Thu Oct 14, 2021 6:34 am

Hooked
Joined: 14 Oct 2016
Posts: 157
Location: northern New York
 
Hooked
Joined: 14 Oct 2016
Posts: 157
Location: northern New York
Thu Oct 14, 2021 6:34 am linkquote
Yesterday I decided to stop messing with the crusty engine case and just get on with restoring the VBB. The crusty case will need some work which I will have done at some point.

The engine was surpisingly easy to get out. The hardest part was getting those itty bitty nuts off that hold the left cowl on. I pulled the piston and cylinder hoping for a 3 port...oh well. Overall, things looked pretty clean. The piston and cylinder look pretty good. I don't think this case will give me as much trouble getting apart and now I have a few required tools. I have discussed tuning options in other posts and I will get back to that once I get everything apart and see what I have.

The scooter has a lot of small - keep it running hacks- and bodges; wiring outside the frame covered with gooey electrical tape, crappy splices, etc. The legshield was pretty banged up so I will be pulling the front fork..the whole deal.

I found the original color. Anyone know a paint code? I'm not really a patina guy, though I really like the look of weathered paint on scooters I've seen. This one has too much dent repair to do, so I will be repainting it the original color.

So this will now be my one stop restoration thread.

Thanks.




VBC engine doesn't look too bad.


Cold War era factory machine blue/green

Thu Oct 14, 2021 7:25 am

Addicted
1958 Allstate 177VMC, 2005 70cc Yamaha Vino
Joined: 23 Aug 2020
Posts: 627
Location: Philadelphia
 
Addicted
1958 Allstate 177VMC, 2005 70cc Yamaha Vino
Joined: 23 Aug 2020
Posts: 627
Location: Philadelphia
Thu Oct 14, 2021 7:25 am linkquote
ratcheting wrenches come in very very handy for those cowl nuts.
Thu Oct 14, 2021 7:41 am

Lucky
76 Sprint V, 63 GL, 62 VBB, 05 Stella
Joined: 16 Jun 2011
Posts: 4264
Location: Nashville
 
Lucky
76 Sprint V, 63 GL, 62 VBB, 05 Stella
Joined: 16 Jun 2011
Posts: 4264
Location: Nashville
Thu Oct 14, 2021 7:41 am linkquote
The backwards carriage bolt(?) on the rear shock is a nice touch. I'll bet you're going to find all sorts of interesting surprises in that bike.
Thu Oct 14, 2021 8:38 am

Hooked
Joined: 14 Oct 2016
Posts: 157
Location: northern New York
 
Hooked
Joined: 14 Oct 2016
Posts: 157
Location: northern New York
Thu Oct 14, 2021 8:38 am linkquote
chandlerman wrote:
The backwards carriage bolt(?) on the rear shock is a nice touch. I'll bet you're going to find all sorts of interesting surprises in that bike.
Right?!?

It's one of the things that stopped me from winding it out just once on some back road.

Like the PO just couldn't go to the hardware store and bust out a whole fitty cents for a hardened bolt.

I don't think he did anything with the engine other than stab it in. Luckily the scoot has no bondo in it. The PO didn't seem interested in hiding its sins. Just honest Vermont hokey ass farm fixes.
Thu Oct 14, 2021 6:27 pm

Hooked
Joined: 14 Oct 2016
Posts: 157
Location: northern New York
 
Hooked
Joined: 14 Oct 2016
Posts: 157
Location: northern New York
Thu Oct 14, 2021 6:27 pm linkquote
More progress


No going back now


Bottoms up


Some surface rust in the tunnel but nothing awful. Will sandblast, acid etch and rust paint.

Sat Oct 16, 2021 11:00 am

Hooked
Joined: 14 Oct 2016
Posts: 157
Location: northern New York
 
Hooked
Joined: 14 Oct 2016
Posts: 157
Location: northern New York
Sat Oct 16, 2021 11:00 am linkquote
Getting back to the engine...

Threads on the drive shaft don't look wonderful. Hoping I can chase them to clean it up.

The flywheel is missing the circlip which pulls it off the crank taper. I was hoping to find a close fit at the hardware store just to get it off. Are there any safe alternatives to removing the flywheel? I have pullers and heat....

Edit: A snap ring from the hardware store did the trick. Came right off.


No snap ring...bummer


Threads on this aren't great. Things are starting to look bodgey.

