Modern Vespa

I did do a little bit more pressure washing of the frame a couple days ago. It's now even lighter weight than it was before!

I've been going to the gym, so hopefully you were referring to my scooter!

I'm a bit on the fence about using a 6 Days seat, only because i'll have to use a single saddle seat. At 6' tall, i'll be a bit cramped if i use a legshield spare tire carrier, but sometimes form before function?

I will probably follow your lead and install one of those fancy MMW front brake master cylinders on the handlebars. https://www.scooter-center.com/en/brake-master-cylinder-set-light-switch-housing-mmw-two-in-one-vespa-vb-vba-vbb-vnb3t-vnb4t-vnb5t-vnb6t-vgla-vglb-aluminium-3331364 I'm kinda leaning towards using the Crimaz 10" disc brake kit? https://www.sip-scootershop.com/en/product/disc-brake-crimaz-front_78744200?q=crimaz It looks very nice. Here's a link New disc brake kit for Sprint/Rally/GL
I guess option 2 is to use a PK fork and a standard 20mm Grimeca hub. But it definitely is a pain in the round tail to fit everything under the older mudguards that were meant for a 8" rim.

You're on the right track. All those reasons exactly why I'm going with a 60m crank for my build. I need a new crank anyway, so might as well upgrade.

Your 57 crank is most likely salvagable, as you discovered with the emery cloth. The pitting is not bad... clean it up and slap it on the shelf for future use.

You need a speedi sleeve if it doesn't work…

https://www.skf.com/group/products/industrial-seals/power-transmission-seals/wear-sleeves/skf-speedi-sleeve

Look up that scooter thing, he built a 208 motor or a p200 with a 60mm crankshaft.


https://www.thatscootershop.com/onlineshop/vespa-p200e-engine-208cc-smartcarb-engine

I've used speedi sleeves a couple times in the past on the pinion yoke on my truck's read axle. It worked fine for that application. I've never really thought of using one on a crank, but if it works then it works!

I was digging around in my shop a few days ago and found a Brembo brake master cylinder. I was kinda thinking that it might be easier to mount that MC to the frame than it would be to convert a T5 rear brake cable to the VB1's rusted out brake sleeve tube. I mocked up the MC to the rear brake pedal, but it wasn't quite the right configuration MC that I was after. It put the hydro brake line output port right next to the reservoir port. It would be difficult to install a pressure switch in that spot.

Today I took a few hot laps around in my shop looking at bikes. I looked at a KTM 640 Adventure's rear brake MC, and it looked to be the configuration that I was looking for. I then thought, "hey, wait a minute...I think I might have a spare one of those"! Turns out I did! It even has a pressure switch still installed. I roughly mocked it up on the VB1 frame. It looks like it would be super simple to fab up a mounting bracket for it.

Yup, I am thinking about installing a full hydro rear disc brake on a VB1. We shall see if it comes to fruition or not though...

That is quite foxy!

Now you can just get a Cosa brake regulator valve and you can have coordinated two wheel hydraulic brakes. Maybe you can add some sensors etc, and have ABS too!

Maybe instead I'll hook that ABS up to my piston and cylinder so that it doesn't ever lock up on me?

I bought a SIP rear disc brake kit back in 2006. I had it installed on my PX street racer...until I got hit by a truck. The scooter has been under a tarp for years and years. Long story short, I've had a rear disc brake collecting dust for the past 14 years. I've been wanting to install it on something, and this VB1 is sure something alright! I think I have a master cylinder that will work, all I need (parts wise) to go full hydro is a new brake hose.

Yeah, all of that and lovely pieces you already have, but you wouldn't need to change your headset^^^ if you had this part ... Mostly just FYI.

https://www.scooter-center.com/en/brake-power-regulator-bosch-vespa-cosa-ebs-models-7671893





Here's the system I have on my Cosa and it works OK when all the parts are good. The Cosa also has a usual lever & cable system cleverly linked to front brakes. However many feel it's a little too clever because if you panic and use BOTH at the same time as most are taught, you lock up the front wheel. Many disable either the cable or front hydraulics to avoid this possibility.

