OP
@orwell84 avatar
UTC

Ossessionato
Joined: UTC
Posts: 3129
Location: northern New York
 
Ossessionato
@orwell84 avatar
Joined: UTC
Posts: 3129
Location: northern New York
UTC quote
I've been slowly putting together an order from Mercato. It's taking awhile to figure it out. Going with a long stroke crank with a PX taper requires the PX bearing and oil seal for the fly side. Clutch side stays the same.

I'm thinking the P taper will give me a wider choice of ignition systems and the thicker taper would be sturdier. I'm looking for cheap and basic for ignition. Any ideas?

Going to skip port work for this build.

Last thing I'm trying to figure out is clutch and gearing. I think a modest upgear is a good idea for a small top end bump. Anything more, I think you end up robbing Peter to pay Paul.

From my reading, it looks like the DRT 23t gear would work with the 67 primary and VBC gear set. I'm having trouble though figuring out what clutch that would go with.

I have used the French gear calculator and the scooter help one, but they don't have the exact combinations I am considering and they seem to give different results.

Sorry for the handwringing. Still don't know what I don't know. The clutch stuff seems complicated.
@socalguy avatar
UTC

bodgemaster
63 GL, 76 Super (x2), 74 Primavera (x2), 79 P200, 06 Fly 150
Joined: UTC
Posts: 7154
Location: So Cal
 
bodgemaster
@socalguy avatar
63 GL, 76 Super (x2), 74 Primavera (x2), 79 P200, 06 Fly 150
Joined: UTC
Posts: 7154
Location: So Cal
UTC quote
Don't stress about the clutch. You basically only have a few options:

- original 6-spring or a larger 7-spring? For your build a 6-spring should be fine, but you might consider getting a banded basket for some peace of mind. You'll have to modify the clutch cover a bit to fit a banded basket.

- if you go for a 7-spring, you can go with a standard or a Cosa-style. In either case, I'd suggest getting a larger clutch cover.

- whatever clutch you choose, a DRT 23T cog is a good option with a 67 primary and Super gears. Just make sure you get the right cog for the clutch you select. A cog made for a 6-spring won't fit a 7-spring, and a Cosa-style cog won't fit a non-Cosa clutch.

Hope this helps.
OP
@orwell84 avatar
UTC

Ossessionato
Joined: UTC
Posts: 3129
Location: northern New York
 
Ossessionato
@orwell84 avatar
Joined: UTC
Posts: 3129
Location: northern New York
UTC quote
Yes, that helps a lot. So far I have only found the drt 23t for a cosa 2 clutch.

Is it possible to find one for the stock 6 spring clutch?

Agree about the banded basket. I think I can weld the band on myself
@socalguy avatar
UTC

bodgemaster
63 GL, 76 Super (x2), 74 Primavera (x2), 79 P200, 06 Fly 150
Joined: UTC
Posts: 7154
Location: So Cal
 
bodgemaster
@socalguy avatar
63 GL, 76 Super (x2), 74 Primavera (x2), 79 P200, 06 Fly 150
Joined: UTC
Posts: 7154
Location: So Cal
UTC quote
This should work.
Forum member supplied image with no explanatory text
OP
@orwell84 avatar
UTC

Ossessionato
Joined: UTC
Posts: 3129
Location: northern New York
 
Ossessionato
@orwell84 avatar
Joined: UTC
Posts: 3129
Location: northern New York
UTC quote
SoCalGuy wrote:
This should work.
Awesome!

Thank you!
UTC

parallelogramerist
Joined: UTC
Posts: 5225
 
parallelogramerist
Joined: UTC
Posts: 5225
UTC quote
I'm not a fan of banded clutch baskets. The metal isn't any stronger than the original basket, so the clutch plate ears will wear into a banded basket just as easily. I'd highly recommend to spend the extra $$$ to go after a nice basket.
@v_oodoo avatar
UTC

Style Maven
'74 50s x3 '87 PK125XL '92 PK50XLS Plurimatic - & - '58 AllState '68 Sprint '66(?) Super125 and '72 DanMotor Super150
Joined: UTC
Posts: 9604
Location: seattle/athens
 
Style Maven
@v_oodoo avatar
'74 50s x3 '87 PK125XL '92 PK50XLS Plurimatic - & - '58 AllState '68 Sprint '66(?) Super125 and '72 DanMotor Super150
Joined: UTC
Posts: 9604
Location: seattle/athens
UTC quote
If you're going to invest in better parts anyway, I'd consider finding a good used 7 spring clutch and doing this. Depending on what you pay for a decent used clutch to rebuild, it would likely be cheaper and the CR corks are a nice treat.