Sat Oct 16, 2021 6:39 pm

Hooked
Joined: 14 Oct 2016
Posts: 157
Location: northern New York
 
Hooked
Joined: 14 Oct 2016
Posts: 157
Location: northern New York
Sat Oct 16, 2021 6:39 pm linkquote
This case was much easier to get apart. A couple taps with a rubber mallet and done. Here's what I found:

Any thoughts on this case?

Thanks


This engine ate some metal. Some is still embedded in the case.


Rotary valve is scored but not deep. Carb didn't spit. Almost looks like it was repaired at some point.


Crank had some scoring too.


X-mass tree


Gears look ok


Crack or casting flaw near kickstart. Doesn't go all the way through.


How is the wear on this?

Sun Oct 17, 2021 5:04 am

Ossessionato
Joined: 22 Oct 2011
Posts: 4672
Location: Tega Cay, SC
 
Ossessionato
Joined: 22 Oct 2011
Posts: 4672
Location: Tega Cay, SC
Sun Oct 17, 2021 5:04 am linkquote
While you in there, it is always good practice to replace all the wear items. Minimum would be the seals, buffers and cruciform. It is never going to get any easier than now.
Sun Oct 17, 2021 5:26 am

Hooked
Joined: 14 Oct 2016
Posts: 157
Location: northern New York
 
Hooked
Joined: 14 Oct 2016
Posts: 157
Location: northern New York
Sun Oct 17, 2021 5:26 am linkquote
Tierney wrote:
While you in there, it is always good practice to replace all the wear items. Minimum would be the seals, buffers and cruciform. It is never going to get any easier than now.
Will do. I'm going to get a rebuild kit from Scooter Mercato as well as some tuning upgrades. I wanted to go through the whole engine and scooter and start fresh

At this point I'm trying to asses the condition of the case. I'm not sure if the damage to the transfers and rotary pad is serious and if it needs repair.
Sun Oct 17, 2021 3:05 pm

Ossessionato
Joined: 22 Oct 2011
Posts: 4672
Location: Tega Cay, SC
 
Ossessionato
Joined: 22 Oct 2011
Posts: 4672
Location: Tega Cay, SC
Sun Oct 17, 2021 3:05 pm linkquote
Good man. Take your time, do a good job and it will keep you from pulling out all your hair later. I refreshed an engine a while back and could not figure out why it was dropping out of second gear. I cleaned off my messy bench and there it was - the brand new cruciform that was SUPPOSED to be installed in the motor. Pulled it down again to install and put back together. Half day shot because I was sleeping when I put it together the first time.
Sun Oct 17, 2021 4:23 pm

Hooked
Joined: 14 Oct 2016
Posts: 157
Location: northern New York
 
Hooked
Joined: 14 Oct 2016
Posts: 157
Location: northern New York
Sun Oct 17, 2021 4:23 pm linkquote
Tierney wrote:
Good man. Take your time, do a good job and it will keep you from pulling out all your hair later. I refreshed an engine a while back and could not figure out why it was dropping out of second gear. I cleaned off my messy bench and there it was - the brand new cruciform that was SUPPOSED to be installed in the motor. Pulled it down again to install and put back together. Half day shot because I was sleeping when I put it together the first time.
Trouble shifting gears is a big part of the reason I pulled it apart. Changed the selector box and it was better, but was still hunting to get it into gear when downshifting. Cruciform does look worn.

Looking for some advice on what to do about the case damage...
Tue Oct 19, 2021 7:53 am

Hooked
Joined: 14 Oct 2016
Posts: 157
Location: northern New York
 
Hooked
Joined: 14 Oct 2016
Posts: 157
Location: northern New York
Tue Oct 19, 2021 7:53 am linkquote
I have been reading up a lot on checking rotary pads and the different ways to repair them as well as fitting a reed valve. This issue seems to come up a lot. This is how I understand it so far:

The tolerance for the rotary pad to crank cheek is pretty wide. It has to be really scored to cause problems.

Reed valves are usually installed to fit a much larger carb. They are expensive and make tuning, jetting and timing pretty complex.

There are reed valve kits that are designed to work with stock carbs that are much cheaper. I have seen these mentioned a lot but have not been able to find one searching on line.

