Modern Vespa

Three words A-MAZ-ING!! Ok, three syllables, but you get my point.

I don't know about leaving the welds, or grinding them down. I'd probably grind them down, just to show the smooth aspect, that is still all scarred and tough ..

So does anyone here know if the fancy Scooter & Service Shock upper absorber plate is still in production? Both SIP and Scooter Center don't have it in stock. I'm hoping to "lower" the angle on my fork's trailing link a little bit. https://www.sip-scootershop.com/en/product/shock-absorber-base-plate-scooter-service-front-top_17488800

Also, does anyone has experience with the MMW fork stem adapter? From what i can gather, it looks like it can be used on pretty much every single Vespa fork out there (except for the T5 style). I'm wanting to extend the upper portion of my 16mm P fork about 1/2"~3/4", and the MMW adapter would sure make it easier.
https://www.sip-scootershop.com/en/product/adapter-steering-column-zip-quartz-et2-steering-column-in-vespa-frame-top_13399331

AF Parts makes this one:

https://www.kytronik.com/collections/afparts/products/keuk-plate

Thanks for looking out Patrick, but that one is for a PK fork. The PK plates have a different distance between the two fork mounting holes from the P/PX fork (i found that out a few years ago). That PK KEUK plate (along with i think 100% of other aftermarket PK plates) are manufactured with an offset in order to line up the stroke of the shock when installing a disc brake kit. With the setup that i have, i can't use and offset plate...even if it were for a PX fork.

After a little research, it looks like the ET2 and ET4 use the exact same plate as the PK.
The LX and GTS models use a different plate than the earlier TnG vespas. I have no idea just how different they are though...can they be made to fit a PK or a PX?..i dunno. It does look like they have a lot more of an offset than a stock PK fork plate though.

LX/GTS plate- https://www.sip-scootershop.com/en/product/shock-absorber-base-plate-sip-sip-zelioni-racingbros-shock-absorber-front_MV273693

This ol scuttle bucket is coming along great. Superb fab work as usual. I vote for the raw weld's un-grindededededed

For a fork spacer - double stack an extra bearing race on the lower part, that may create enough clearance between the mudguard / legshield. Then just address extending the top.

Hopefully your vote was not sway by intimidation.

I tried that already, and i definitely need more space than the ol' double stacked bearing race on the fork part method...lots more.

of course you tried that already, you know what you're doin

It's one of those semi-common tricks that i did completely forget about for a good 6 hours though.

HAPPY THANKSGIVING EVERYONE!

I just did a full stop on the fork last night. I had an epiphany and decided to back way up in order get a run at it again. Here's the story...

My buddy has a small lathe, and i asked him if he could make some spacers for my vespa fork. He said "sure. Are you planning on welding any of the spacers to the frame?" Right then and there i got to thinking about somehow welding spacers to the frame (instead of making them sleeve into the fork). So what if i simply welded in a second lower bearing race retainer right over the top of the original one? Then i thought that it would be nice to make the whole steering area in the frame stronger. The VB1 doesn't have a support tube (steering column?) between the upper and lower steering bearing race retainers...so, my thought was to add one in!

I cut out the column of that blue accordioned P frame that i have.










This is what the lower bearing retainer looks like. As you can see there's no column between the upper and lower bearings.

I had to nip off the existing two little fork stops that are (we're) located on the bearing retainer.

I also had to make the hole larger for the column to slip through at the top of the frame. I had to first make a template and tack weld it to the frame. By doing that it would keep the 1.5" hole saw exactly where i wanted it.

I also had to knock out the spot welds of the old metal cable guide. I used a very long angled cold chisel. That guide is in the way of the steering column. With it removed, then i have all the room that i need.








The happy face means that it's a perfectly tight fit!

This is what it looks like from the bottom with the steering column mocked up. It looks like my modifications will lower the fork about 5/8"~3/4" more than where i originally had it...which will create the perfect amount of space for clearance between the mudguard and the legshield. The bummer about it is that i'll have a HUGE gap between the bottom of the horncast and the top of the mudguard.




