Tue Nov 16, 2021 11:10 pm

Ossessionato
62 VBB1T Round Tail W/ leaner sidecar
Joined: 26 Jan 2019
Posts: 3123
Location: california
 
Ossessionato
62 VBB1T Round Tail W/ leaner sidecar
Joined: 26 Jan 2019
Posts: 3123
Location: california
Tue Nov 16, 2021 11:10 pm linkquote
Pretty cool Swiss
Thu Nov 18, 2021 2:31 pm

Ossessionato
VSX, Stella 177, Stella 150, VNX1T, V9A1T, V9B1T
Joined: 20 Jul 2018
Posts: 3713
Location: Staten Island, NY
 
Ossessionato
VSX, Stella 177, Stella 150, VNX1T, V9A1T, V9B1T
Joined: 20 Jul 2018
Posts: 3713
Location: Staten Island, NY
Thu Nov 18, 2021 2:31 pm linkquote
Tank #2 done and in great shape. Genuine Stella oiler tank that was pretty damn nasty.

Before:




Wire brush followed by two 2 hr rounds of shock treatment.. right side up, and bottom side up to get the rust off the interior of the top and filler neck. Power wash and wd-40 and it looks great now.


after







Thu Nov 18, 2021 4:43 pm

Lucky
76 Sprint V, 63 GL, 62 VBB, 05 Stella, 66 Smallstate, 08 Stella (for now)
Joined: 16 Jun 2011
Posts: 5615
Location: Nashville
 
Lucky
76 Sprint V, 63 GL, 62 VBB, 05 Stella, 66 Smallstate, 08 Stella (for now)
Joined: 16 Jun 2011
Posts: 5615
Location: Nashville
Thu Nov 18, 2021 4:43 pm linkquote
That's an amazing turnaround right there. Really shows the power of what's possible if you just throw some smart effort at it.
Thu Nov 18, 2021 4:59 pm

Ossessionato
79 P200E (Ruby), 62 Allstate (B-62), 2008 Stella (Olive)
Joined: 11 Jan 2006
Posts: 2959
Location: Florence, OR
 
Ossessionato
79 P200E (Ruby), 62 Allstate (B-62), 2008 Stella (Olive)
Joined: 11 Jan 2006
Posts: 2959
Location: Florence, OR
Thu Nov 18, 2021 4:59 pm linkquote
Wow! Fantastic! CM is spot on, what a great job.
Fri Dec 10, 2021 1:24 pm

Ossessionato
VSX, Stella 177, Stella 150, VNX1T, V9A1T, V9B1T
Joined: 20 Jul 2018
Posts: 3713
Location: Staten Island, NY
 
Ossessionato
VSX, Stella 177, Stella 150, VNX1T, V9A1T, V9B1T
Joined: 20 Jul 2018
Posts: 3713
Location: Staten Island, NY
Fri Dec 10, 2021 1:24 pm linkquote
I just got 1.5 engine cases back from the welder I found a few weeks ago. I had him fix the cracked bolt hole in the 125 small side case, plus add material outside the ports on both the stella and the small half of the 125 case. the large side 125 was still at machinist when I dropped the rest off at welder. I grabbed it from machinist and dropped it off today when I picked the rest of the welded cases up. He welded the outside of ports on the 125 large half today.

I noticed when I got home that he only welded the 2 divots in the outside of the stella large half ports and didnt bridge the space between them to add more meat all the way around the port. I'm not sure if I would be widening completely there to the point of breakthrough, but I called him and mentioned to bridge across the whole width of the outside of ports on the last half I gave him today. He said he did and will fix the half he didn't bridge completely tomorrow while I'm there picking the last half up. Also said if I end up dremeling through at all to just bring it back and he'll fill it in quick no additional charge. $200 for 2 full engines with extra meat outside the ports and the one crack fix.

My only other concern is I didn't mention not to flatten out the weld at the crack on the gasket side. I was gonna have the machinist smooth it out even with the rest of the gasket surface so it was perfect. The welder ended up grinding it flat which I haven't checked yet, but might have left the smallest fraction of a mm gap where the case halves meet at that bolt hole point. Im hoping a gasket with honda bond will be enough to keep the case from leaking when closed and torqued down. If it leaks then I may have to bring that half back to him and have him weld some extra material on the gasket side where he ground it flat and then take it to machinist to mill it perfectly flat.