I'm going to start by bead blasting the rotary pad on the VBC case. It looks like it has a lot of aluminum smeared on the pad.
Wed Oct 20, 2021 4:31 am

Hooked
Joined: 14 Oct 2016
Posts: 157
Location: northern New York
 
Hooked
Joined: 14 Oct 2016
Posts: 157
Location: northern New York
Wed Oct 20, 2021 4:31 am linkquote
I bead blasted the rotary pad and it cleaned up pretty well. As I thought it had a lot of material that had smeared on it. It also looks like it has been repaired before.

Bead blasting also smoothed out the gouge around the transfer. I don't think the gouge effects how the engine runs. The engine was running well except for trouble with gear selection.

I will check the rotary pad clearance with feeler gages with the crank installed and smooth it all out with a round of soda blasting. The bead blast is pretty coarse. If it all checks out I should be good to go. Maybe I'm a little anal about this stuff but it's better than having to pull it all apart again.


Rotary pad after bead blasting.

Thu Oct 21, 2021 4:00 am

Hooked
Joined: 14 Oct 2016
Posts: 157
Location: northern New York
 
Hooked
Joined: 14 Oct 2016
Posts: 157
Location: northern New York
Thu Oct 21, 2021 4:00 am linkquote
This case has definitely been repaired. There is also some welding in the transfer of the fly side. It looks like a decent enough repair. I have also been considering starting fresh with a Malossi v1 case. I think it would allow me to run a stock 200 piston and cylinder but keep the vbb gearing. Please correct me if I'm wrong.
Thu Oct 21, 2021 4:11 am

Molto Verboso
Joined: 03 Nov 2011
Posts: 1404
Location: Racing Capital of the World
 
Molto Verboso
Joined: 03 Nov 2011
Posts: 1404
Location: Racing Capital of the World
Thu Oct 21, 2021 4:11 am linkquote
orwell84 wrote:
This case has definitely been repaired. There is also some welding in the transfer of the fly side. It looks like a decent enough repair. I have also been considering starting fresh with a Malossi v1 case. I think it would allow me to run a stock 200 piston and cylinder but keep the vbb gearing. Please correct me if I'm wrong.
Malossi cases are very nice. Just keep in mind you will have to purchase all new engine internals and almost all externals as you will be going away from the vnb/vbb platform to PX.


Malossi V-one cases with VMC177/BGM 57mm Touring.

Thu Oct 21, 2021 4:25 am

Lucky
76 Sprint V, 63 GL, 62 VBB, 05 Stella
Joined: 16 Jun 2011
Posts: 4264
Location: Nashville
 
Lucky
76 Sprint V, 63 GL, 62 VBB, 05 Stella
Joined: 16 Jun 2011
Posts: 4264
Location: Nashville
Thu Oct 21, 2021 4:25 am linkquote
GickSpeed wrote:
Malossi cases are very nice. Just keep in mind you will have to purchase all new engine internals and almost all externals as you will be going away from the vnb/vbb platform to PX.
+1

On the upside, while it'll set you back quite a pretty penny for all those bits, you'll have an EFL transmission which is much better suited to higher power motors. Honestly, though, you're probably better off finding a used P-series motor and starting from there unless you're going for some sort of insane high-power build.
Thu Oct 21, 2021 4:44 am

Hooked
Joined: 14 Oct 2016
Posts: 157
Location: northern New York
 
Hooked
Joined: 14 Oct 2016
Posts: 157
Location: northern New York
Thu Oct 21, 2021 4:44 am linkquote
chandlerman wrote:
+1

On the upside, while it'll set you back quite a pretty penny for all those bits, you'll have an EFL transmission which is much better suited to higher power motors. Honestly, though, you're probably better off finding a used P-series motor and starting from there unless you're going for some sort of insane high-power build.
That's what I was unsure about...how much I could use from the VBC. I have already decided to go with a new crank, p and c, clutch for starters. The Malossi case is overkill for sure. I would be happy with a good used p case but all I have found are used LML engines from overseas.

Another possible surprise I found on my engine...The crank bearings appear to have a layer of plastic over them on the crank side. Not sure it's normal, but it looks almost like the thin plastic new bearings are shipped in.
Thu Oct 21, 2021 4:49 am

Lucky
76 Sprint V, 63 GL, 62 VBB, 05 Stella
Joined: 16 Jun 2011
Posts: 4264
Location: Nashville
 
Lucky
76 Sprint V, 63 GL, 62 VBB, 05 Stella
Joined: 16 Jun 2011
Posts: 4264
Location: Nashville
Thu Oct 21, 2021 4:49 am linkquote
Don't sneer too hard at those Stella/LML motors. They're the core of my high-power builds, in part because they're natively reeded. I realize that's not for everyone, but you could also buy one for cheap and keep all the internals (gears, axle, primary drive, clutch, etc.).