Honda CR80 clutch disk page, what have you got?

I bet Whodat has 3 or 4 decent spare 7 springers laying around, and might be able to assist if you are interested...
OP
@orwell84 avatar
UTC

Ossessionato
Joined: UTC
Posts: 3129
Location: northern New York
 
Ossessionato
@orwell84 avatar
Joined: UTC
Posts: 3129
Location: northern New York
UTC quote
Thank you for the suggestion but I'm trying to keep extra tinkering to a minimum.

Is there a complete clutch with the cog that I need? There are so many variations.

Would this work?

https://www.sip-scootershop.com/en/product/clutch-sip-cosa-2-standard_93405100?cr=e993ab67-6807-4109-bbed-f6374ebf9f9b&gclid=EAIaIQobChMI4YrmkeWg9AIVX21vBB0FVgxtEAQYByABEgIlLPD_BwE
UTC

parallelogramerist
Joined: UTC
Posts: 5225
 
parallelogramerist
Joined: UTC
Posts: 5225
UTC quote
V oodoo wrote:
I bet Whodat has 3 or 4 decent spare 7 springers laying around, and might be able to assist if you are interested...
I'll have to see just what I have for 7 spring clutches. I just throw the baskets away whenever they get grooves in them. Only then do I replace them with something fancy.
@charlieman22 avatar
UTC

Nedminder
62 VBB1T Round Tail W/ leaner sidecar
Joined: UTC
Posts: 4096
Location: california
 
Nedminder
@charlieman22 avatar
62 VBB1T Round Tail W/ leaner sidecar
Joined: UTC
Posts: 4096
Location: california
UTC quote
Catching up late on this one.
Looks like a good project.
Scoot looks super solid - and its a round tail!
What's not to love?


Couple observations/ opinions to share:
- Rotary pad. The clearance to crank cheek is actually important. That creates the seal. Ideally you want .05mm - .1mm between crank and pad. That's pretty tight. The beed blasting was... brave - but beer not. It is now perfectly prepped for JB weld skim! - which is exactly what I would do.
Editor's note - this is coming from a guy that just machined and welded in a new rotary pad - amongst other craziness here: Vintage vespa with sidecar (**Now In Technicolor ! **) (Page 74)
- Best method for skim coating pad: buy a dummy main bearing so you can fit and refit your crank without pressing and heating. put your crank in and use it to create a mold for the rotary pad. Slop on some JB weld, put a .05+ wax paper or tape on the crank, slide it in to place to create the form for the jb weld to cure to. This will give you a super smooth ideal clearance tolerance. Tip - don't forget that .05 paper - the crank needs that clearance.
- Cylinders. Best bang for the buck plug and play that I've had was the BGM. Great pull and balance of power pretty much everywhere. For plug and play - I'm a fan. J. Gick likes the VMC. Heard good things about it as well.
- Speaking for the BGM, it will perform great plug and play - no need to go crazy porting the sides - not required - one of its calling cards. As for that front window - if you keep it with a negative draw when you carve out the shape - JB weld seems a reasonable choice. Cases have low pressure. JB has been used by many and often. Again - that's coming from a guy that welds aluminum. It's not as permanent of course If you decide to weld in there instead - just be aware - you may get some warpage from heat - and you will need to do some machining to get surfaces flat for case to case fit back together.

24mm carb, that SIP road exhaust, and what ever cylinder you choose will make it a ton more fun to ride.
Lots of good advise above.
Looks like you are doing nice work.
Good luck!
OP
@orwell84 avatar
UTC

Ossessionato
Joined: UTC
Posts: 3129
Location: northern New York
 
Ossessionato
@orwell84 avatar
Joined: UTC
Posts: 3129
Location: northern New York
UTC quote
Thanks for your suggestions. I have been reading along about your machining exploits and trying to follow along. The rotary pad repair was epic. I haven't understood all the theory but I have learned a lot from your thread and appreciate that you are sharing it here.

