Modern Vespa

Looking good!

I'd want to give myself more play in the brake pedal. Only reason is for wear, and bleeding issues. Depending on the system, and how much air purge from the system, depends on how much play you need

On most my bikes I've had a little play in the brakes.

As you know, it comes down to personal preference and brake system (caliper, 1cylinder, reservoir and line)

I'm anxious to see the result, and good man for braving the crazy weather we're having!

I also like all of my motobikes (ok, plated dirtbikes) to have about a 1/2"-ish of play. It would be a bit of a creative challenge to set up something like that on this semi Jury-rigged system. I would need to incorporate a pedal return spring as well as a pedal return stop. All doable things, but i'm hoping to keep this more simple than that...we shall see. Come to think about it, the P/PX foot brake pedal is designed with a pedal stop and a return spring. And i've only used this rear brake kit on my old PX street racer for a few hundred miles. I do remember it having a good brake feel, but that was with a P foot pedal. The current way i have this set up on my VB1 pedal, there will very little play. It will be however much the master cylinder can be depressed until the brake fluid gets pressurized.

*and i just though of a cool anti-theft device. Plumb in a hydro line-lock somewhere mid-stream to the rear brakes?

Lookin good.
Couple thoughts.
From what I can tell - the push rod length will determine the height of the pedal.
If that's true, you could fab a little extension.
Basically it would be a rod that has two ends on it.
One threaded - to allow some pedal height adjustment
One floating - with a small spring that keeps it in light tension - but compresses when you press the pedal.
I'd want some kind of retainer on that floating end - cause, its your brakes - and having it slip off would be - well - kinda bad.
But once the push rod compressed - it would be solid metal on. metal pushing the brake.
Would have to think about how to do all that...
But it would all be in the rod.
Just a thought.

Oh! and really nice job on that bracket. Aces.

A big thank you both Scott and CM22 for pretty much stating the obvious...which I obviously didn't even think about. I guess I was too enthralled with the act of making a master cylinder linkage assembly as simple as possible, that I completely spaced making both a pedal stop and a pedal return (spring). I was at the gym this morning for about 3 hours, and the whole time I was thinking about that rear m/c. Ok, ok, there was at one point where I was distracted for a second (or two), but I adverted my eyes and focused back to Vespas.

I got home and pulled the frame out of the uninsulated shop to outside in the brisk air. Dunno if it was any warmer outside, but at least I did have better lighting.

I welded the 1/8" thick m/c mount to the 3/16" thick angle bracket. My welder's spool gun puts out a lot of heat, and stainless is notorious for massive heat distortion (when compared to mild steel), so after my welds cooled the 3/16" angle bracket was distorted...in a good way. I Had between a 1/16" and 1/8" equal gap between the legshield and the bracket.
Which is enough room for airflow behind it (remember I'm up in the rainy part of Oregon, and trapped water between body panels is a bad thing).

I depressed the brake pedal a few times to look for any sort of flex in either my bracket or the scooter frame....and absolutely zero flex in either of them. Ironically it turns out I don't need to use all four of those M8 cap screws to mount the bracket to the frame. Just two of the bolts do the job beautifully.

The pushrod and heim joint have adjustable threads (and a jam nut) so I can change the height of the pedal fairly easily. I then put my brain at work for a pedal return. I took a look at my KTM dirtbikes and I liberated (sorry KTM) a brake pedal return spring off of it. I figure if it's durable enough for a dirtbike, then surely it will be durable enough for a scooter. So why stop there with a KTM return spring? I also had a KTM "brake snake" kit on my shelf, so I grabbed the little predrilled bracket out of the kit. One of the holes happens to be 6mm and the other hole is whatever size and works perfectly to hook that return spring into it. From there I just kinda stared at it for about 30 minutes. I was just about to drill a hole 90 degrees, out the side of the frame in order to hook the spring over it...then decided to mock up something else. Since the old rear brake guide tube was completely rusted out inside the frame tunnel, why not utilize the existing hole in the tunnel for an adjustable brake pedal return spring mounting point? I used a random M6x80mm cap screw as the main adjuster. I drilled a hole through the side of the cap so that I could hook the spring through it. Slip that 80mm long screw through the hole (that the rear brake cable originally when through), slip on an aluminum spacer and thread on an adjuster nut, and Bob's your uncle. I'll probably go with this option? The only issue I foresee is if or when I decide to add some structure to the inside of the tunnel area. That 80mm long bolt might get in the way of things. Oh, and that 80mm long cap screw will get replaced with a better looking partially threaded stainless steel one at some point.

Trick!

BTW, that floorboard looks like swiss cheese.