I had some parts stuck in customs for a few weeks, but I finally got them yesterday. The most important part was a PX to Wideframe engine adapter. All I can say is another SIP Series Pro Grade AA - first-class repair...not.
I'm not really sure where SIP got their measurements for building the engine mount, but It needs an additional 3/8" of an inch clearance for the engine swingarm to fit in the bracket. I figured there would be some modifications to be made to the bracket, but I'm dumbfounded by this one.

BUT the stainless steel bracket does look pretty trick...if the scooter is laying on its side.

Well now you have the measurements so you can just fab up some for the rest of us that will fit properly !

Didn't really plan to spend hours to modify the bracket, but it wouldn't be a scooter project if nothing ever fit correctly right out of the SIP package.

There are thick spacer washers that are welded to the bracket where the engine swingarm bolt slides through. They are only welded about halfway around the circumference, so the weld wasn't too difficult to cut through with my portaband.

I also lucked out and found a thick piece of stainless flat bar (It's either 1/4" or 5/16" thick, I didn't stop to measure it) in my shop...that already had two 12mm holes drilled through it!


I forgot to take pics of the brackets once I cut everything out, but you can see the Sharpi ink in the pic of what I made.

Clamped up and ready to weld. Being that the bracket is stainless steel, there's was only a couple options to weld it. I don't have a TIG welder, so it was either go to a friend's house and use his, or break out my spool gun. My spool gun was closer, and I didn't really care how nice my welds looked underneath the scooter.

I used the old engine mounts and spacer tubes to get the correct width on the bracket. I cranked up the amps on the welder and had plenty of weld penetration. I got lucky and had very minimal heat distortion (stainless is notorious for heat distortion).


After all of this, and I'm finally back to square one with the engine mount!

I forget to mention, but the final measurement for lowing the PX swingarm mounting point was about 12mm.

I mocked up a P200 case half into the VB1 frame....well that went ok. But I then I tried to mock up an old 200 barrel on the case...and that didn't go so well. No way will just a 200 cylinder fit without hacking into the VB1 frame...let alone with a cylinder head and a cylinder shroud attached! I'm not too keen on cutting into the frame, but since it's a rust bucket then I guess I can't feel too bad about doing it? I think a 150cc smallblock could fit without hacking the frame, but who would want just a 150cc VB1?

wow cool project interested to see how the P2 nestles in great winter-time home reading. Very interested in the 60mm crank and engine build. With the dual disc set up should be able to stop quickly!

I'm pretty exited about this project. It kinda nice to have a rusty scooter project since I do have to "stick to the script" when building it. If this VB1 had less rust, I'd feel obligated to do it up right, but since it's just past that point, I get to build it how I want to!

And for the 60mm crank. It will be going in the case that's in the pics, but this 60mm engine will be swapped into my 61 Allstate. The current non-oiler 57mm P200 that's in my Allstate will be going in this VB1. Reason being that this 60mm engine has an operational autolube system, and I want my Allstate to have autolube. I have a project thread for that Allstate as well. I'm just waiting for a few parts to show up from Scooter Center.

Whodat - this is awesome.
Nice work with the stainless adapter and spool gun weld.
Looks rock solid.
That's crazy it didn't fit.
WTF?
Shame it has to be so modified to fit.
Digging the hydraulic rear.
Gonna be very steam punk cool.
I will be following this at some point with my own similarly rusted out VB1.
Good learning (and laughs) along the way on this one.

The downside to a spool gun is that it throws lots of sticky weld spatter everywhere and that it puts out LOTS of heat. But if i need some thick aluminum or stainless welded, that spool gun gets it done. And it's WAY faster than a TIG. But there's no comparison how a TIG can create aesthetic looking welds.

It only seemed crazy at first that it didn't fit...but then i realized, oh duh, of course...it's a "Grade A First-Class Repair" part.

I'm trying to use as many parts as possible that are on my shelves on this project. Obviously i'll still have to buy a few fancy tidbits though. I'm trying to balance out the rust with a few tasty accoutrements.

A little late now but looks like you brought a P125X to widebody adapter not a P200E one.
However, as you always do, its now fixed.
Unfortunate about the 200 cylinder not fitting. Hopefully the frame cut won't notice with the side panels on.

Wasn't your mistake then, wrong part in the bag maybe? For that far out of alignment, it would be tagged 'Grade B - decent repair'.