Yeah, the bead blasting...I'm going to try to measure the rotary pad and make sure it is still in spec. I tried to go easy on it with the bead blasting. It looked like it had aluminum debris transferred/smeared across the pad. It's also been repaired before. The crank cheek had some scoring too.

The port work that some of those cylinders require seems to go well beyond the case material. If/when I did, I would have it welded.

For this build I am trying to keep it as simple as possible and keep realistic expectations. I have found that a little knowledge can lead to big mistakes when changes are made without really understanding the whole picture.

These machines appear to be very simple, but that is a credit to the people who designed them. A minimalist design is sometimes harder to pull off than one that appears more complex.
@charlieman22 avatar
UTC

Nedminder
62 VBB1T Round Tail W/ leaner sidecar
Joined: UTC
Posts: 4096
Location: california
 
Nedminder
@charlieman22 avatar
62 VBB1T Round Tail W/ leaner sidecar
Joined: UTC
Posts: 4096
Location: california
UTC quote
Quote:
Yeah, the bead blasting...I'm going to try to measure the rotary pad and make sure it is still in spec. I tried to go easy on it with the bead blasting. It looked like it had aluminum debris transferred/smeared across the pad. It's also been repaired before. The crank cheek had some scoring too.
I'm told by those in the know - that the JB weld skim of the inlet pad is in the Vespa factory repair manual - so don't look at it as a lessor solution.
Having experienced it myself - can attest - it works very well.
Slow cure stuff has higher PSI rating.
The gold standard for skim coating is to first bead blast - so in my view - you have already taken the right first step!
See what type of clearance you have - but don't be shy about some skim coat if needed.
As for the craziness on my thread - its as much about experimenting and learning the machines and cast aluminum welding - as anything.

The BGM will perform very nicely with no work to the transfers.
Other's may also.
When time comes to build - get yourself a tube of unreasonably priced specialty sealer (I use HondaBond) for the cylinder base to make sure the cylinder seals nicely.


With exhaust/24mm carb/plug and play cylinder - you will be up around 12HP or a little over double what yours was when fresh and new.
They are super rideable at that range.
@chandlerman avatar
UTC

Lucky
76 Sprint V, 63 GL, 62 VBB, 05 Stella, 66 Smallstate, 79 P200E, 66 Lammy S3
Joined: UTC
Posts: 9833
Location: Nashville

46 Days Since Last Explosion
 
Lucky
@chandlerman avatar
76 Sprint V, 63 GL, 62 VBB, 05 Stella, 66 Smallstate, 79 P200E, 66 Lammy S3
Joined: UTC
Posts: 9833
Location: Nashville

46 Days Since Last Explosion
UTC quote
charlieman22 wrote:
I'm told by those in the know - that the JB weld skim of the inlet pad is in the Vespa factory repair manual - so don't look at it as a lessor solution.
I have a JBWeld-repaired rotary pads in both my VBB for over ten years and my Sprint for three, and the Sprint is a pretty well-tuned motor and runs great. So long as you're diligent about doing it anywhere close to "right," it'll serve you well for years to come.
charlieman22 wrote:
The BGM will perform very nicely with no work to the transfers.
Other's may also.
When time comes to build - get yourself a tube of unreasonably priced specialty sealer (I use HondaBond) for the cylinder base to make sure the cylinder seals nicely.
Check that the transfer ports match, as the BGM has gates on its transfers that are *supposed* to match stock ports, but are designed to be cut out by people like me, so it's an easy and no-risk bit of tuning.

And I just use a thin smear of cheap hi-temp RTV that's about $5/tube at the auto parts store and it works great. Then, take the savings from the Hondabond and build yourself a pressure test rig with the $10 you saved.