You can see the fork stop in action in this pic

So it is kinda of a bummer that i need to use a different 16mm P fork. Reason being is that the current P fork that i was planning to use has the fork stops sanded completely off, so it doesn't work with my now current grand plan. But luckily i procured yet another 16mm P fork from my shelves of spare parts. I will have to cut the fresh welds from the 20mm PX lower lug off of the first 16mm fork and then reweld it back onto this second 16mm fork.

All of this additional work WILL solve multiple things that i need to do...
-it will provide me with a VERY simple solution to have fork stops.
-it will create a stronger than stock steering column.
-i can use easier to find P/PX fork bearings.
-i will have space between the back of the mudguard and the legshield.
-i can get the fork's trailing link at the exact angle that i want it this time.

The down sides...
-there will be a large gap between the top of the mudguard and the horncast.
-i won't be able to use a fork column lock without a LARGE amount of cutting and welding. And if i do, it will have to be a P fork lock...maybe a PX lock if i get REALLY creative.

I'll still need to extend the steering column about 3/4". I'll also need to extend the P fork about 3/4" as well. My plan for that is to cut an upper portion of yet another different 16mm P fork (fork #3, this one is bent though) and simply weld it to the top of fork #2.


you can see that one of the 16mm P forks don't have a fork stop

You don't mess around.

No welding today, but i did do some choppin and loppin.

EDIT: i did do some more welding today.

I grabbed my last (straight) 16mm fork off the shelf. I compared the length of the first 16/20mm fork that i built to this 16mm fork. Fork 2 will be about 5/8~3/4" longer than fork 1. I cut the 20mm lug off the bottom of fork 1. I also cut down fork 2 to where i want it. I drilled the end of 16mm fork 1 with a 7/8" step bit. The reason for drilling it, is that the 16mm fork is a smaller diameter than the 20mm lower fork lug that i'll be welding into place.


fork 2 on the left, fork 1 on the right. Notice that i ground my V into the end of the tube already.

20mm PX fork lug

enlarging the hole in the 16mm fork to 7/8"

This is pretty close to what the angle will be on fork 2's trailing link. The angle finder is at what the 1st fork's trailing link was set at. Fork 2 is about 5/8"~3/4" longer in the down tube section, but my overall front suspension ride height


Last edited by whodatschrome on Sat, 26 Nov 2022 02:52:40 +0000; edited 2 times

I guess there was a smidge bit of welding today. Turned out i needed to make the opening much larger in the top of the mudguard so that it will slip over the top of lower steering bearing's dust shield. So i welded up two obsolete holes in the top of the fender.

I then used a brand new T5 fender as a template to cut out the hole in the VB1 fender.






I cut down a P series fender support tab to the height that i need.



what it looks like with the tab welded on the fork. Whenever i weld on a fork i break out the 220v welder. Even for non structural welds, a 220v will lay down nicer looking beads than a 110v on a thicker steel.

I also got motivated to fab up an upper fender reinforcement plate. The original plate is just too small to fit a P series fork. I had a scrap piece of stainless steel exhaust tubing that was off of a Cummins pick'em up truck.


I made a template out of blue tape on the fender.

I then transferred the blue tape template to the scrap piece of stainless.

What the template looks like after i cut it out

the original plate next to the one i made.

a pretty decent fit. It did take some doing to shape the piece to the contour of the fender.

I made quite a bit of progress on the fork today. I first went over to my friend's house and he made a steering column tube extension for me. He was also the one who can up with the idea of simply extending the top of the fork tube. He used a piece of 1.5" schedule 40 pipe.

After getting home i got banging away in the shop. I used a long piece of allthread to "clamp" the extension onto the column tube.















Last edited by whodatschrome on Fri, 02 Dec 2022 07:08:03 +0000; edited 1 time

I didn't like how the at the top of the frame that there are two pieces of sheetmetal overlapping, but they aren't joined together. There was a little bit of flex between the two so i decided to join them together...with the welder.




