me. I am an engineer after all.
@attila avatar
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UTC quote
... it would take a revolutionary idea ...
@jimc avatar
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UTC quote
Attila wrote:
... it would take a revolutionary idea ...
We've already invented the wheel, haven't we?
@jess avatar
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UTC quote
PeterCC wrote:
Of course the sun delivers us more than enough energy and way much more than we need but the question is how to get to it.
The earth is full of energy. Below our feet for instance there is a massive source of energy as molten rock but also here: how to get to it.
The problem is not getting it. You just need enough land and enough solar panels. That's not exactly an unsolvable problem.

The real problem is storing it. And that is an area that has seen immense progress in the last few years, with promising developments on the horizon.

And what triggered this sudden acceleration of battery technology? Incentives and mandates given to the EV industry, of course.

You're welcome.
@attila avatar
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UTC quote
@kshansen avatar
UTC

Molto Verboso
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UTC quote
jess wrote:
The problem is not getting it. You just need enough land and enough solar panels. That's not exactly an unsolvable problem.

The real problem is storing it. And that is an area that has seen immense progress in the last few years, with promising developments on the horizon.

And what triggered this sudden acceleration of battery technology? Incentives and mandates given to the EV industry, of course.

You're welcome.
Not sure if it will work out but have read some about using solar to produce hydrogen with an updated version of electrolysis:

https://phys.org/news/2019-10-method-hydrogen-efficiently-capture-renewable.html
@madison_sully avatar
UTC

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UTC quote
jess wrote:
Well, that's easy: then we would have accidentally reduced emissions and cleaned up the environment unnecessarily.

What if it's not a false narrative?

That's also easy: then the ocean swallows much of the land and the remainder becomes largely uninhabitable.

From a risk/reward analysis perspective, it's really easy to figure out which side to err on.

Unfortunately this is exactly the same argument used by religions.
"What if there is no God, but I choose to believe?"
"Well then, you would have wasted your Sunday mornings and 10% of your income for naught."

"What if there is a God, and I don't 'believe'?"
"Well then, you spend eternity burning in hell."

Having said that, the cleaner environment for its own sake is a worthy goal, IMHO, even in the clearly unlikely event any connection between human emissions and warming is disproven.
It's nice, for instance, that the Cuyahoga river doesn't burn any more.
And LA has clear vistas. And bald eagles can lay eggs without making omelettes.

As a species, humanity tends to make many mistakes, but somehow avoids most direct repercussions.

In the case of environmental issues I'm on board, though some of my behaviors may suggest otherwise. I commute ~130 miles round trip for work, for instance. On the other hand, population is pretty close to 1:1 when it comes to emissions, and I have chosen not to procreate. So there's that. I also rather frequently pick up other peoples' garbage they leave strewn all about, and I usually bring a shopping cart back into the store from the handicap parking area.
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UTC quote
Hydrogen has it's own problems
Most notably that the molecules are small & leak right through the walls of the tank...
Conversions are lossy,
Commercial hydrogen is made from reformed natural gas [methane]

It's hard to beat liquid hydrocarbons for convenience as an energy storage medium
An electric car that can add 300 miles of range in 1/2 of charging is close
As more electric vehicles are used it becomes more feasible to use their combined capacity as peak load mitigation
@attila avatar
UTC

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UTC quote
Madison Sully wrote:
Unfortunately this is exactly the same argument used by religions.
"What if there is no God, but I choose to believe?"
"Well then, you would have wasted your Sunday mornings and 10% of your income for naught."
You can choose to be a believer without trying too hard, surely the afterlife is crowded with good lawyers and it is enough to find one.
Madison Sully wrote:
"What if there is a God, and I don't 'believe'?"
"Well then, you spend eternity burning in hell."

Atheists don't exist, trust me.

A word of advice ... even hinting lightly at religion in a forum is like opening Pandora's Box.
PS: I have made my donations to Greenpeace and associations for the research of cancer treatments.
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UTC quote
I'm firmly agnostic
I know when a question is above my pay grade
It's OK for questions to remain questions
Hard pass on basing decisions on someone's sincerely held delusions...
@attila avatar
UTC

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UTC quote
Okay so, the estimate for a person is based on other / many parameters.
@bob_copeland avatar
UTC

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UTC quote
Sully,

I think you have hit the right spot. Much has been done with a huge impact.

1. Stopping the use of DDT has brought back the Eagle in America. The
majestic birds are everywhere. I have them nesting and flying all over even
my suburban neighborhood.

2. We figured out freon. The ozone damage has almost totally reversed.

3. Separating garbage into recyclable reusable components is now profitable.

So, even if the cycle of climate change is natural, measures for greening up
are a good thing.

Bob Copeland
@madison_sully avatar
UTC

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UTC quote
Attila wrote:
Atheists don't exist, trust me.

A word of advice ... even hinting lightly at religion in a forum is like opening Pandora's Box.
With all due respect, god doesn't exist. Trust me.
And that right there is a TOTALLY non-religious statement.
With all sincerity, for anyone who believes in whatever you believe in (and I carefully submit that may include me), that was not actually intended to be denigrating in the least. Unless, of course, you consider atheists somehow unreasonable. In which case, I submit, religion is unreasonable.

Please understand, on occasion I take the contrarian position even when I don't personally hold it. I think it's important to at least try to view the world from views alternate to my own.
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UTC

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UTC quote
Madison Sully wrote:
I also rather frequently pick up other peoples' garbage they leave strewn all about, and I usually bring a shopping cart back into the store from the handicap parking area.
There's a place for you in heaven already.
@attila avatar
UTC

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@attila avatar
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UTC quote
Sledge wrote:
There's a place for you in heaven already.
He must first believe in Heaven to get it ... Razz emoticon
@attila avatar
UTC

Veni, Vidi, Posti
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@attila avatar
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UTC quote
Madison Sully wrote:
With all sincerity, for anyone who believes in whatever you believe in (and I carefully submit that may include me), that was not actually intended to be denigrating in the least. Unless, of course, you consider atheists somehow unreasonable. In which case, I submit, religion is unreasonable.

I state that I do not want to be offensive to you and anything you believe or do not believe does not diminish my esteem for you, returning to your sentence that I quoted above ... It reminds me a little of what the no-vax say .. .
Mmmh ... Complicated to translate as a concept.
PS: Strange that the two J. or the others haven't stopped us yet ...
@jimc avatar
UTC

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UTC quote
Attila wrote:
PS: Strange that the two J. or the others haven't stopped us yet ...
Now that you mention it...

As the UK fuel 'crisis' evaporated a while ago, this thread can also drop off the front page.
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