Being able to pressure test your motor and confirm you have no air leaks will save you immense amounts of time once you start dialing in the carb as well as reduce the odds of walking home when you're out on the road.
@socalguy avatar
UTC

bodgemaster
63 GL, 76 Super (x2), 74 Primavera (x2), 79 P200, 06 Fly 150
Joined: UTC
Posts: 7154
Location: So Cal
 
bodgemaster
@socalguy avatar
63 GL, 76 Super (x2), 74 Primavera (x2), 79 P200, 06 Fly 150
Joined: UTC
Posts: 7154
Location: So Cal
UTC quote
All good advice, except unless you're planning to really hog out the case transfers, lengthen the inlet, and cut back the crank, a 24/24 carb on a 177 kit is unnecessary. The performance gain vs a 20/20 is negligible, IMO, and depending on the set up, may even be a little less quick.
@charlieman22 avatar
UTC

Nedminder
62 VBB1T Round Tail W/ leaner sidecar
Joined: UTC
Posts: 4096
Location: california
 
Nedminder
@charlieman22 avatar
62 VBB1T Round Tail W/ leaner sidecar
Joined: UTC
Posts: 4096
Location: california
UTC quote
Socal has the experience on that carb answer - so save your money on that one and stick with the 20/20 if that's what you already have.
@chandlerman avatar
UTC

Lucky
76 Sprint V, 63 GL, 62 VBB, 05 Stella, 66 Smallstate, 79 P200E, 66 Lammy S3
Joined: UTC
Posts: 9833
Location: Nashville

46 Days Since Last Explosion
 
Lucky
@chandlerman avatar
76 Sprint V, 63 GL, 62 VBB, 05 Stella, 66 Smallstate, 79 P200E, 66 Lammy S3
Joined: UTC
Posts: 9833
Location: Nashville

46 Days Since Last Explosion
UTC quote
SoCalGuy wrote:
All good advice, except unless you're planning to really hog out the case transfers, lengthen the inlet, and cut back the crank, a 24/24 carb on a 177 kit is unnecessary. The performance gain vs a 20/20 is negligible, IMO, and depending on the set up, may even be a little less quick.
When I ran a bolted-on 177, the 24/24 was also hard to get dialed in on the mid-range. It set up pretty easily with the 20/20, though.
OP
@orwell84 avatar
UTC

Ossessionato
Joined: UTC
Posts: 3129
Location: northern New York
 
Ossessionato
@orwell84 avatar
Joined: UTC
Posts: 3129
Location: northern New York
UTC quote
Thanks to you both.

I truly understand and respect the trip(s) you are on. Someday I will post my conscious transportation and self sufficiency manifesto.

I believe you about the JB weld and have read the factory procedure for rotary pad repair. I left the bearings in the case so that I could check the clearance with the crank.

I will check out the BGM kit. I am going to run my list by Matt at Scooter Mercato before pulling the trigger and make sure everything is compatible and makes sense.
@chandlerman avatar
UTC

Lucky
76 Sprint V, 63 GL, 62 VBB, 05 Stella, 66 Smallstate, 79 P200E, 66 Lammy S3
Joined: UTC
Posts: 9833
Location: Nashville

46 Days Since Last Explosion
 
Lucky
@chandlerman avatar
76 Sprint V, 63 GL, 62 VBB, 05 Stella, 66 Smallstate, 79 P200E, 66 Lammy S3
Joined: UTC
Posts: 9833
Location: Nashville

46 Days Since Last Explosion
UTC quote
I'm a big fan of the BGM and have run through a few of them over the years. I might be the guy who's hogging out transfers and generally taking a Dremel to anything that can't outrun me, but they other way to look at it is that if it can tolerate me pushing it to 10,000 RPM's day after day, it's probably a solid kit and will do right by you from day one.
OP
@orwell84 avatar
UTC

Ossessionato
Joined: UTC
Posts: 3129
Location: northern New York
 
Ossessionato
@orwell84 avatar
Joined: UTC
Posts: 3129
Location: northern New York
UTC quote
I had a long talk with Dave at Scooter Mercato and he told me to email a description/list of what I wanted to build and go from there. I really haven't ruled out anything yet. Lots of interchange stuff I don't know about and they do. It should save some headaches all around.