Once welded i had to go back and enlarge the hole enough to be able to fit the column tube back through the hole.

It was a dueling welder day today


Last edited by whodatschrome on Fri, 02 Dec 2022 07:10:18 +0000; edited 1 time

With the new column tube installed into the frame, it was time to start welding.


Here's what it looks like with the column tube protruding from the top of the frame. Normally a column tube is flush with the top of the frame, but i needed a bit sticking up so that i have something to weld to.

pic of the lower bearing race installed

i sanded down the outside diameter of another sacrificial bearing race because i couldn't reach under it with the tip of my gun. The other reason is so that i don't get weld spatter on my good bearing race.

All welded up and the sacrificial race removed.

some of the welds sanded down and a good bearing race reinstalled.

and a pic of the nether regions...

I mocked up the headset with the upper portion of the fork. Turned out that there was just too much of a gap between the top of the frame and the bottom of the headset...which meant that i needed to shorten the top of the fork 3/8"...which meant that i first needed to fill the original slot in the fork where the headset's pinch bolt passes through.


I slipped a socket down the tube so that my welds wouldn't blow through the backside.

I remove 3/8" from the top of the fork after i sanded my filler welds smooth.


Last edited by whodatschrome on Fri, 02 Dec 2022 07:13:24 +0000; edited 1 time

I used two different 16mm P forks to get the extra 1" extension that i was after. One good fork and one bent fork. And i have absolutely zero issues with cannibalizing bits off of a bent fork. Lucky for me that the upper stem was still straight!

*full disclosure: I did not sleeve the fork with any sort of plugs. I have a 220v welder that can easily penetrate thick steel. I have no doubt that the upper stem will be stronger than any other portion of the frame. So in the event of a totally awesome jump (over 10' high) or a hitting a brick wall at 35mph, i have zero concern of my weld.


I used a carbide scribe to make reference lines in both forks. The reason being is that my plan is to weld in a column lock that is meant for a P series.

Measurements marked on both of the fork stems.

I temporarily pushed in a sleeve for mocking up the fork before i started to make my welds.



I created a V notch for the weld

The is the bent 16mm fork that donated its steering stem.


Last edited by whodatschrome on Fri, 02 Dec 2022 06:09:57 +0000; edited 1 time

I made a jig in order to help keep everything straight and lined up while i was welding. I made four spot welds around the fork, then once cooled i went back and welded around the perimeter of it. The fork ended up warping about a 1/16" off over a 12" span, so i applied another hot bead of weld to draw is back into perfect specs...not that i'll notice it one bit while riding though.

Even though i measured about 10~15 times over the course of 3 days before i made any cuts, i still think luck played about 51% of the role in not screwing anything up. I'm a carpenter by trade, and i love doing finish work, so i'm well versed with measuring 4 times and still cutting a piece of crown molding too short!...but not today!

My plan for tomorrow is to finish up the fork. I just need to weld in the trailing arm's fork lug into the steering column...easy right?..


impromptu jig



all welded up. The red ink lines are so that i could tell how long to make equidistant welds on four sides of the fork (in order to minimize heat distortion).

With the welds sanded down

Decent gaps and spacing around the headset. And best of all, i now have fork stops!

I got the lower link's lug welded into the bottom of the fork this afternoon. I did rotate the lug in the fork just a smidge so that the front and rear wheel would line up. But now the shock stem doesn't line up with the upper plate. I grabbed an aftermarket offset PK plate off of my shelf and it happens to be the perfect offset, but since it's for a PK the bolt pattern spacing is different from a P/PX.

I need to fashion up an offset shock plate now (nobody makes one for a P, only PK). I have about 3-4 ideas on how to fab one, but i just need to pick an idea and go with it.


i used the 220v metal melter on the lug

i drilled a drain hole towards the bottom of the fork. I can't drill any lower because the lug is pressed up inside the fork about 5/8".