I've come up with two different ideas for a pedal stop. First one (which would be super quick and easy) is to just use a long enough cross pin through the rear brake pedal that it contacts against the aluminum pedal, and keeps it from going any further. The down side to that is that it won't be adjustable (but once I have everything where I want it, I don't foresee ever needing to adjust it again). I would simply extend the slot in the aluminum pedal to however far I want it to stop at. If you look at the pictures, it should make sense. That little screwdriver that's in the hole is currently acting as a pedal stop.


My option two idea is also off of one of my dirtbikes. It utilizes an aluminum spacer that has a hole that's drilled offset through it. So when you loosen the little 6mm flat head screw, you can rotate that aluminum spacer so that it raises or lowers the pedal height. I could mount that to the side of the frame tunnel so that it can make contact with the foot pedal (look for picture that had the orange mark up circle). I don't know if I'll go that route or not though.

I'd say watch your step, but "mind the gaps" might be more accurate with this holy frame.

Looking really good!
Seams like just slowing the brake pedal would do the job - you could always start conservative.
If you cut too much off - you can just tack a little nub on the pin so that it takes up the extra space I would think. Quick/simple - but elegant. Like it.

BTW - trick way to upgrade pole barn to heated floors.
Wait - its not as crazy as it sounds.
Layer of hard foam board put down on existing slab.
Then either new slab on top - or wood grooved for the pex floor heat lines.
Of course - the lack of air seal or insulation anywhere else in the building is a challenge.
But just imagine that thermal break + warmth radiating under you.
Don't even have to mess with existing slab.
🙂

My thought was some sort of tack welded nub as well. I'm hoping to keep that whole rear master cylinder area from becoming too visually distracting with intricacies, so simpler is better for me.

I have installed a Pex radiant heated floor under a slab years ago. It was fairly simple to do with new construction, but a different ball game on an existing pour. My parents built this pole barn back in 1979. It's super awesome for working in, but to add a 40'x90' heated floor would cost about 10-15 REALLY nice scooters.

It's hard for me to get my head around all the nice brake work along with all the rust rot that people are pointing at. Might be a good time to replace the floor panel. I haven't taken all the time to read all of this so maybe you've already mentioned something about.

I have wrestled with the thoughts of replacing the floor multiple times. It's well within my ability to do it. The thing is if i replace the floor, i'd also replace the legshield...along with a few other panels too. It would end up turning into a complete full blown rebuild and paint (and $$$$). At that point i'd feel bad about drilling any additional holes in the frame for a master cylinder bracket. I'd also feel bad to cut the frame to install a 200 engine as well. I would feel bound and restricted to rebuild the scooter on how it came from the factory, not how i want to build it. If people are pointing at the swiss cheese floor and scratching their heads, then hopefully that means that they'll have less time to point at me and scratch their heads!

I do appreciate your input though nomadinsiam!

I ended up going the simple route for a pedal stop. I drilled the hole on the pedal pivot a little bit larger and tapped it with a M5. When a M5 screw is threaded into the hole, it works as a perfect pedal stop. It's not quickly adjustable (it would take some grinding of the aluminum pedal slot to do it), but I don't think I'll need to adjust it once I get it where I want it...and I think I like it where it's currently at. We shall see once the whole scooter is up and running so that I can do some brake check tests.

I also got super lucky and found a random M6x 75mm stainless cap screw in my shop! It looks much better than the fully threaded black oxide cap screw that were in my previous pics.

I still need to drill a hole in the frame so that the hydro brake line can pass through it. I also tested the pressure switch with a multi-meter, and it appears to not be functioning. Ideally I'd like to use an inline pressure switch in both the front and rear hydro lines so that I could hide the wiring inside the frame.

Major milestone today with the project. I procured a 1958 vintage Oregon license plate!!! And yes, this particular plate number can be reregistered onto my VB1. I'm super super stoked on this find. All my vintage scooters have the correct year of vintage Oregon plates registered to them (74, 66, 61, and now a 58). It ain't cheap, but for me a period correct license place is the true pièce de résistance.

The guy who sold me the plate is a license plate collector, and he's part of a license plate collector club (apparently it's a thing). He said that this plate has been in only three different hands...the original owner, who had it on his bike for about 3 weeks, the guy who I bought the plate from, and my hands. The seller was friends with the original owner, and the original owner passed away some years ago. This guy inherited the plate. He said that his collector group only know of eight different 1958 Oregon motorcycle license plates that are out there roaming around in the world (that are not currently attached to any other 1958 motorcycle that are currently registered in Oregon). He also said (which is actually kind of a bummer for me) that this plate he sold me is probably one of the finest 1958 Oregon moto plates in existence! That's quite a responsibility for me. I was hoping to find a beater plate to go on this rusty scooter.