Still have been busy getting a list of small jobs done on the VW bus. Enjoying it while I can because it goes off the road when the snow flies.

I did a little work on the scoot. Someone had done the can opener treatment on the tunnel, so I cut the rest of it out. I will either weld it up or make an access panel.

I did a bit of wire brushing and cleaning inside. It's pretty much surface rust. Now that I can get in there, I'm going to sandblast it clean and use master series in there. It worked great on the bus.
Can opener
Can opener
Tunnel looks good
Tunnel looks good
Master Series on the bus
Master Series on the bus
@chandlerman avatar
UTC

Lucky
76 Sprint V, 63 GL, 62 VBB, 05 Stella, 66 Smallstate, 79 P200E, 66 Lammy S3
Joined: UTC
Posts: 9833
Location: Nashville

46 Days Since Last Explosion
 
Lucky
@chandlerman avatar
76 Sprint V, 63 GL, 62 VBB, 05 Stella, 66 Smallstate, 79 P200E, 66 Lammy S3
Joined: UTC
Posts: 9833
Location: Nashville

46 Days Since Last Explosion
UTC quote
You gotta share some pictures of the bus in its entirety!
OP
@orwell84 avatar
UTC

Ossessionato
Joined: UTC
Posts: 3129
Location: northern New York
 
Ossessionato
@orwell84 avatar
Joined: UTC
Posts: 3129
Location: northern New York
UTC quote
You're on!
Endless, tedious engine build tracking down NOS German parts made from bucket helmets. Measuring cam gear backlash.
Endless, tedious engine build tracking down NOS German parts made from bucket helmets. Measuring cam gear backlash.
2 liter engine looks like a beast. Pushing a 3 ton Westfalia, Granny's K-car could still kick its ass.
2 liter engine looks like a beast. Pushing a 3 ton Westfalia, Granny's K-car could still kick its ass.
Endless dabbing, fitting, welding and grinding.
Endless dabbing, fitting, welding and grinding.
The sheet metal repair is pretty much done but it still looks like crap. I put off painting to make it mechanically reliable. Shiny paint won't get you down the road.
The sheet metal repair is pretty much done but it still looks like crap. I put off painting to make it mechanically reliable. Shiny paint won't get you down the road.
@chandlerman avatar
UTC

Lucky
76 Sprint V, 63 GL, 62 VBB, 05 Stella, 66 Smallstate, 79 P200E, 66 Lammy S3
Joined: UTC
Posts: 9833
Location: Nashville

46 Days Since Last Explosion
 
Lucky
@chandlerman avatar
76 Sprint V, 63 GL, 62 VBB, 05 Stella, 66 Smallstate, 79 P200E, 66 Lammy S3
Joined: UTC
Posts: 9833
Location: Nashville

46 Days Since Last Explosion
UTC quote
It's already lookin' good! And, as you noted above, it's nice that you're getting out and taking advantage of it before the snow flies.
@charlieman22 avatar
UTC

Nedminder
62 VBB1T Round Tail W/ leaner sidecar
Joined: UTC
Posts: 4096
Location: california
 
Nedminder
@charlieman22 avatar
62 VBB1T Round Tail W/ leaner sidecar
Joined: UTC
Posts: 4096
Location: california
UTC quote
Bus is a WOW.
Very cool restoration.
And what better compliment to a bus than a VBB?
Perhaps they should be in a matching color?
@safis avatar
UTC

Ossessionato
1979 P150X, 1983 P200E, 1987 PK125XL Elestart, 1988 T5, 1995 PX200E, 2011 Yamaha Fazer 600 S2
Joined: UTC
Posts: 4275
Location: Veria, Greece
 
Ossessionato
@safis avatar
1979 P150X, 1983 P200E, 1987 PK125XL Elestart, 1988 T5, 1995 PX200E, 2011 Yamaha Fazer 600 S2
Joined: UTC
Posts: 4275
Location: Veria, Greece
UTC quote
Nice T2. We had one in 1992 and then moved to a T3 till 2009. Both had Subaru EA series water cooled engines in them. The T2 had a carbed EA82 1800cc engine and on the T3 we installed a fuel injected EA82T 1800cc Turbo engine. The T3 was a wolf in sheep's clothing. If we didn't have stupid vehicles laws in Greece we would have still kept the T3. My favorite vehicle of all the ones my father had through the years...
OP
@orwell84 avatar
UTC

Ossessionato
Joined: UTC
Posts: 3129
Location: northern New York
 
Ossessionato
@orwell84 avatar
Joined: UTC
Posts: 3129
Location: northern New York
UTC quote
I did a quick check of my rotary pad and was easily able to slip a .004" feeler gauge so I will need to repair it with JB weld.