Notice that the shock plate doesn't line up with the fork anymore.

Top- PK plate
Middle- P/PX plate
Bottom- offset PK plate

It took me a while this morning to decide how i wanted to fashion up an upper shock plate. I had about 4 different ideas, but i ended up deciding to start from scratch. I had a piece of 5/16" thick stainless flat bar that was the right width. I knew going into it that stainless is a pain in the butt to drill and cut, but since i already had a few different stainless brackets that are on the frame, then stainless it will be...ugh

A 5/16" thick plate is just too thick to fit over the top of the shock stem and still have the two rubber bushings work as intended. Which meant i had to counterbore the stainless plate. I don't have any fancy magical machines to counterbore metal, so i used bi-metal holesaw to drill down into the plate about 1/8". I then ground and sanded all the metal that was inside that circle with normal grinding tools.

I grabbed a standard stamped steel P upper shock plate off my shelf and drilled the spot welds out of the rubber bushing cup. I tack welded it onto my stainless shock plate.

Badass brother - That's awesome!!

Beautiful work. It all looks like it belongs there.

I then sanded in a notch for the headset's pinch bolt with a round-over flapper disc. I knew before i started on cutting and turning the fork that it was going to be a close fit for the shock's cool spring and the fender's bulge. Luckily my bulge is big enough that there's still clearance between the spring and the fender!

I also have a perfect gap between the back of the mudguard and the legshield! The only downside is that there's a large gap between the bottom of the horncast and the top of the mudguard. I don't think i'm going to worry about it whatsoever though. There's so much custom stuff going on in the front end that it won't be too noticeable...i hope.

If it bothers you, you could always add some material to the bottom of the horncast. I think it looks fine. It also won't be as visible looking at it from a normal angle.

I was having that same idea. Kinda like making a longer skirt around that area. Maybe i'll make an extension out of masking tape to see how it looks visually?

I received a few parts from SIP yesterday...which meant that i got play out in the shop all weekend!

I ordered a replacement P series weld on housing block that houses the steering fork lock cylinder (or whatever you call it). Of course being that it's a "premium A++" repair part, it took a while to modify (fix?) it so that it could be usable. The housing was machined completely incorrectly, so i had to grind and sand down the block. I also had to remove the little flat washer (it retains the lock cylinder return spring). It was tack welded on, so it wasn't difficult to remove.

I sectioned out a random sized square hole in the VB1 so that i could gain access with the welding gun. Turns out i got lucky with my random sized cut. Reason why is that i also had a leftover square section of P200 frame that fits perfectly in the VB1's hole!




you can see the original cylinder hole in this picture. I had to awkwardly weld a patch over it.





I had to drill a 11/16" hole.

I would rate the offending brand new SIP cylinder block a D-. I had to cut it down and reweld a washer ring on the end of it.


The red ink mark is my cut line.

That washer thing is what retains the spring inside the block cylinder.



With the washer tack welded back into place.

Welding in the cylinder block was a pain in the butt for sure. There wasn't much room to fit the gun nozzle, so my welds were less than ideal because i couldn't get it close enough to the metal. I also got lots of weld spatter. I think it's because i bumped my regulator, which lowered my shielding gas pressure...arrrg! Oh well, it's glued into place now!




Another look at a P series vs a VB1 opening for the lock cylinder.

The P plate in place

All welded in with the cylinder in the UNLOCK position.

And what the cylinder looks like in the LOCK position. I will still need to drill out the two holes in the block to a larger diameter. The current holes are WAY too small to be use with the stock rivets. Like i said, grade A repair...not.

WHOLY COW!!!
Caught COVID for TGiving and had to read this whole thing starting back there.
Some crazy creative solutions - I am baffled at how exactly you made a counter sunk hole in the shock adapter.