This guy was very hesitant to sell me the plate in the first place, but when I told him that I'm going to get it registered to my 1958 "moto", he was very exited. He then asked me what "moto" I was going attach it to. A bit hesitantly is said a 1958 Vespa moto scooter. His eyes got even bigger! He then said that he used to ride around in the early 60's on a 1957 Sears Vespa "knock off" 3 speed. I said, "you meet an Allstate?" Then his eyes just about popped out of his head!! He told me no less than four times in two minutes that I HAVE to ride my 1958 VB1 back over to his house this summer so that he can see both the scooter and the plate.

Check out the all original paint!


There are more DMV hoops that I need to jump through in both Vermont and Oregon, but I should be all good to go.

Gorgeous

Wow, that plate is pristine! Great find!

I'm still looking for my 62 Allstate....

And I've quietly been keeping my eyes open for a 62 plate for you as well. I made a few emails to some semi-local places, but no license plate restoration business has a 62 in stock.

that's rad!

I have a maine plate for my super mule that shall be deployed for maximum chicanery.

Very Cool!

Right on - I appreciate it - thank you!

Super Score, and even better story. Way better than an ebay score. congrats.

Just a little show and tell here...

I bought 185mm short SIP shock to fit on a shortened 16mm P fork. I have no idea if it will work out on this project , but it's onward and upward...until I crash and burn that is.

The chromy Grimeca 5 star and the SIP caliper have been laying around my place for well over 10 years. I'd prefer to not have chrome on this scooter, but it might just offset all the rust perfectly?

I'm waiting for a few more SIP parts to show up before I can go any further.

I'm liking the juxtaposition of chrome and new shine next to the rusty spots.
Feels right.

my pants just got a little tighter.

love that look.

Chrome WILL get ya home! looks badass

That looks cool AF!

A little bit of an update on the engine build (60mm crank 125*/-5*) in a stock 200 cylinder)...

I first mocked up the the top end up using a 1.5mm base gasket and a stock cylinder head. I did some measuring of the ports, and I came up with-
-1.5mm base gasket
-exhaust timing 170 degrees
-transfer timing 127 degrees
-exhaust port width 61% (41mm)
-squish (with USA head) 3.7mm

I ended up taking my engine over to my buddy's shop to get some insight on how far to go with the porting. He started to do some quick math in his head, then proceeded to tell me everything to do. I interrupted him after about a minute of him taking, and asked him to do the work for me. His time is money, so I figured I'd throw him some work.

I got the engine back two days later, and here are the results-
-1 mm base gasket
-180 exhaust timing
-126 transfer timing
-Exhaust port width 65% (43mm)
-squish (10.5:1 MMW head) 1.5mm
-blow down 27 degrees
-compression test showed a peak of 155 psi

My buddy wanted to do more porting to both the piston and cylinder, but he knew that I wanted something VERY conservative.

I also did some engine swapping around late last night. This stroked (208) engine is actually going to be going in my Allstate ( Project 61 Allstate 200 (now 208) with 2020 updates (Page 3) ). Reason being is that the current P200 engine that was in the Allstate was a non-oiler and I wanted to have an autolube engine. This 208 engine has autolube, so in it goes!


*NOTE that my compression in the picture shows around a 147ish psi. Both of my dogs were trying to attack the scooter while I was kicking it over today, so I was a bit distracted to REALLY put my foot into it. I pulled a few different readings of 155psi last night...which is higher than I feel comfortable with on a road going engine. I spoke to my machinist about how much more my compression might go up once the rings finally seat, and he thinks maybe only a couple more psi. I think all that compression will cause more heat than I want. Rather than installing a head gasket, I'm thinking about opening the cylinder head combustion bowl slightly to lower the compression...preferably down closer to maybe 145 psi?

Wow - that Allstate looks sweet!
Timings are good tour sport if you ask me.
About where mine are.
No shortage of torque from the small amount of riding I managed...
Are you gonna run a box or pipe?

Just a thought on the compression (and you can probably school me on this - but putting my glass jaw out there in an attempt to make sure alls well with your project).
Given the 3.5mm squish - I think you probably have a fairly low compression RATIO.
Increasing the volume inside the head would lower that ratio further.
But those are different than the compression you are seeing - which will also go down with time.

Also - those gauges are notoriously inaccurate unless they are the really nice ones - so I would consider running it and seeing how you like it?
Im not sure lower compression will affect temp.
Lower compression ratio might.

Nice! I'm excited to hear how it runs!

And i'm hoping to make the Allstate a little sweeter!