That'd get you a motor for less than half the cost of buying it all as parts and you could up the clutch gear and maybe the base gear of the primary if you wanted to up the gearing for 8", then put a SIP conversion kit on it. That's what I did to put an LML motor I picked up for cheap in my VBB and it worked well.

And if you found a Stella motor and decided you didn't want the cases, you can flip 'em to me for the next time I crack a set almost in two.
Thu Oct 21, 2021 6:19 am

Hooked
Joined: 14 Oct 2016
Posts: 157
Location: northern New York
 
Hooked
Joined: 14 Oct 2016
Posts: 157
Location: northern New York
Thu Oct 21, 2021 6:19 am linkquote
chandlerman wrote:
Don't sneer too hard at those Stella/LML motors. They're the core of my high-power builds, in part because they're natively reeded. I realize that's not for everyone, but you could also buy one for cheap and keep all the internals (gears, axle, primary drive, clutch, etc.).

That'd get you a motor for less than half the cost of buying it all as parts and you could up the clutch gear and maybe the base gear of the primary if you wanted to up the gearing for 8", then put a SIP conversion kit on it. That's what I did to put an LML motor I picked up for cheap in my VBB and it worked well.

And if you found a Stella motor and decided you didn't want the cases, you can flip 'em to me for the next time I crack a set almost in two.
Thank you,

Nothing against the LML cases, just the idea that it's hard to know the condition of the case until you crack it open and I could end up being not much further ahead.

Building a VW type 4 has taught me a lot of patience. It took me a long time to learn the different possible combinations and interchangeability, track down a machined engine case, quality parts and machine work. I wanted to build it once and build it right. Old motors can be a long game. I am always balancing the time/money/level of ass ache equation.
Sat Nov 06, 2021 6:29 am

Hooked
Joined: 14 Oct 2016
Posts: 157
Location: northern New York
 
Hooked
Joined: 14 Oct 2016
Posts: 157
Location: northern New York
Sat Nov 06, 2021 6:29 am linkquote
I haven't done much on the scooter lately. Doing the last of the work on the bus before the snow flies. Cases got some minor welding and I will picking them up Monday. A tech teacher I work with at my school does TIG welding. Both cases should be good to go.

I have been absorbing a lot of info lately from 2-stroke 101, to advanced tuning. For a simple engine, it's a deep rabbit hole.

A couple questions still but made some decisions:

WHEELS: Maybe 10's someday, but worth starting out on 8's with the suspension in good order. Then I will decide based on that. I have also read about some who run 4.0 x 8" tires. Seems like it might be a good compromise.

GEARING: I think an upgear will wait for the same reason as the wheels. The Super (VBC) gearing seems like a good baseline place to start. I can't determine my riding needs until I do some testing with the butt dyno. To a point, gear selection seems like a subjective thing. What feels good for me might be too sluggish for another rider.

ENGINE: Starting with the tried and true bolt ons: 24/24 carb, sip road, Pinasco 2 port 177.

Remaining questions:

CRANK: short or long stroke: Long stroke seems to require more advanced knowledge as it affects port timings. I think I might be able handle setting it up. It seems a lot like setting up deck height, compression ratio and cam degreeing on a 4 stroke. Port position at x* vs valve lift, duration overlap, etc. My VW bus builds never involved any real camming up, but CR took some thought and adjustment.
Unless there's something I'm missing.

Which brings me to ignition and crank taper. The VBB lighting sucks. You might as well light your way with a cigarette...which goes out when you slow down. I also like to run gauges: tach, CHT and maybe borrow the LM2 from the bus for awhile. Didn't know before that crank choice could affect ignition choice. Now I do.

Clutch: Is the stock clutch sufficient for my build? It's a 6 spring. If so, I will just rebuild it.

I'm keeping in mind that I am looking for something as good or a little better than the P150 clone I had in the late 80's that can handle 55 mph for extended periods. The stock VBC engine doesn't seem all that far off.

