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parallelogramerist
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qascooter wrote:
Don't sell yourself short there Kemosabe - you do what us mere mortals only dream of doing...
Well thank you Scott, but all anyone needs is an old rusty scooter, wrecked P200 frame and engine, welder, huge shop, plenty of time, and a broken foot. Being single is definitely paramount with the whole "plenty of time" aspect.
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parallelogramerist
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I finished up, or at least i think i finished up with the aluminum plate. It took a little bit of heat and a brass hammer to massage the aluminum exactly where i wanted it. I then ran more of the M6 cap screws through the body seam.

Hindsight, looking at these photos, i could have made a much longer piece of aluminum plate that would travel most of the way up to the bottom of the horn casting?...but just as long as the rear portion of the mudguard didn't rub against it. I still could have made it at least 6" longer without any fitment issues. It would have strengthen the frame up quite a bit more if i had done that.
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Forum member supplied image with no explanatory text
Forum member supplied image with no explanatory text
⚠️ Last edited by whodatschrome on UTC; edited 4 times
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parallelogramerist
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It was finally time to fit the exhaust. I knew that going into this part of the build that the exhaust was going to have to be modified in order to fit. The reason being is that i extended the rear shock bracket enough, that the exhaust would foul out against the bottom of the floorboard when the suspension is at full extension.

I had a perfectly good Sito+ that i modified with a SIP weld on O-ring manifold...that i didn't really want to modify again...but it needed to happen so i made it happen.

First I cut the SIP manifold off the end of the Sito. Then i cut off the rear leg of the mounting bracket. After that i bent the lead leg back to where i wanted the main portion of the box to be.
Forum member supplied image with no explanatory text
You have to look close to see where i cut the rear leg off of the support bracket.
You have to look close to see where i cut the rear leg off of the support bracket.
I made an extension out of 3/16" flat plate.
I made an extension out of 3/16" flat plate.
extension welded into place
extension welded into place
manifold welded back onto the neck. I'll have to relocate the exhaust hanger spring tabs.
manifold welded back onto the neck. I'll have to relocate the exhaust hanger spring tabs.
And a view of the muffler fitted. The next step is to fit a centerstand return spring...which i'm planning on doing tomorrow.
And a view of the muffler fitted. The next step is to fit a centerstand return spring...which i'm planning on doing tomorrow.
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parallelogramerist
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Months and months ago figured this would happen, but i didn't want to check for clearance until now...

...so does anybody know how easily the kickstart lever is to successfully bend? I figured i would heat it up a bunch then go for it.
the centerstand clears the kickstart lever with no problems...but it is close.
the centerstand clears the kickstart lever with no problems...but it is close.
Yeah, the kickstart lever just barely makes some slight contact with the floorboard.
Yeah, the kickstart lever just barely makes some slight contact with the floorboard.
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Nedminder
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Hmmmm.
Do you have a kiln?

Wadda bout:
1. Bend the stand instead. Cheap and cheery.
2. Offset the kicks start by cutting and welding an offset of some kind - grind & polish...
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charlieman22 wrote:
Hmmmm.
Do you have a kiln?

Wadda bout:
1. Bend the stand instead. Cheap and cheery.
2. Offset the kicks start by cutting and welding an offset of some kind - grind & polish...
No kiln hiding in my shop.
I already bent the stand leg just far enough so that the lever will miss it. It's just the floorboard that the lever makes contact with. From my experience of accidentally bending aluminum levers (rear brake levers, gear shifter levers, clutch levers), so far i've found that you can get one good bend before it breaks...at least with all of the aluminum levers on my dirtbikes. I just wasn't sure how well a P lever will bend. I didn't really think of cutting and welding an offset into the lever. I have no idea how well the aluminum will weld. I suppose i could try bending the lever first, and if it breaks, then see how well i can weld it back together?
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What about one of these? Expect it to be slightly shorter.
https://www.sip-scootershop.com/en/product/kickstart-lever-sip-vbb-style_751222CR
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Jack221 wrote:
What about one of these? Expect it to be slightly shorter.
https://www.sip-scootershop.com/en/product/kickstart-lever-sip-vbb-style_751222CR
I was thinking about one of those conversion levers as well. No doubt aesthetically it would look way better than a P series lever! My only hesitation is how much more difficult would it be to kick over the engine with that shorter lever? I guess i'm in absolutely zero rush to fit a kickstart lever. That's literally one of the last things on the list before firing up the scooter.
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Nedminder
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ooo.
Shorter VBB lever - if it works to give clearance - is a great solution.
All these kitted 150's (nearly 200CC on mine) with high compression - is no problem to kick over.
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Sergeant at Arms
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I'd fit one of the conversion levers. I put one on a polini 208 that I sent out the door and honestly it didn't feel much different than the P one.