LML parts that fit and work are a grade C, this has to be 'Grade D - adequate repair' or 'Grade F - fitting required to use'

I went to a public school, so i'm well familiar with C's, D's, and F's.

A few bits from Scooter Center showed up! Following both Pheasant Plucker and CM22, i sprung for the fancy MMW hydro brake master cylinder. I am perplexed why the MC doesn't come with the two tiny set screws though.

I'm now trying to decide just which front hydro brake kit i want to use on this scooter. Either a Crimaz kit that will bolt up to my VB1 fork, or swap out to a 20mm PK fork. Either way i'll have to buy a new damper or a shock for whichever fork i decide to use. I'll also be converting over to a 10" rim as well. The PK fork will have better suspension handling, but it's ALWAYS a pain to fit an older fender on a PK fork (as well as fork stops and column lock). What i do like about the PK fork is that it's the exact same brake platform as the 20mm PX, and i have lots of spare brake bits for the 20mm forks.

I received an order from McMaster Carr today. It was a big ol box of hardware that I had ordered, but I was really only interested in one item. It's a 6mm to 8mm stainless steel adapter.

The stainless pushrod on my rear brake master cylinder threads are 8mm, while the stainless rod end (heim joint) is a 6mm.

I'm just kinda mocking things up at the moment. I found a few -3 fittings in my shop to play around with. Before I build a mount to attach the master cylinder to the frame I'll have to find the sweet spot for the angle on the foot brake pedal. I'm also trying to decide if I was to run the brake hose 90 degrees out of the MC or at 180 degrees. If I do it at 90 degrees, I'll have to drill a hole in the frame (no big deal at all) and there won't be very much of the hydro hose visible. If I run the hose at 180 degrees, I can fish it back down through the existing hole in the frame where the original brake switch was attached. If I do that, there will be more hydro hose visible, but it will make it easier for me to bleed the system.

This is cool.
My vote - drill the new hole!
Cleaner.
It's not u can't weld it up in future (u won't) and there are already 100 extra holes anyway!!

Really digging this restoration mod.
Makes me wanna get mine going.

New MMW master cylinder looks good nice. How was it getting the old off and new on?

Rear hydro brake will be coo. Clean look of the 90° hose is better, and the hose tucked inside tunnel will be safer too. One more hole on this aint hurtin nuthin

When i got the scooter the switch housing had already been removed. There's a good chance that the original one was destroyed since the scooter came with a shiny replacement switch housing. The gear and throttle tubes were a little bit of a different story. The throttle tube wasn't too difficult to remove. It took about 20 minutes to remove. The gear tube was another story. LOTS of heat and lube was what it took. That was probably closer to an hour to remove...and i have a pretty well set up shop, so that's saying something. Of course once i removed the tubes it didn't mean that they would spin easily in the headset. My secret pro tip for getting old throttle tubes to spin freely in old headsets is to smear valve lapping compound on the tubes. Then you just have to spin the tubes a whole bunch while they're inside the headset. The lapping compound will sand down the rust and corrosion. It took me another hour of doing that until both tubes spun freely.

So rather than working on the VB1 this evening, I worked ON the VB1 this evening. It seemed to made a decent work bench while I squirreled out on some Lammy bling.

That is some mighty good looking bling.
Question - aren't you a little tempted to put some form of sub frame in with that tunnel so nicely opened and exposed?

Hell - few threaded holes in the subframe you build - and you can then have a removable center tunnel cover on the bottom - to make cabling a breeze.
🙂

(that is where I am going with mine I think...).

Bling indeed! You gotsta know a brothas going to notice the gold! It wasn't the most opportune time for me to purchase Casa Performance bits, but i've been waiting for a few years for some of the anodized gold bits to come back into stock. So when it did, i jumped...with both feet apparently (the anodized gold Casa Cooler didn't make it in the pic). Luckily the USD to GBP isn't too bad right now.