So best to start small. Rider X would make different choices than rider Y. So starting with a build that is within the limits of my skills and understanding and trying it for awhile seems like a good start. I will have another case to play while I am riding.
Sat Nov 06, 2021 4:16 pm

Lucky
76 Sprint V, 63 GL, 62 VBB, 05 Stella
Joined: 16 Jun 2011
Posts: 4264
Location: Nashville
 
Lucky
76 Sprint V, 63 GL, 62 VBB, 05 Stella
Joined: 16 Jun 2011
Posts: 4264
Location: Nashville
Sat Nov 06, 2021 4:16 pm linkquote
So for the crank, since you're going to the 177, you might as well go all in and do a 60mm with a PX cone. That'll give you lots of 12v ignition options. You can probably get a lot of them dirt the small cone, too, so it's more about standardizing if you're going to have a fleet of bikes. Port timing isn't that hard, and honestly you should be worrying about it with a 57mm crank but too many people just don't.

You'll want to replace the wiring harness in any case. The BGM 12V conversion harness is a solid choice. I dropped one into my GL with pretty much zero drama, then added a battery and all sorts of non-standard electrics, including turn signals. Hit me up if you wanna more detail on an that.

For wheels, keep the 8's to start. I love my VBB for the agility, it's just overdue for for an overhaul, so it's just sitting right now.

On the motor, the six spring clutch will be fine on a two port motor. Flow and match the carb, airbox, and cases. Open up the ports in the to end. If you decide the gearing is too short, look at adding more teeth to the clutch. It's a cheap and easy upgrade.

So to get the ball rolling, it's a crank, harness, and ignition. You'll probably want to get a better exhaust, too. But that plus the Usual Parts will definitely get you back on the road.
Sun Nov 07, 2021 7:44 am

Hooked
Joined: 14 Oct 2016
Posts: 157
Location: northern New York
 
Hooked
Joined: 14 Oct 2016
Posts: 157
Location: northern New York
Sun Nov 07, 2021 7:44 am linkquote
Thanks Chandlerman.

Agreed. Going with a SIP Road 2 or 3 for exhaust.

I might make my own wiring harness. Lots of experience from rewiring a VW bus and building a flight sim cockpit. I will definitely hit you up for some wiring tips.

I really like the idea of 10" wheels.

More stability, better tire choice and the upgear factor. I think they look great too if the mudguard is modified properly. As 8 vs 10" scooters have the same chassis dimensions, I'm not sure why handling would be negatively affected if using the correct fork.

That said, it adds quite a bit of work and I wonder if the improved handling and stability of 10's over 8's might be overstated. No substitute for finding out for myself.

After spending some time on this forum, I realize that all my natural impulses for cosmetic changes would make it scream Vietbodge; 10" wheels, adding a glove box, 2-tone paint jobs, rear rack with backrest. 🙄

I will probably end up following the rule of thumb I use for the VW bus: Stock never goes out of style.


Lots is wiring experience...

Sun Nov 07, 2021 8:20 am

Ossessionato
Joined: 26 Oct 2015
Posts: 3217

 
Ossessionato
Joined: 26 Oct 2015
Posts: 3217

Sun Nov 07, 2021 8:20 am linkquote
orwell84 wrote:
This case has definitely been repaired. There is also some welding in the transfer of the fly side. It looks like a decent enough repair. I have also been considering starting fresh with a Malossi v1 case. I think it would allow me to run a stock 200 piston and cylinder but keep the vbb gearing. Please correct me if I'm wrong.
FYI, there's currently a 2005 PX150 engine on eBay. Of course any used engine should get a full rebuild. All the good PX EFL bits will be inside those cases. The stock cylinder on those scooters are gutless, but slap on a different top end and Bob's your uncle.
Sun Nov 07, 2021 9:35 am

Lucky
76 Sprint V, 63 GL, 62 VBB, 05 Stella
Joined: 16 Jun 2011
Posts: 4264
Location: Nashville
 
Lucky
76 Sprint V, 63 GL, 62 VBB, 05 Stella
Joined: 16 Jun 2011
Posts: 4264
Location: Nashville
Sun Nov 07, 2021 9:35 am linkquote
Holy cow! That flight sim cockpit is amazing!

I'd say that you have the electrical well in hand

I'd definitely start with the 8" wheels that are on there and decide if you like them or not. The "advantage" of 10"s only becomes noticeable, IMO, if you're hitting highway speeds, and maybe not even then. The lower center of gravity makes up for a lot, albeit without the rim and tire options of 10"s. Personally, I feel like my VBB feels *more* stable in the 50 mph range. I think that most people don't invest in quality suspension parts for the 8" bikes, then blame the wheels and tires for what are actually crappy shocks.