I'll be dropping the full 125 case back off at the machinist next week to drill the bolt hole back from his weld and remove the still stuck bolts which he hadn't gotten to yet.


p125 small side. cracked bolt hole re-welded. Need new hole machined.


welder flattened the weld out on the gasket side. hoping the small amount of unevenness as a result of his grinding won't cause and oil leaks in the case when closed.


125 small side extra meat for widening ports.


stella engine #2 large side extra meat for widening. He's gonna bridge extra material between the two piles tomorrow when I grab the last half he finished today.


stella engine #2 small side extra meat for widening ports.

Fri Dec 10, 2021 2:58 pm

Ossessionato
VSX, Stella 177, Stella 150, VNX1T, V9A1T, V9B1T
Joined: 20 Jul 2018
Posts: 3713
Location: Staten Island, NY
 
Ossessionato
VSX, Stella 177, Stella 150, VNX1T, V9A1T, V9B1T
Joined: 20 Jul 2018
Posts: 3713
Location: Staten Island, NY
Fri Dec 10, 2021 2:58 pm linkquote
So the gasket surface grinding looks maybe 1mm gap was created. I'm thinking I might have to ask the welder to just add some welds back onto the gasket surface there and have the machinist mill it back to flush.

Unless the consensus is this gap is minimal with gasket and healthy coating of honda bond.



Fri Dec 10, 2021 3:04 pm

Molto Verboso
Joined: 03 Nov 2011
Posts: 1491
Location: Racing Capital of the World
 
Molto Verboso
Joined: 03 Nov 2011
Posts: 1491
Location: Racing Capital of the World
Fri Dec 10, 2021 3:04 pm linkquote
swiss1939 wrote:
I just got 1.5 engine cases back from the welder I found a few weeks ago. I had him fix the cracked bolt hole in the 125 small side case, plus add material outside the ports on both the stella and the small half of the 125 case. the large side 125 was still at machinist when I dropped the rest off at welder. I grabbed it from machinist and dropped it off today when I picked the rest of the welded cases up. He welded the outside of ports on the 125 large half today.

I noticed when I got home that he only welded the 2 divots in the outside of the stella large half ports and didnt bridge the space between them to add more meat all the way around the port. I'm not sure if I would be widening completely there to the point of breakthrough, but I called him and mentioned to bridge across the whole width of the outside of ports on the last half I gave him today. He said he did and will fix the half he didn't bridge completely tomorrow while I'm there picking the last half up. Also said if I end up dremeling through at all to just bring it back and he'll fill it in quick no additional charge. $200 for 2 full engines with extra meat outside the ports and the one crack fix.

My only other concern is I didn't mention not to flatten out the weld at the crack on the gasket side. I was gonna have the machinist smooth it out even with the rest of the gasket surface so it was perfect. The welder ended up grinding it flat which I haven't checked yet, but might have left the smallest fraction of a mm gap where the case halves meet at that bolt hole point. Im hoping a gasket with honda bond will be enough to keep the case from leaking when closed and torqued down. If it leaks then I may have to bring that half back to him and have him weld some extra material on the gasket side where he ground it flat and then take it to machinist to mill it perfectly flat.

I'll be dropping the full 125 case back off at the machinist next week to drill the bolt hole back from his weld and remove the still stuck bolts which he hadn't gotten to yet.
That is kinda rough and you can blame some of that on trying to weld dirty cases. When i get a set of cases, first thing i do is clean them up prior to TIG welding. I would not be super happy about that work.


Aim for this.


Aim for this.

Fri Dec 10, 2021 3:11 pm

Ossessionato
VSX, Stella 177, Stella 150, VNX1T, V9A1T, V9B1T
Joined: 20 Jul 2018
Posts: 3713
Location: Staten Island, NY
 
Ossessionato
VSX, Stella 177, Stella 150, VNX1T, V9A1T, V9B1T
Joined: 20 Jul 2018
Posts: 3713
Location: Staten Island, NY
Fri Dec 10, 2021 3:11 pm linkquote
I live and I learn. I was trying to use local guys. My fault for not getting the cases blasted first. This guy was also a random guy I found on the same block as the guy who I was referred to was. The guy I was referred to couldn't get it done cause his tig machine is currently broken.