At some point early in this thread - I noted that I thought we (we because I will want to do the same thing) could rotate the lug in the trailing arm bit to get the front wheel to be centered - but clearly that left a lot of knock on consequences that you had to deal with...

Great stuff with the fork getting to the 20mm.
Much nicer set up for long term.

Some great craftsmanship and problem solving throughout.
The P2 tube will add a ton of strength and stiffness.
One thing I just couldn't quite understand tho.
You seemed to want to extend the fork down lower - but then it created the gap you didn't want.
What was the reason that you were extending it down in the first place?

Was that ONLY because you attached the P200 receiver tube to the existing lower race - or did you want to get that extra length?

I NEEDED to lower the fork. It was not an option to keep it where it was. The reason being is that the upper shock mount aluminum casting on a P/PX fork is MUCH larger than on a PK's (go back up the page and look at the size difference between the PX and PK's upper shock plates). When i would turn the handlebars to the right, the upper aluminum casting would make hard contact with the legshield. The only option was to lower the fork far enough in column in order to push it further away from the legshield. If it were a PKXL fork, then the standard practice would be to "simply" (ha, i said simply. We both know that's not true) space the fork down a tiny smidge with a second P series lower bearing race (it's something like 1/4"ish thick?) and then install shims under the mudguard to keep it away from the legshield.

I just got lucky that i had a junk P series frame AND that a P series steering column could be easily modified enough to slip into a VB1...AND that it gave me a perfect spacing between the back of the mudguard and the legshield. The only downside is the Lauren Hutton's sized gap between the top of the mudguard and the bottom of the horncasting. I don't think i'm going to sweat it at all though. The front end is modded enough that a gap won't look too out of place.

What a job !!! Awesome

Just a kick ass job of upgrading.
I am getting prepped to tackle my own rusty wireframe scuttle bucket - so following closely.
Agreed - the gap would be weird if you were trying to create a concourse restoration - here - it kinda just feels like part of the package.
Heading back to re-read and look at the issues.
I've used the PKXL conversion on my VBB.
They are expensive/ and I ended up re-modifying anyway.
Had planned to go P2 for this one - but will have a closer look first.

Just a kick ass job of upgrading.
I am getting prepped to tackle my own rusty wireframe scuttle bucket - so following closely.
Agreed - the gap would be weird if you were trying to create a concourse restoration - here - it kinda just feels like part of the package.
Heading back to re-read and look at the issues.
I've used the PKXL conversion on my VBB.
They are expensive/ and I ended up re-modifying anyway.
Had planned to go P2 for this one - but will have a closer look first.

Welding on the sheet metal is super impressive.
Very nice.

I also have a PKXL fork for my Allstate 200 VBA project. I've been trying to figure out for the past 3-4 years how to get the mudguard exactly where i want it. I'm coming to the conclusion that the solution i'm after doesn't exist. my VBA came with the PKXL fork (and a semi-hydro Grimeca disc) when i bought it, but hindsight i probably should have just replaced the PK fork with a stock version, and then also replace the Grimeca with a Crimas (or some other brand). If i had done all of that, my Allstate would be back on the road by now!

NOTE: i think i might have just planted a really expensive seed in my brain...

Somewhere in my 90 pages - one of my first projects was the fork.
If you think I don't know what I'm doing now - you should go back and see then!

That said - I saw how robust the casting for the shock tower mount was - and basically - just went wild clipping it back and shaving it down - until the mud guard could sit far lower.

Basically - I took away as much material as I could - then used spacers to get the guard at an angle I was happy with.
Managed to get the edge of the mudguard down to about where the rim and tire meet - which was nice for my eye.
Then tilted it until it was parallel with the legshield which it just cleared.

But since we are talking mudguards here... and you have crafted such a cool one yourself for this project - here is where my mind is at for my handlebar wireframe project now in consideration.


The very first 98. Remarkably - it had features that disappeared until much later. 3D curve on the leg shield, cool lean over kick stand, and check out that bad-ass mudguard!

You + Handlebar Vespa = something rad