If you're going to stick with the 2-port motor, you're probably best off going with a Road 2.0 . The Road 3.0 moves the powerband peak up almost a thousand RPM's, which is great if you're running a cylinder that can deliver at 8,000 RPM's, which that 2-port Pinasco isn't going to do (it has 2mm rings, which will be floating at 8k).

And I agree that PX motor could be a great option, especially for getting your hands on an EFL gear stack. I actually started to buy it for myself before sanity kicked back in. If it'd been a P200 motor, it'd now be in the "you snooze, you lose" category.

Styling-wise, I personally think that understated is the way to go, but I realize that's not for everyone, so you do you. I think at this point, you'd find that your aesthetic sense would actually rebel against the blinged-out bodge-styling just because you now see it as a signal of bad style and worse workmanship.
Sun Nov 07, 2021 10:03 am

Ossessionato
Joined: 22 Oct 2011
Posts: 4672
Location: Tega Cay, SC
 
Ossessionato
Joined: 22 Oct 2011
Posts: 4672
Location: Tega Cay, SC
Sun Nov 07, 2021 10:03 am linkquote
There really is not any more stability on 10 inch wheels versus 8s, at least not I could tell. I do concede the 10s may ride a little smoother given the imperfections in the road and it is a bit of an upgear using the same stock gearing. But having owned both, I don't see to much of an advantage. I do think you have more room for newer style box exhaust on a 10 inch wheels as in height, but in the end, it's your scoot.
Sun Nov 07, 2021 10:43 am

Hooked
1959 Allstate w PX Engine
Joined: 29 Nov 2020
Posts: 392
Location: Los Angeles
 
Hooked
1959 Allstate w PX Engine
Joined: 29 Nov 2020
Posts: 392
Location: Los Angeles
Sun Nov 07, 2021 10:43 am linkquote
Tierney wrote:
There really is not any more stability on 10 inch wheels versus 8s, at least not I could tell. I do concede the 10s may ride a little smoother given the imperfections in the road and it is a bit of an upgear using the same stock gearing. But having owned both, I don't see to much of an advantage. I do think you have more room for newer style box exhaust on a 10 inch wheels as in height, but in the end, it's your scoot.
Yeah, I agree. The 8's are more nimble, not to mention a LOT more fun to ride IMO. Turns are more a body thing vs steering, if that makes sense.
Okay, sexier...someone had to say it

Having said that, you'll need to upgear if you go with an engine made for 10's. That isn't a big deal to do and worth it in order to keep the 8's, again IMO.

The Road 2 will be fine, clearance-wise. A bigger box will be troublesome on the sexy's. Still working on that issue.
Sun Nov 07, 2021 11:08 am

Hooked
1959 Allstate w PX Engine
Joined: 29 Nov 2020
Posts: 392
Location: Los Angeles
 
Hooked
1959 Allstate w PX Engine
Joined: 29 Nov 2020
Posts: 392
Location: Los Angeles
Sun Nov 07, 2021 11:08 am linkquote
BTW if you kit whatever engine you use, you'll want to upgrade or reinforce the clutch. The basket is prone to opening, risking a retaining ring fail.
If you upgrade the clutch you'll be able to upgear at the same time by choosing a different cog/primary combination. DRT and BGM make clutches you could really use.

Sun Nov 07, 2021 12:12 pm

Hooked
Joined: 14 Oct 2016
Posts: 157
Location: northern New York
 
Hooked
Joined: 14 Oct 2016
Posts: 157
Location: northern New York
Sun Nov 07, 2021 12:12 pm linkquote
Thanks for the suggestions. I can totally handle the welding for reinforcing the clutch.

Looking at the gearing calculator on scooter help, it looks like the the VBC gearbox will do 55 at 6k rpm. That would be about the top comfortable cruising speed for me. I am looking to do that without the engine screaming. I can't see myself revving past 8000 even if it could.
Sun Nov 07, 2021 4:17 pm

Molto Verboso
Joined: 03 Nov 2011
Posts: 1404
Location: Racing Capital of the World
 
Molto Verboso
Joined: 03 Nov 2011
Posts: 1404
Location: Racing Capital of the World
Sun Nov 07, 2021 4:17 pm linkquote
Tierney wrote:
There really is not any more stability on 10 inch wheels versus 8s, at least not I could tell. I do concede the 10s may ride a little smoother given the imperfections in the road and it is a bit of an upgear using the same stock gearing. But having owned both, I don't see to much of an advantage. I do think you have more room for newer style box exhaust on a 10 inch wheels as in height, but in the end, it's your scoot.
Agreed.
Thu Nov 11, 2021 8:17 am