As long as they are solid through and it holds up.. may not be the prettiest but it will get the job done and is better than JB weld!
Fri Dec 10, 2021 6:54 pm

Lucky
76 Sprint V, 63 GL, 62 VBB, 05 Stella, 66 Smallstate, 08 Stella (for now)
Joined: 16 Jun 2011
Posts: 5615
Location: Nashville
 
Lucky
76 Sprint V, 63 GL, 62 VBB, 05 Stella, 66 Smallstate, 08 Stella (for now)
Joined: 16 Jun 2011
Posts: 5615
Location: Nashville
Fri Dec 10, 2021 6:54 pm linkquote
Unfortunately, the areas I circled are where I have mostly broken through when porting transfers.



Fri Dec 10, 2021 7:43 pm

Ossessionato
62 VBB1T Round Tail W/ leaner sidecar
Joined: 26 Jan 2019
Posts: 3123
Location: california
 
Ossessionato
62 VBB1T Round Tail W/ leaner sidecar
Joined: 26 Jan 2019
Posts: 3123
Location: california
Fri Dec 10, 2021 7:43 pm linkquote
Swiss,
My $.02
The gap isn't that bad - and I would not weld.
Likely to make worse than better.
Honda bond should be able to cover.
Back up plan would be JB weld with seran wrap to seperate.
Bolt cases together - let the JB squeeze out - then knife it back to a nice shape after it starts to cure but before it gets hard as a rock.

Sounds like you are developing a local source for welding.
That's not such a bad thing.
There is always learning curve.

With this in mind - I would go back to him and add a bit of material.
See pictures below for explanation.

Agree with Chandlerman - a bit of extension downward in a V shape will be helpful in the areas he circled for you. Easier to add now before you Dremel through - and it becomes razor thin.


You want these welded areas to be higher than surrounding cylinder gasket sealing surface - then they need to be machined back down (perfectly flat) Above is the picture of yours - you can see he was trying not to screw up your gasket surface


Here is an example where its been welded - then machined down flat. Need to be careful not to have same issue as with the cases - you want this perfectly flat if possible.

Fri Dec 10, 2021 7:57 pm

Ossessionato
Joined: 26 Oct 2015
Posts: 3529

 
Ossessionato
Joined: 26 Oct 2015
Posts: 3529

Fri Dec 10, 2021 7:57 pm linkquote
I'd be REAL tempted to ship those cases to the Racing Capital of the World to get fixed
Fri Dec 10, 2021 8:09 pm

Lucky
76 Sprint V, 63 GL, 62 VBB, 05 Stella, 66 Smallstate, 08 Stella (for now)
Joined: 16 Jun 2011
Posts: 5615
Location: Nashville
 
Lucky
76 Sprint V, 63 GL, 62 VBB, 05 Stella, 66 Smallstate, 08 Stella (for now)
Joined: 16 Jun 2011
Posts: 5615
Location: Nashville
Fri Dec 10, 2021 8:09 pm linkquote
In case you were wondering about where I'm referring to breaking through...



Fri Dec 10, 2021 8:28 pm

Ossessionato
62 VBB1T Round Tail W/ leaner sidecar
Joined: 26 Jan 2019
Posts: 3123
Location: california
 
Ossessionato
62 VBB1T Round Tail W/ leaner sidecar
Joined: 26 Jan 2019
Posts: 3123
Location: california
Fri Dec 10, 2021 8:28 pm linkquote
CM - hahaha.
Swiss - to clarify - my post assumed that the cylinder would overhang the existing case surface.
If that's not the case - then obviously you don't need to extend up and machine back as I noted.
Fri Dec 10, 2021 9:38 pm

Ossessionato
Vespas 1964 GS160, 1965 SS180, 1977 V9A1T, 1983 PX150E
Joined: 16 Apr 2011
Posts: 2076
Location: Siam
 
Ossessionato
Vespas 1964 GS160, 1965 SS180, 1977 V9A1T, 1983 PX150E
Joined: 16 Apr 2011
Posts: 2076
Location: Siam
Fri Dec 10, 2021 9:38 pm linkquote
chandlerman wrote:
In case you were wondering about where I'm referring to breaking through...
Holy smokes! (Pun intended)
I guess that's a ruined gonner, right, or can that actually be repaired?
Sat Dec 11, 2021 9:32 am