I'm getting to the point where I am seriously considering to the PX platform and start fresh with a new case. So far, the only things I would saving from the old VBC engine is the case, gear set and Christmas tree. The threads on the VBC driveshaft are not in great shape.

I can find complete LML EFL gear boxes for under $200. I also located a Malossi stock case which is about the same price as their V1.

David at Scooter Mercato kind of put the bug in my ear during our last conversation...If you have to replace all that stuff anyway...

When I weigh time, energy and ass ache, it seems like the extra money may not be that bad as I dont have a lot of time to tinker and my hands will be full with getting the chassis done. More power than I could probably use on 8's, but more is never too much. Cry once, as they say.

Oh yeah, getting married next year...That shit won't fly anymore...

Is this a crazy idea? I mean the engine...marriage is always a crazy idea.
@gickspeed avatar
UTC

Ossessionato
Joined: UTC
Posts: 2114
Location: Racing Capital of the World
 
Ossessionato
@gickspeed avatar
Joined: UTC
Posts: 2114
Location: Racing Capital of the World
UTC quote
Since you might be going down the road of using a P/PX platform engine, one idea that would not break the bank (over new cases and buying internal components) is using a P125X lump and building that out using a modern cylinder, ignition, & clutch. There are a lot of gear ratios in the market now to match up the power output on 8".


Here is one that I did for a CA guy using a VMC 177/24-63 primary/Pinasco Drum. This turned out better than expected. (late Sprint, but P125X would be nearly the same in practice).

So something to consider anyways.
Forum member supplied image with no explanatory text
Forum member supplied image with no explanatory text
Forum member supplied image with no explanatory text
Forum member supplied image with no explanatory text
Forum member supplied image with no explanatory text
Forum member supplied image with no explanatory text
Forum member supplied image with no explanatory text
⚠️ Last edited by GickSpeed on UTC; edited 2 times
OP
@orwell84 avatar
UTC

Ossessionato
Joined: UTC
Posts: 3129
Location: northern New York
 
Ossessionato
@orwell84 avatar
Joined: UTC
Posts: 3129
Location: northern New York
UTC quote
Thank you. That's nice work. I like what you've done with the VMC kits.
@qascooter avatar
UTC

Ossessionato
79 P200E (Ruby), 62 Allstate (B-62)
Joined: UTC
Posts: 4260
Location: Florence, OR
 
Ossessionato
@qascooter avatar
79 P200E (Ruby), 62 Allstate (B-62)
Joined: UTC
Posts: 4260
Location: Florence, OR
UTC quote
Oh man, that's beautiful!
@ray8 avatar
UTC

Molto Verboso
Joined: UTC
Posts: 1874
Location: Los Angeles
 
Molto Verboso
@ray8 avatar
Joined: UTC
Posts: 1874
Location: Los Angeles
UTC quote
orwell84 wrote:
I'm getting to the point where I am seriously considering to the PX platform and start fresh with a new case. So far, the only things I would saving from the old VBC engine is the case, gear set and Christmas tree. The threads on the VBC driveshaft are not in great shape.


Oh yeah, getting married next year...That shit won't fly anymore...

Is this a crazy idea? I mean the engine...marriage is always a crazy idea.
What do you imagine doing with your finished project?
Reliable café or grocery-run scoot?
60 on 8's?