another option is that you could put in a T5 K/S quad and run a rally lever. that might give you just the clearance you need and will have the "right" look as well.
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Molto Verboso
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whodatschrome wrote:
I was thinking about one of those conversion levers as well. No doubt aesthetically it would look way better than a P series lever! My only hesitation is how much more difficult would it be to kick over the engine with that shorter lever? I guess i'm in absolutely zero rush to fit a kickstart lever. That's literally one of the last things on the list before firing up the scooter.
You'll be fine. I've got two fake hips and no muscles in my legs and I have no problem kicking my VMC177 over with the shorter lever.
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Damn that's so close...

I'm picturing that lever in a roller bender, though no clue where the bend break/too compromised point is. But damn, that's really close.

I'm you have a conversion lever ready to install and just go for it, it won't break. It's science.
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or make an adaptor to fit a wide body kickstart.

the lever is the first thing I look at when I see a wide body, so tripping up that tell for a moment could be fun.
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oopsclunkthud wrote:
or make an adaptor to fit a wide body kickstart.

the lever is the first thing I look at when I see a wide body, so tripping up that tell for a moment could be fun.
Mr. Owens subtly morphing from hero to villain status right before our eyes. I, for one am here for that...
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greasy125 wrote:
Mr. Owens subtly morphing from hero to villain status right before our eyes. I, for one am here for that...
My new years resolution is to be more like adamspx Razz emoticon

I actually spent a little time considering if the kickstart lever could be mounted at the shift box so that it would be in the correct position for a wide body as well. I'll stop now, maybe.
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I wonder if i could make my own kickstart lever with a welder, gas axe, and a 35mm combination wrench...
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I mounted up a bracket to use for the centerstand return spring. I spent a couple hours brain storming...which meant walking around in circles in my shop looking for literally ANYTHING that could possibly be used as a bracket. I finally realized that i had a handful of stainless footman loops (that are to be used on my jeep project). I got lucky and it only took me 15 minutes to find them!...they were inside my jeep. I also had two extra M6 x 6mm aluminum tube spacers that were left over from fabbing up the battery trays for my Allstate 200 and PK. All it took was a couple holes drilled in the aluminum floor support plate.
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centerstand all the way up
centerstand all the way up
stand all the way down
stand all the way down
what it looks like with the exhaust installed. Though it's very close, the spring doesn't rub against anything.
what it looks like with the exhaust installed. Though it's very close, the spring doesn't rub against anything.
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Nedminder
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crafty!
really surprised at how much I like your bottom reinforcement.
Thought at first - why use aluminum, why not weld - but the beaty of that thick skid plate like part has really grown on me.

The little handle you used for the spring is great - but... suspect its cast - which means it might not hold up to the vibrations.
Doesn't really matter I suppose - can alway be replaced and that stand won't fall down and jack your back wheel off the ground if it happens in motion.
Still - something to consider?

Keep up the good work.
SoCal and I talked about how impressed we were when he was up last week.
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charlieman22 wrote:
crafty!
really surprised at how much I like your bottom reinforcement.
Thought at first - why use aluminum, why not weld - but the beaty of that thick skid plate like part has really grown on me.

The little handle you used for the spring is great - but... suspect its cast - which means it might not hold up to the vibrations.
Doesn't really matter I suppose - can alway be replaced and that stand won't fall down and jack your back wheel off the ground if it happens in motion.
Still - something to consider?

Keep up the good work.
SoCal and I talked about how impressed we were when he was up last week.
You can sleep trouble free tonight. That footman loop is a piece of stamped stainless steel, so it's not going to crack. And yes, when a centerstand spring breaks (it's not too uncommon on a Vespa) the legs simply drag effortlessly on the ground while creating sparks. In fact i used to have an old Honda Aero 50 that i welded sacrificial steel plates on its centerstand so that i could force it into the ground with my foot while i was riding. It would shower the long line of cars that would inevitably get caught up behind me.