Ossessionato
VSX, Stella 177, Stella 150, VNX1T, V9A1T, V9B1T
Joined: 20 Jul 2018
Posts: 3713
Location: Staten Island, NY
 
Ossessionato
VSX, Stella 177, Stella 150, VNX1T, V9A1T, V9B1T
Joined: 20 Jul 2018
Posts: 3713
Location: Staten Island, NY
Sat Dec 11, 2021 9:32 am linkquote
They may not be pretty but they look to be fine internally. I shaped the bolt hole fix blob in prep for the machinist to re drill the bolt hole. Welds were solid. The p125 cases I'm leaving as is with enough extra outside the ports to widen at the top but not be very deep into the ports with it. That's fine enough for me. Less case volume.. higher pressures, but with wider ports at the base gasket!

I gave him back the Stella cases and he's filling in the missing bridge on the outside of the large side port. And I also asked him to go slightly lower with the small side below the big glob he already did so that I can go deeper and wider with the Stella grinding. I'll have the Stella cases back tomorrow. P125 case I gotta drop back off at the machinist some time next week hopefully I can get home from work early enough cause he's got limited hours during the week. Ideally he'll be able to remove the stuck bolts and re drill the welded bolt hole before I leave for Florida on Dec 21.

Both of these engines should be well Under way by early January!


P125 case. Sure I didn't have him weld inside the clutch section, just means don't go so deep with the widening ports.



Sun Dec 12, 2021 7:45 am

Lucky
76 Sprint V, 63 GL, 62 VBB, 05 Stella, 66 Smallstate, 08 Stella (for now)
Joined: 16 Jun 2011
Posts: 5615
Location: Nashville
 
Lucky
76 Sprint V, 63 GL, 62 VBB, 05 Stella, 66 Smallstate, 08 Stella (for now)
Joined: 16 Jun 2011
Posts: 5615
Location: Nashville
Sun Dec 12, 2021 7:45 am linkquote
nomadinsiam wrote:
Holy smokes! (Pun intended)
I guess that's a ruined gonner, right, or can that actually be repaired?
I fixed that with JBWeld and it's in my GL right now, putting out 24 or 25 HP, if you can believe it. I'll eventually rebuild it by welding in aluminum, but not until something major enough breaks that I need to pull the motor, so hopefully not any time soon.
Sun Dec 12, 2021 8:32 am

Molto Verboso
Vespa
Joined: 19 Jun 2007
Posts: 1411
Location: California
 
Molto Verboso
Vespa
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Posts: 1411
Location: California
Sun Dec 12, 2021 8:32 am linkquote
Seems like an excellent case for Gick pun intended.
Sun Dec 12, 2021 8:51 am

Lucky
76 Sprint V, 63 GL, 62 VBB, 05 Stella, 66 Smallstate, 08 Stella (for now)
Joined: 16 Jun 2011
Posts: 5615
Location: Nashville
 
Lucky
76 Sprint V, 63 GL, 62 VBB, 05 Stella, 66 Smallstate, 08 Stella (for now)
Joined: 16 Jun 2011
Posts: 5615
Location: Nashville
Sun Dec 12, 2021 8:51 am linkquote
hibbert wrote:
Seems like an excellent case for Gick pun intended.
He dies a little inside every time someone JBWelds a case, but I'm now almost past that point. I have a spool gun for my welder en-route so I'll be able to do my own aluminum welding soon enough.
Sun Dec 12, 2021 9:23 am

Ossessionato
Joined: 26 Oct 2015
Posts: 3529

 
Ossessionato
Joined: 26 Oct 2015
Posts: 3529

Sun Dec 12, 2021 9:23 am linkquote
A spool gun is great for bigger, thicker fixes, but for precise controlled heat in a particual spot, they are pretty much worthless. They also throw hot dingleberries everywhere that WILL melt themselves into the aluminum cases. I figure i can legitimately say that since i have a spool gun. For anything precise (or half-way precise) i have to go over to a friend's house and have him use his TIG welder on my junk.
Sun Dec 12, 2021 10:07 am

Ossessionato
VSX, Stella 177, Stella 150, VNX1T, V9A1T, V9B1T
Joined: 20 Jul 2018
Posts: 3713
Location: Staten Island, NY
 
Ossessionato
VSX, Stella 177, Stella 150, VNX1T, V9A1T, V9B1T
Joined: 20 Jul 2018
Posts: 3713
Location: Staten Island, NY
Sun Dec 12, 2021 10:07 am linkquote
hibbert wrote:
Seems like an excellent case for Gick pun intended.
Pun appreciated!