I don't think you will find new or used px cases less a time sap.
And that rotary pad work can be done in a few hours.
OP
@orwell84 avatar
UTC

Ossessionato
Joined: UTC
Posts: 3129
Location: northern New York
 
Ossessionato
@orwell84 avatar
Joined: UTC
Posts: 3129
Location: northern New York
UTC quote
qascooter wrote:
Oh man, that's beautiful!
I would like to build something that can do long trips and hold 55 mph for extended periods on 2 lane state highways and have a little extra to get out of the way. I wouldn't be taking it on interstates, it's just not fun. I did a fair amount of this years ago when I lived in Ontario, but with a 150 on tens. Speed limits for similar highways were 80 kmph but really about the same.

I think I'm going in circles at this point. There are lots of different ways to build an engine. I'm just going to run this all by Matt at scooter Mercato and make a decision.

Basically 2 pathways...Build around the VBC case with one of the combinations suggested or start fresh with a new case and build something bigger. Price it out and see what works out best for time, money and expectations.
@gickspeed avatar
UTC

Ossessionato
Joined: UTC
Posts: 2114
Location: Racing Capital of the World
 
Ossessionato
@gickspeed avatar
Joined: UTC
Posts: 2114
Location: Racing Capital of the World
UTC quote
orwell84 wrote:
I would like to build something that can do long trips and hold 55 mph for extended periods on 2 lane state highways and have a little extra to get out of the way. I wouldn't be taking it on interstates, it's just not fun. I did a fair amount of this years ago when I lived in Ontario, but with a 150 on tens. Speed limits for similar highways were 80 kmph but really about the same.

I think I'm going in circles at this point. There are lots of different ways to build an engine. I'm just going to run this all by Matt at scooter Mercato and make a decision.

Basically 2 pathways...Build around the VBC case with one of the combinations suggested or start fresh with a new case and build something bigger. Price it out and see what works out best for time, money and expectations.
Price between VBC build and new case & internals will be a big difference.

I still think working with a P125X Engine and building around that will be more economical.
OP
@orwell84 avatar
UTC

Ossessionato
Joined: UTC
Posts: 3129
Location: northern New York
 
Ossessionato
@orwell84 avatar
Joined: UTC
Posts: 3129
Location: northern New York
UTC quote
GickSpeed wrote:
Price between VBC build and new case & internals will be a big difference.

I still think working with a P125X Engine and building around that will be more economical.
Yes, probably at least twice as much. How do the p125 cases compare to the 200 cases. Can the 125 case be used with a 200 cylinder? All I have seen for used cases are LML from India.
@gickspeed avatar
UTC

Ossessionato
Joined: UTC
Posts: 2114
Location: Racing Capital of the World
 
Ossessionato
@gickspeed avatar
Joined: UTC
Posts: 2114
Location: Racing Capital of the World
UTC quote
orwell84 wrote:
Yes, probably at least twice as much. How do the p125 cases compare to the 200 cases. Can the 125 case be used with a 200 cylinder? All I have seen for used cases are LML from India.
Small block cylinders must be run on small block cases; big block cylinders must be run on big block.

So you have the :

P125/150 (small block) Run anything under 190

P200 (big block) Run anything 200 and up.
@socalguy avatar
UTC

bodgemaster
63 GL, 76 Super (x2), 74 Primavera (x2), 79 P200, 06 Fly 150
Joined: UTC
Posts: 7154
Location: So Cal
 
bodgemaster
@socalguy avatar
63 GL, 76 Super (x2), 74 Primavera (x2), 79 P200, 06 Fly 150
Joined: UTC
Posts: 7154
Location: So Cal
UTC quote
What exactly is the problem with your VBC case? Unless it's trashed it should be perfectly fine for what you're planning to build.
@ray8 avatar
UTC

Molto Verboso
Joined: UTC
Posts: 1874
Location: Los Angeles
 
Molto Verboso
@ray8 avatar
Joined: UTC
Posts: 1874
Location: Los Angeles
UTC quote
SoCalGuy wrote:
What exactly is the problem with your VBC case? Unless it's trashed it should be perfectly fine for what you're planning to build.
Agree.
Pinasco 2 port kit and the things mentioned here in the second paragraph:
https://www.scootermercato.com/Scooter-Parts/Pinasco/25030804

I'd add SIP Performance brake kits (CNC drum) front and rear, replace all cables and outers with SIP Performance cables and add a DRT or BGM complete clutch. Replace anything you wouldn't feel comfortable riding at 55mph and done.