Hooked
Joined: 14 Oct 2016
Posts: 157
Location: northern New York
 
Hooked
Joined: 14 Oct 2016
Posts: 157
Location: northern New York
Thu Nov 11, 2021 8:17 am linkquote
Cases are back. They welded up pretty good. Especially the VBB beater case. The VBC case didn't really need anything. I found myself eyeing the transfer points and thinking...it wouldn't have taken much to beef them up a bit for porting. It certainly opens up the choices for kits.

With enough light, the right bifocals and a fresh pair of Depends, I am good for a marathon Dremel session. As long as I can get it done before Matlock comes on...

Uh-oh the edge of the rabbit hole beacons...


VBB case left, VBC right.


Leaf blower welded both sides

Sun Nov 14, 2021 7:26 am

Hooked
Joined: 14 Oct 2016
Posts: 157
Location: northern New York
 
Hooked
Joined: 14 Oct 2016
Posts: 157
Location: northern New York
Sun Nov 14, 2021 7:26 am linkquote
So looking at my cases, I was considering possibly doing some porting. I think the guy who did the case repairs could do the welding.
Machining here is harder to find, but it looks like some careful work with a dremel, file, surface plate, etc could get it done. The porting itself doesn't scare me. I would go really slow.

I guess my question is whether it is worth it for the level of performance I am looking for. Is it a significant difference or an incremental one?

Here is my understanding of where material would have to be added.


This seems to be the only obstacle to adding a 3rd port.


It doesn't look like it would be that hard to add material here.

Sun Nov 14, 2021 8:45 am

Ossessionato
Joined: 22 Oct 2011
Posts: 4672
Location: Tega Cay, SC
 
Ossessionato
Joined: 22 Oct 2011
Posts: 4672
Location: Tega Cay, SC
Sun Nov 14, 2021 8:45 am linkquote
I had a 1974 Super, with the stock VBC engine, that I cut a third port into. It allowed me to add a generic three port cylinder that I bought from Scooter Mercato. The original cylinder was ok, but the piston was not. For the price of a new piston and cylinder bored, the three port was about the same. Coupled with a 20/20 carb and a newer exhaust, it could hold 55mph all day, but not much more. So it is possible to do this. I added material in the areas you circled and it went well. Another option would be a Pinasco 177 two port kit, practically a bolt on, although you can cut and flow the the flywheel and ports if desired to get the most out of it. I miss that scoot, riding around on 8s was a blast.
Sun Nov 14, 2021 10:29 am

Ossessionato
Joined: 22 Oct 2011
Posts: 4672
Location: Tega Cay, SC
 
Ossessionato
Joined: 22 Oct 2011
Posts: 4672
Location: Tega Cay, SC
Sun Nov 14, 2021 10:29 am linkquote
Thinking about it more, for $270 for the Pinasco 2 port kit from Scooter Mercato is the way I would go if I did again. Going the cheaper, manual route, fill the gap(hole) at 12 o'clock with Hi-temp JBweld, layout the opening with a three port gasket as a template and grind away. Done. (not really)

Last edited by Tierney on Sun Nov 14, 2021 3:04 pm; edited 1 time in total
Sun Nov 14, 2021 2:17 pm

Molto Verboso
Joined: 03 Nov 2011
Posts: 1404
Location: Racing Capital of the World
 
Molto Verboso
Joined: 03 Nov 2011
Posts: 1404
Location: Racing Capital of the World
Sun Nov 14, 2021 2:17 pm linkquote
Tierney wrote:
Thinking about it more, for $270 for the Pinasco 2 port kit from Scooter Mercato is the way I would go if I did again. Going the cheaper, manual route, fill the gap(hole) at 12 o'clock with Hi-temp JBweld, layout the opening with a three port gasket as a template and grind away. Done.
Best to have this TIG welded up and machine the gasket surfaces.

I would never recommend JB Weld here.


The transfer is outside the gasket area.


Area is TIG welded up and milled.