Gick's skill/quality/professionalism is recognized and I wish he were closer physically so that I could go to him all the time for crap like this. He did great work on my cylinder a couple years ago and the probability is high that I will send at minimum the small half of the p125 case to him to fix, and possibly even both full cases to fix/clean up this guys welds. Gick's prices are also great and he's up front about time it takes to do his work!

What I run up against is having to ship large objects to him for work done. If there are local quality options then it only makes sense to me to stay local and avoid shipping. This time I was trying to save hassle of packing and shipping two large engine cases 1500 miles and back, especially right now near the holidays where my recent experience has shipping taking for-ev-er! But the shipping and turnaround time shipping would have clearly been the better option this time as Gick has rightly pointed out.. not a stellar job done!

I've also been trying my damndest to find local sources for these skilled labor jobs, but its proving difficult to find people who have a.) the skill, b.) the desire to do these types of jobs. If you don't have the ability to do it yourself.. its definitely tough to find local options at least around here. Maybe its the mentality of ny'ers or something, but everyone I've found is some combination of not really great quality work, or couldn't be bothered with these types of jobs but willing to string someone along while they hold onto it. Which is amazing to me as there are tons of industrial shops around.

Not to bitch about these local guys, cause I understand that they are good at what they do and my stuff is most likely out of their wheel house in terms of interest or value for time spent! Similarly, when people contact me to do video jobs that I have a doubt about if I have time for it or if I don't think its worth my time, except I don't waste their time. If its something I think is not worth my time or effort I just turn the job down and if I can refer someone else who I think will fit the job better, I refer them to someone else. I would rather make the decision to take the job and do it right and not let it sit on the table forever so to speak, than deal with a job I'm not sure about or don't have the time for. I guess I'm fighting progress refusing to admit that these skills are becoming more rare to the point that there are only so many people in the country that can do the work with quality.

Regardless, with this current p125 case, I'm less concerned with the ugly welds that appear to be solid, but somewhat concerned with the gasket mating surfaces not sealing properly anymore. I'm going to bolt the empty case together with gasket and honda bond for a couple weeks or so with some oil inside it to see if it leaks through that concern spot. If so, then the case is going to Gick for the professional quality treatment if he is willing to fix someone elses work and my mistake trying to save effort and time going local!

Unfortunately, unlike a lot of you guys.. the reality of me learning and getting to do my own welding/milling/lathe work is very low for the foreseable future despite the desire to learn it myself. I just don't have access to the proper power outlets or appropriate space to safely do any of this type of work. Severely limited by nyc apartments and the tiny 15a outlet in my rented garage.
⬆️    About 5 months elapsed between posts    ⬇️
Fri May 13, 2022 2:49 pm

Ossessionato
VSX, Stella 177, Stella 150, VNX1T, V9A1T, V9B1T
Joined: 20 Jul 2018
Posts: 3713
Location: Staten Island, NY
 
Ossessionato
VSX, Stella 177, Stella 150, VNX1T, V9A1T, V9B1T
Joined: 20 Jul 2018
Posts: 3713
Location: Staten Island, NY
Fri May 13, 2022 2:49 pm linkquote
Back to one of these finally. Stella case prep. Just noticed the welds were sticking out above the cylinder mating surface with one splatter that made a divot on the mating face. Started decking it with 120 grit on glass plate. This is when I noticed the fly side had a valley as well. Not sure if this was from the factory or from welding overheating and warping thin area.

Briefly knocked down the mountain tops with a hand file angled 25-45 degrees away from the mating surface to get them out of the way for decking the surface flat. Hour and a half of slowly and carefully (just enough pressure to keep the plate flat and moving) sanding with the glass backed 120 grit and I've got a nicely decked cylinder mating surface. Singing the mantra "Should have gone to Gick" in my head the whole time! This was my penance.

Farmer fix to a plumbers weld. No offense to farmers or plumbers!