Actually you could maybe find a fuel injected Piaggio Liberty with 14's and abs brakes for what you'll save not going wild chasing that maximum performance rabbit.
It'll feel a heck of a lot better going 55.
OP
@orwell84 avatar
UTC

Ossessionato
Joined: UTC
Posts: 3129
Location: northern New York
 
Ossessionato
@orwell84 avatar
Joined: UTC
Posts: 3129
Location: northern New York
UTC quote
SoCalGuy wrote:
What exactly is the problem with your VBC case? Unless it's trashed it should be perfectly fine for what you're planning to build.
Nothing really wrong with either case. Rotary pad on one or both might need a skim of JB weld or metal epoxy as Charlieman described. I agree that for this application, JB weld is fine. I once used it to attach a temp sensor to a VW cylinder head fin and it stayed put until I removed it.

I guess I have this assumption that somehow a close to stock 200 would perform much better and be more reliable than a kitted 150, but this is not based on actual experience.

The point is well taken that for the cost of building a 200 or 210 engine from scratch with spendy performance parts, I could probably buy a whole nuther bike...even a decent running p200 project.

My eyes get real big looking at all the performance parts in the many on-line candy stores that sell them, so I guess I lose perspective. VW type 4 has stuff like that too as it's interchangeable with Porsche 914 but I would have to sell more organs than my body contains, so it's not even a consideration. It doesn't do much for a bus either except overheat it or tip it over.

Thanks for bearing with me.
@socalguy avatar
UTC

bodgemaster
63 GL, 76 Super (x2), 74 Primavera (x2), 79 P200, 06 Fly 150
Joined: UTC
Posts: 7154
Location: So Cal
 
bodgemaster
@socalguy avatar
63 GL, 76 Super (x2), 74 Primavera (x2), 79 P200, 06 Fly 150
Joined: UTC
Posts: 7154
Location: So Cal
UTC quote
A close to stock 200 would not perform much better and be more reliable than a kitted 150. You're getting bad info.
@gickspeed avatar
UTC

Ossessionato
Joined: UTC
Posts: 2114
Location: Racing Capital of the World
 
Ossessionato
@gickspeed avatar
Joined: UTC
Posts: 2114
Location: Racing Capital of the World
UTC quote
SoCalGuy wrote:
A close to stock 200 would not perform much better and be more reliable than a kitted 150. You're getting bad info.
exactly: BGM177, VMC177.

let go of 20 year old technology and embrace modern parts, research & development. . It doesn't even have to be radical to get fantastic results.
@geeklion avatar
UTC

The Dude
Too Many piles of Junk that need too much work and too much money
Joined: UTC
Posts: 1670
Location: PNW from LBC
 
The Dude
@geeklion avatar
Too Many piles of Junk that need too much work and too much money
Joined: UTC
Posts: 1670
Location: PNW from LBC
UTC quote
GickSpeed wrote:
let go of 20 year old technology and embrace modern parts, research & development. . It doesn't even have to be radical to get fantastic results.
Good advice. Well chosen parts, and build strategies; will get you leaps and bounds from the original without costing a fortune.
OP
@orwell84 avatar
UTC

Ossessionato
Joined: UTC
Posts: 3129
Location: northern New York
 
Ossessionato
@orwell84 avatar
Joined: UTC
Posts: 3129
Location: northern New York
UTC quote
Thanks. Some incorrect assumptions on my part.
DoubleGood Design banner

Modern Vespa is the premier site for modern Vespa and Piaggio scooters. Vespa GTS300, GTS250, GTV, GT200, LX150, LXS, ET4, ET2, MP3, Fuoco, Elettrica and more.

Buy Me A Coffee
 

Shop on Amazon with Modern Vespa

Modern Vespa is a participant in the Amazon Services LLC Associates Program, an affiliate advertising program designed to provide a means for sites to earn advertising fees by advertising and linking to amazon.com


All Content Copyright 2005-2024 by Modern Vespa.
All Rights Reserved.


[ Time: 0.0402s ][ Queries: 6 (0.0205s) ][ live ][ 313 ][ ThingOne ]