I was really going back and forth with welding in a stainless steel frame, but in the end i was trying to keep as much of the rust look as possible. So it wasn't about time or money...ok, maybe just a little bit, but it would have only been another $100~$150 in materials. If i get any sort of frame flex how it currently is, i will probably extend that aluminum plate at least another 6" up towards the horncast. If that doesn't cure it, then i'll just buckle down and slip in a tube frame inside the tunnel that will attach to both the engine mount adapter and the fork column. If my frame was just a pinch more rusty, then it would be a no brainer decision to do just that.

You guys are impressed with my work huh?...well we'll just have to see what happens the first time i forget that i'm on a chicken wire reinforced papier-mâché Vespa frame and go riding off a curb at 20mph. Hopefully the frame doesn't snap in half faster than a yellow booted SEA bodge.
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Molto Verboso
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whodatschrome wrote:
You guys are impressed with my work huh?...well we'll just have to see what happens the first time i forget that i'm on a chicken wire reinforced papier-mâché Vespa frame and go riding off a curb at 20mph. Hopefully the frame doesn't snap in half faster than a yellow booted SEA bodge.
The clear difference between your handiwork and the fortune-cookie frames from Ha Long Bay is that you've given far more fecks about build quality than those mooks do.
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Quote:
yellow booted bodge
My next band name
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Looking good man. Over lunch at Denny's, we seriously pondered what was more impressive:

1. Your improv and fabrication skills
2. The fact that you have a massive barn seemingly full of an endless supply of machines and toys and stuff to improvise and fabricate with. Holy Christmas, whatever you're doing up there, keep it up.
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SoCalGuy wrote:
Looking good man. Over lunch at Denny's, we seriously pondered what was more impressive:

1. Your improv and fabrication skills
2. The fact that you have a massive barn seemingly full of an endless supply of machines and toys and stuff to improvise and fabricate with. Holy Christmas, whatever you're doing up there, keep it up.
It's definitely #2. The mid-day Grand Slam breakfast from Denny's has clouded both of your guy's judgement of #1.

But on a more serious note, thank you for the compliment. I REALLY enjoy hanging out in the shop and working on projects (even if it below 40 degrees during most of the winter). No offense to the ladies, but i would prefer to be building something cool in the shop than hanging out. Being single affords me the time and energy to work on shop projects. It might sound selfish, but sorry girls, i'd rather be wrenching and riding...

...well except for today. The high winds just knocked out the power this morning (again), so i can't work in the shop.
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Bummer on the power!
Especially with a day of play available.
We get more hermit like in our old age.
🙂.

Same storms down here - tho milder.
Ocean is white capped.
Sky is gray.
I'm off to work on my shop…
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charlieman22 wrote:
Bummer on the power!
Especially with a day of play available.
We get more hermit like in our old age.
🙂.

Same storms down here - tho milder.
Ocean is white capped.
Sky is gray.
I'm off to work on my shop…
I just turned 47 and I was way worse in my early 20's. I would get home from work at around 5pm, then wrench into my Jeep CJ7 until about 10~11pm every weeknight. On the weekends i would wrench in the shop from sun up to at least midnight to 1 AM. I probably had a vitamin D deficiency from being inside that pole barn for so many years back then. My core group of friends finally called me out one day about me never hanging out with them anymore. I currently have great friends and the same beat up old CJ7. No doubt great friends are better than worldly possessions.
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I'm beginning to switch gears (get it?) and started figuring out where all to run my control cables...mainly the clutch and gear at the moment. I've been racking my brain for the past few days trying to come up with a few ideas, but i only came up with one. I feel as though it's not optimal, but i think i'll be satisfied with the final results.