Fri May 13, 2022 5:03 pm

Ossessionato
VSX, Stella 177, Stella 150, VNX1T, V9A1T, V9B1T
Joined: 20 Jul 2018
Posts: 3713
Location: Staten Island, NY
 
Ossessionato
VSX, Stella 177, Stella 150, VNX1T, V9A1T, V9B1T
Joined: 20 Jul 2018
Posts: 3713
Location: Staten Island, NY
Fri May 13, 2022 5:03 pm linkquote
I need to re-stamp the case matching numbers since I sanded them off!
Sun May 15, 2022 5:03 pm

Style Maven
'74 50s x3 '78 P200 E '84 Cosa '91 PK50XL2 '58 AllState '68 Sprint '80 50special and a '66(?) Super125
Joined: 22 Nov 2010
Posts: 8518
Location: seattle/athens
 
Style Maven
'74 50s x3 '78 P200 E '84 Cosa '91 PK50XL2 '58 AllState '68 Sprint '80 50special and a '66(?) Super125
Joined: 22 Nov 2010
Posts: 8518
Location: seattle/athens
Sun May 15, 2022 5:03 pm linkquote


Looking very tasty!
Thu May 19, 2022 3:53 pm

Ossessionato
VSX, Stella 177, Stella 150, VNX1T, V9A1T, V9B1T
Joined: 20 Jul 2018
Posts: 3713
Location: Staten Island, NY
 
Ossessionato
VSX, Stella 177, Stella 150, VNX1T, V9A1T, V9B1T
Joined: 20 Jul 2018
Posts: 3713
Location: Staten Island, NY
Thu May 19, 2022 3:53 pm linkquote
What is the smallest gasket sealing surface you guys would feel comfortable with?

I've ground out the port openings to match the vmc kit and noticed after I matched the ports that one spot gets really close to the edge of the gasket sealing surface. Like 1.6mm for the cylinder and gasket to seal with the crank case.

But the ugly welding served it's purpose! One spot would have gone through big time!


Top left corner of left port gets as thin as 1.6mm. might have to take it back to welder and have him dab a spot weld on the outside of that corner.


Look at that weld take care of what would bea big hole!

Thu May 19, 2022 3:56 pm

Ossessionato
VSX, Stella 177, Stella 150, VNX1T, V9A1T, V9B1T
Joined: 20 Jul 2018
Posts: 3713
Location: Staten Island, NY
 
Ossessionato
VSX, Stella 177, Stella 150, VNX1T, V9A1T, V9B1T
Joined: 20 Jul 2018
Posts: 3713
Location: Staten Island, NY
Thu May 19, 2022 3:56 pm linkquote
Might have to get welder to do a small spot weld right where my finger is.. then re deck the gasket surface just to be safe. 1.6mm is thin.



Thu May 19, 2022 3:57 pm

Lucky
76 Sprint V, 63 GL, 62 VBB, 05 Stella, 66 Smallstate, 08 Stella (for now)
Joined: 16 Jun 2011
Posts: 5615
Location: Nashville
 
Lucky
76 Sprint V, 63 GL, 62 VBB, 05 Stella, 66 Smallstate, 08 Stella (for now)
Joined: 16 Jun 2011
Posts: 5615
Location: Nashville
Thu May 19, 2022 3:57 pm linkquote
I would not be comfortable with a 1.6mm sealing surface. I try to keep mine to a minimum of twice that (3mm), though I know they're are people who will go as small as 2mm.

You can try it and see if it passes a pressure test, I guess.
Thu May 19, 2022 4:15 pm

Ossessionato
VSX, Stella 177, Stella 150, VNX1T, V9A1T, V9B1T
Joined: 20 Jul 2018
Posts: 3713
Location: Staten Island, NY
 
Ossessionato
VSX, Stella 177, Stella 150, VNX1T, V9A1T, V9B1T
Joined: 20 Jul 2018
Posts: 3713
Location: Staten Island, NY
Thu May 19, 2022 4:15 pm linkquote
chandlerman wrote:
I would not be comfortable with a 1.6mm sealing surface. I try to keep mine to a minimum of twice that (3mm), though I know they're are people who will go as small as 2mm.

You can try it and see if it passes a pressure test, I guess.
I'd rather fix it before pressure testing as any fix after pressure test would create aluminum shrapnel that I'd have to clean.

Might say the forbidden jb weld cause it would be quicker and easier, but I know that's the easy way out, not the right way out!
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