I'm trying to decide what exhaust to use. I currently have both a Sito+ and a stainless JL Right pipe. The Sito will run cooler than the JL, but the JL is cooler looking! I'm about 95% sure i'll install a VAPE variable ignition on this scooter. This engine has just enough tuning down to it that i would feel more comfortable with having it (the stock 200 engine that's going in the rusty VB1 will just have a stock ignition).

My current squish is 1.5mm with the MMW zero squish head that i installed (it was around 3.5ish mm with the stock low compression "USA" head). The MMW head has a 10.5:1 compression ratio. The cylinder comp test showed 155psi (at about 750' elevation).

As for my compression tester?...well i bought it about 25 years ago, so hopefully quality was better back then. But you do have a point, my compression test could be off. But over the years it gives a consistent psi reading of all my vehicles. Like when my poorly running Civic felt like it was running on 3 cylinders?...yup, the compression tester read 20 psi. I also pulled some readings of of two different (low hour) KTM 2T dirtbikes (250 and 300). Both tests showed that the KTM psi's were in correct spec. But i am open to recommendations for a more expensive brand of comp tester!

I'd prefer to not have really high psi compression. I don't want to have to always fill my fuel tank with high octane fuel. Plus having a higher psi will put more stress on my crank (and all the crank bearings).

man, I don't know if there's a clear cut or easy answer here.

I'd probably run it and see how it all shakes out before altering the chamber.

either way, we all know the obvious answer is that you have to run the JL righty...

I'd run it with conservative stock timing settings. My P225 has compression higher than that. I do use premium fuel at least 91 octane.

As I understand it - the compression ratio is a comparison of the cylinder volume to the combustion chamber.
Combustion chamber is there volume at ignition of the spark - so basically TDC or close there to.

So the drop in head wouldn't change your compression - but it would increase your compression ratio - cause it takes away a few mm of combustion chamber.

Measuring compression per say doesn't tell you if it will run hot or cold so much - I don't think - though they may be related. The ratio of that cylinder of space you just compressed - to the volume in the head is the ratio.

Simple test.
Put the 3+mm squish head back on.
Should be the same compression as drop in.
Lower ratio than the drop in tho.
Bout the same as taking your drop in and machining it (though you get the advantage of the tighter squish).
You can ride it both ways to see if there is really any heat difference before you start machining.
Ha! consider the source for THAT advice.

I'm kinda combining build threads here with swapping around the engines with my Allstate and VB1 here.

I mocked up my JL Right, and it would take a bunch of work to get it to fit under the Allstate. Part of the pipe makes hard contact with the centerstand. I would also have to remodify the end can angle. I used to have this pipe on my stock P200 track bike (no centerstand). After a few dozen crashes, I ended up reangling the silencer so that it was more crash resistance. I also had to shorten the silencer a few inches because of another crash. I dunno if it's going to be worth it to try to make it fit a VBB frame.

quick little cut-out in the cowl and then just heat and beat the pipe into compliance for the centerstand.

two beers, max.

It was gnawing at me about the head PSI compression, so I reinstalled the stock USA 200 head back on and performed another test...

Stock USA head- 130psi with about a 3+mm squish.
MMW 0 squish head- 150+psi with a 1.5mm squish.


I did read somewhere on the World Wide Web that a stock 200 head that has been milled down to a zero squish will have more compression (psi) than the MMW zero squish head. Which makes sense because the MMW head looks to have a larger combustion bowl. But I didn't do any actual volume measurements though.

Welp - guess we both learned something then.
I would have expected the stock head to have the same compression - but a higher compression ratio.
Guess that's wrong.
Thanks for the R&D.
So - seems to me like you have your solution.
You could run the stock head and the drop in head - and see if one runs hotter/better/worse etc.
Plug and play.
Enjoying the thread.
-CM

For some reason I forgot about this offset centertand bracket. Ironically enough, I recommend a friend to use it on his project about a month ago (and he bought it), then I promptly forgot that it existed. I guess I have too many irons in the fire at the moment(s)? https://www.sip-scootershop.com/en/product/main-stand-offset-mrp_22159634?q=MRP

I don't know how well heating and bending stainless steel would be. I think it would or could stress it too much and cause possible cracks in the future. I might have to try that MRP centerstand bracket.

I don't think I could cut into a nice cowl to fit that pipe! Here's a pic of the back end of my old P200 track bike. You can see the cowl notch. I had to retire that frame because it was sooo beat up. That frame led a VERY hard life. It now resides on the top shelf in my barn.

I need a barn

It's ironic that most of the "barn finds" i do find, are in my own barn. I just forget what all crap i have stuffed in a 40'x90' space.