I used a gas axe to heat up the stainless engine bracket adapter until it was brightly glowing. I then took a round rod and hammered it into the red hot steel. It created an indentation that was a little bit larger diameter than the clutch cable. I will need to make a couple more indentations for the gear cable.
There was really no worry that i was going to melt through the stainless since it physically can't be cut with an oxy acetylene torch.
There was really no worry that i was going to melt through the stainless since it physically can't be cut with an oxy acetylene torch.
When the stainless was still red hot, i pounded the side of the round punch into the bracket.
When the stainless was still red hot, i pounded the side of the round punch into the bracket.
The contour is smoother and rounder than it looks.
The contour is smoother and rounder than it looks.
I made sure that the indentation groove was directly inline with the clutch cable adjuster on the engine block.
I made sure that the indentation groove was directly inline with the clutch cable adjuster on the engine block.
The cable easily slips through floor support plate. I'll have to make a couple more indentations for the gear cables tomorrow or the next day.
The cable easily slips through floor support plate. I'll have to make a couple more indentations for the gear cables tomorrow or the next day.
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I pounded in another groove into the engine adapter bracket. It's wide enough for both gear cables. Though i don't think it will do much, i decided to tie the aluminum floor support plate to the engine bracket. There was only room to fit three M6 cap screws, so it won't provide much more structure. But hey, every little bit helps, right?
Where i pounded in the second groove for the cables.
Where i pounded in the second groove for the cables.
There's lots lot swapping around of gas bottles when you're welding three different types of metals.
There's lots lot swapping around of gas bottles when you're welding three different types of metals.
This is the short strip of 1/8" stainless that i welded onto the bracket.
This is the short strip of 1/8" stainless that i welded onto the bracket.
And with the 3 additional screws installed
And with the 3 additional screws installed
There's not much if any room to weld in another plate on the bracket, so it will only get 3 screws.
There's not much if any room to weld in another plate on the bracket, so it will only get 3 screws.
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That'l add some significant stiffness.
The plate will be constrained from U shaping.
At the other end - it gets narrow - so it will already be getting constrained on that same plane.
Like the way you are harvesting the extra 25%!

Question - are you gas welding any of this?!?
Or is this all MIG/ with different gas?
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charlieman22 wrote:
That'l add some significant stiffness.
The plate will be constrained from U shaping.
At the other end - it gets narrow - so it will already be getting constrained on that same plane.
Like the way you are harvesting the extra 25%!

Question - are you gas welding any of this?!?
Or is this all MIG/ with different gas?
No gas welding. It's all MIG with different gasses. With the mild steel i'm using 75% argon/25% carbon dioxide. With aluminum it's 100% argon. The stainless is with a tri-mix of 90 Helium, 7.5% argon, 2.5% CO2. Yes, with normal TIG you would use 100% argon on stainless. But when MIG welding stainless you need the helium tri mix. What i'd really love to have tried on this project was to have experimented with silicon bronze! I haven't used it yet, but it would have looked super cool on the front fender's shock bulge.
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When i reangled the Sito muffler bracket, i also had to cut off and reweld the manifold sleeve onto the down tube. And since i did that, the spring hanger loops that i welded into the Sito were now in the incorrect spot. So i cut them both off and welded new ones on...but the one problem was that the engine had a missing chunk of its case where i had planned to hang a spring bracket off of. It never bothered me that it was missing, so i never fixed it when it would have been easier to fix (such as when the cases were stripped down). But now i didn't really have an option. I searched around my shop for a chunk of cast aluminum that was somewhat a similar shape-ish so that i could fashion into a something i could work with. During my hunt i saw that i has an exploded up P case (that i forgot i had in my scrap metal pile). That case donated it's piece to my good case!
Forum member supplied image with no explanatory text
this is what the exploded case looks like. You can see the missing chunk in my good engine.
this is what the exploded case looks like. You can see the missing chunk in my good engine.
With the piece surgically removed from the blown up case.
With the piece surgically removed from the blown up case.
Forum member supplied image with no explanatory text
Forum member supplied image with no explanatory text
Forum member supplied image with no explanatory text
With it welded into place. I only did a little bit of grinding on the weld beads since i didn't want to throw aluminum dust all over my assembled case. I can always clean it up and make it prettier the next time i split the cases.
With it welded into place. I only did a little bit of grinding on the weld beads since i didn't want to throw aluminum dust all over my assembled case. I can always clean it up and make it prettier the next time i split the cases.
This is what it looks like with both exhaust springs finally attached.
This is what it looks like with both exhaust springs finally attached.
Both the gear and clutch cables are spaced plenty far enough away from the hot exhaust.
Both the gear and clutch cables are spaced plenty far enough away from the hot exhaust.
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Jet Eye Master
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Amazing what you can do. Good to have the case fixed but I usually drill a hole in the bottom cylinder fin to put the spring on. Has a straighter line and less risk.
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parallelogramerist
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Jack221 wrote:
Amazing what you can do. Good to have the case fixed but I usually drill a hole in the bottom cylinder fin to put the spring on. Has a straighter line and less risk.
Agreed! I would have loved to drill a hole in the bottom cylinder fin instead. It would have been a no brainer during my engine build last year, but i REALLY didn't want to remove the cylinder and clean off the Yamabond, only to reseal it back up once again today. I'll have to make a mental note to drill that hole the next time i have to remove the cylinder...hopefully that will be around 10k miles...if i go easy on the shift cross.
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Nice work. That scoot looks solid. Someday a TIG welder is in my future.
⬆️    About 2 months elapsed    ⬇️
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I did some work this week on the VB1.
I tack welded in a choke pull housing (that was out of my Allstate 208 project) to the VB. I would have liked to have installed the choke in the exact spot as the GS150, but there wasn't enough room and it would have prevented the fuel tank from sitting where it needs to be. Hindsight i could have just clearanced the bottom of the fuel tank...oh well.
Forum member supplied image with no explanatory text
Forum member supplied image with no explanatory text
Forum member supplied image with no explanatory text
Forum member supplied image with no explanatory text
The choke pull isn't in the optional position aesthetically, but it is in a spot that does as least work spatially.
The choke pull isn't in the optional position aesthetically, but it is in a spot that does as least work spatially.
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I decided to go for broke...by choosing to do what a broke person would do to apply a primer. I bought a gallon of Rustoleum "rusty metal" primer. I slathered two REALLY heavy coats in the whole tunnel areas and under the back of the frame. I'm not going to apply any sort of top coat. The dribbling coats of primer are exactly the look i was after. Now i need to wait about a week for it to harden up enough before i go any further...
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@charlieman22 avatar
UTC