Sun Nov 14, 2021 3:03 pm

Ossessionato
Joined: 22 Oct 2011
Posts: 4672
Location: Tega Cay, SC
 
Ossessionato
Joined: 22 Oct 2011
Posts: 4672
Location: Tega Cay, SC
Sun Nov 14, 2021 3:03 pm linkquote
GickSpeed wrote:
Best to have this TIG welded up and machine the gasket surfaces.
I would never recommend JB Weld here.
I totally agree. I really did not mean it and should have put a little emoji rolling eye face after explaining the cheap way out. That's also why I suggested the Pinasco 2 port kit.
Sun Nov 14, 2021 3:38 pm

Style Maven
'74 50s x3 '78 P200 E '84 Cosa '91 PK50XL2 '58 AllState '68 Sprint '80 50special and a '66(?) Super125
Joined: 22 Nov 2010
Posts: 8447
Location: seattle/athens
 
Style Maven
'74 50s x3 '78 P200 E '84 Cosa '91 PK50XL2 '58 AllState '68 Sprint '80 50special and a '66(?) Super125
Joined: 22 Nov 2010
Posts: 8447
Location: seattle/athens
Sun Nov 14, 2021 3:38 pm linkquote
Depends, sometimes it's the only practical solution in some places with few other choices. If it's done carefully and the surface is prepped well, it works OK, but I've only done it on a stockish motor. It's just a reasonable option, not a recommendation. YMMV.
Sun Nov 14, 2021 6:00 pm

Molto Verboso
Joined: 03 Nov 2011
Posts: 1404
Location: Racing Capital of the World
 
Molto Verboso
Joined: 03 Nov 2011
Posts: 1404
Location: Racing Capital of the World
Sun Nov 14, 2021 6:00 pm linkquote
V oodoo wrote:
Depends, sometimes it's the only practical solution in some places with few other choices. If it's done carefully and the surface is prepped well, it works OK, but I've only done it on a stockish motor. It's just a reasonable option, not a recommendation. YMMV.
yes, when you cannot get to a place with your torch. This however is not the case with this area or any place on a Vespa case. Just do the job right the first time.
Sun Nov 14, 2021 8:10 pm

Style Maven
'74 50s x3 '78 P200 E '84 Cosa '91 PK50XL2 '58 AllState '68 Sprint '80 50special and a '66(?) Super125
Joined: 22 Nov 2010
Posts: 8447
Location: seattle/athens
 
Style Maven
'74 50s x3 '78 P200 E '84 Cosa '91 PK50XL2 '58 AllState '68 Sprint '80 50special and a '66(?) Super125
Joined: 22 Nov 2010
Posts: 8447
Location: seattle/athens
Sun Nov 14, 2021 8:10 pm linkquote
Agreed, but I was referring to geographical locations and facilities, not places on the motor, lol. Do it as right as you can under the circumstances, always.
Sun Nov 14, 2021 8:25 pm

Hooked
1959 Allstate w PX Engine
Joined: 29 Nov 2020
Posts: 392
Location: Los Angeles
 
Hooked
1959 Allstate w PX Engine
Joined: 29 Nov 2020
Posts: 392
Location: Los Angeles
Sun Nov 14, 2021 8:25 pm linkquote
orwell84 wrote:
So looking at my cases, I was considering possibly doing some porting. I think the guy who did the case repairs could do the welding.
Machining here is harder to find, but it looks like some careful work with a dremel, file, surface plate, etc could get it done. The porting itself doesn't scare me. I would go really slow.

I guess my question is whether it is worth it for the level of performance I am looking for. Is it a significant difference or an incremental one?

Here is my understanding of where material would have to be added.
Not sure what level of performance you're looking for, but the 2 port Pinasco is designed for your application.
Really, you can go nut$ chasing the performance rabbit with all thing$ available to us. You could, theoretically, build a new scoot inside that chassis.
I bolted a 2 port kit to my bike in the 90's without porting anything. It got me reliably where I wanted to go. Only when I got into more performance thingys did I have trouble. That was before youtube
Mon Nov 15, 2021 6:47 am

Molto Verboso
Joined: 03 Nov 2011
Posts: 1404
Location: Racing Capital of the World
 
Molto Verboso
Joined: 03 Nov 2011
Posts: 1404
Location: Racing Capital of the World
Mon Nov 15, 2021 6:47 am linkquote
V oodoo wrote:
Agreed, but I was referring to geographical locations and facilities, not places on the motor, lol. Do it as right as you can under the circumstances, always.
Send it out and have it properly done.

Last edited by GickSpeed on Wed Nov 17, 2021 3:17 pm; edited 1 time in total
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