I'm VERY tempted to build some sort of subframe in the tunnel. I've been thinking about that since day 1. One of my concerns is if i weld it in, what do i weld it to, rust? Though i'm confident i can find enough solid metal to weld to in there. I'd prefer to not have a whole bunch of skip weld burn though marks all over the frame if i decided to weld a subframe inside the tunnel. Another thing is how far to bring the subframe to the front of the scooter? A few inches past the brake pedal? Go for broke and go all the way up to the bottom fork bearing race? Round tube, square tube? One of my thoughts is once the dry build is done, is to take the frame in to a sandblaster and have it blasted ONLY inside the tunnel and under the fuel tank. Once that's done, then i'd pour a bunch of Ospho to help keep as much of the rust as possible at bay.

Do you have thoughts on a subframe design for yours yet?

Hmmm - would have to have a look at mine.
Top of head:
Would be sorely tempted to try and run from lower steering bearing to engine mount.

- Square tube - with a sort of ladder design of cross members connecting.
- Tubing would transition to flat steel tabs back at the engine mount - so the loads transition from engine to subframe
- Tubing would sit flush with tunnel - so it would be at a tilt
- To get perfect fit - I might opt to weld cross members in AFTER the subframe long members were attached.
- Possibly transition the subframe down to single central rectangular tube at turn from floor to leg. Would try and avoid just letting the subframe end abruptly at that turn as it would send all the load to a known weak spot.

Not sure how I will connect it to the existing chassis.
Might tig some landing pads in - made out of something about 1/8 - 3/16" thick - then let the sub frame weld on to those. That way I could sew them in with 4 sides of weld.

If I can ever get my current rig working - your thread has me hot to re-look/get started on mine. It's equal parts rust and Swiss cheese.
Part of me wants to just weldon a plate and use body filler on top.
The other part of me wants to replace whole leg shield...

Thank you for those ideas. I think you just described a full SCCA approved fabricated tube frame. The bad part is that your ideas are pretty much what I would recommend anyone else to do to their rusty scooter. I'm not sure what route I'll go, or how far I will take it. I guess we'll alll have to see just how much of a hypocrite I am!

Merry Christmas all!

I took my SIP disc brake kit to my machinist so that he could true everything up a few weeks ago. I promptly received an email from him letting me know just how out of true it was....which explains why it's been on my shelf for that past 15+ years. Fast forward to Christmas Eve, and he contacts me that he's finished and to come pick it up!

Initially I brought a whole bunch of hubs over to to him so that he could mill the pick of the litter. He ended up using a 30mm Stella drum to mill down.

The next step is to hook up a temporary brake line to the master cylinder and the caliper, and then bleed the system. The reason being is that I'm not sure exactly where to position the foot brake pedal bracket and m/c at until I get the complete hydro system bleed so I can see just how far the brake pedal will be depressed.

oooh. Fancy. Ha. Well - I'm not really sure myself how far I will go and what's "right".
Suppose the mini version is square tube that tapers down (cut at an angle then just one sided) as it gets close to the turn to go up. This would still tie in to the engine mounts and cary the load nicely into the tunnel - while giving a place to have a bolt on plate underneath.
Suppose even that would have a few ladder rungs. 🙂

Watching all with interest.

It was another snow day today in NW Oregon. What better thing to do than stand around in a large uninsulated pole barn working on a scooter when it's below freezing outside.


I've been working on fabbing up a mount for the rear master cylinder. Most of it involves standing around and scratching my head. My only requirement for my mount is that it will be made out of stainless...which I do have some random scrap bits of stainless left over from a handrails/guardrails job that I did.

I cut the main angled portion of the bracket out of a piece of 3/16" 3"x3" square tube. I then put that 90 degree angle piece in a shop press to open it up a bit to match the angle on the VB1's spine and legshield. I drilled four 8mm holes through it that will attach it to the frame. There's going to be an 1/8" thick stainless backing plate that will be inside the legshield spine. There's LOTS of structure where I drilled the two holes through the legshield's pinch welds, so I don't foresee ever needing a backing plate for those two 8mm screws.

For the master cylinder, I used a piece of 1/8" flat bar. I think it will be thick enough so that it doesn't flex?...if not, then I can throw in a triangle gusset on the backside of it. That 1/8" flat bar isn't really tall enough that I foresee it flexing though.

I have mocked up the foot pedal height so that it's pretty darn low. The top of the pedal is about 1.5" above the floorboard. It feels like a comfortable height to me, and there won't be very much pedal travel either. But if anyone has a reason why I should raise it up higher, nothing's welded yet, so there's still time to voice your opinion.