Nedminder
62 VBB1T Round Tail W/ leaner sidecar
Joined: UTC
Posts: 4071
Location: california
 
Nedminder
@charlieman22 avatar
62 VBB1T Round Tail W/ leaner sidecar
Joined: UTC
Posts: 4071
Location: california
UTC quote
Loving this.
I use that stuff in spray form and it does a good job in touch situations.
The thicker brush applied is right on for this execution.

I was thinking about ur tunnel fix:
I imagine you will get really good stiffness out of it - and the tunnel access for future has always appealed to my restomod sensibilities.

Knowing u r an advanced rider - I can imagine from time to time u will find yourself standing on the floor boards.
Here u might have more flex then desired - as they might hinge at the tunnel where the original stanchions are cut off?

Maybe not - I'm just looking at pics…
Wadda u think?
OP
UTC

parallelogramerist
Joined: UTC
Posts: 5093
 
parallelogramerist
Joined: UTC
Posts: 5093
UTC quote
charlieman22 wrote:
Loving this.
I use that stuff in spray form and it does a good job in touch situations.
The thicker brush applied is right on for this execution.

I was thinking about ur tunnel fix:
I imagine you will get really good stiffness out of it - and the tunnel access for future has always appealed to my moist maker sensibilities.

Knowing u r an advanced rider - I can imagine from time to time u will find yourself standing on the floor boards.
Here u might have more flex then desired - as they might hinge at the tunnel where the original stanchions are cut off?

Maybe not - I'm just looking at pics…
Wadda u think?
It was somewhat therapeutic to simply be able to brush that primer. I've used the same stuff before on my old 77 F250 frame (when i converted it from a 2x to a 4x4). I sprayed the frame about 12 years ago and it's holding up just fine.

And yeah, there is (and always was) a concern about having enough floorboard support with the missing struts. I'll probably just have to be careful when standing up on the floorboards...and absolutely no jumping off of stairs or curbs...well maybe just a few curbs. Depending upon if i eat at a buffet, i normally scale in around 155~158lbs, so at least the floorboards will have that going for them. A riding wardrobe consisting of an open face helmet, split leg running shorts, tank top, and a pair of flip flops should also facilitate to longer lasting floorboards.

All joking aside, i will install the aluminum floorboard strips so that should give me some structure. Also having a single saddle seat might put my feet in a different position on the floorboards?...i dunno for sure. I'll just have to see how it plays out for the first few weeks of riding it around.
@charlieman22 avatar
UTC

Nedminder
62 VBB1T Round Tail W/ leaner sidecar
Joined: UTC
Posts: 4071
Location: california
 
Nedminder
@charlieman22 avatar
62 VBB1T Round Tail W/ leaner sidecar
Joined: UTC
Posts: 4071
Location: california
UTC quote
I've seen guys brush on primer like that for their mill/lathe restores when doing the inside.
Then they weenie roll the outside and light sand before paint.
Seems so much simpler then setting up a spray booth...
Nice and thick also.

As for floorboards - not being a critic.
In fact - trying to come up with my own plan and just came to realize that some support was gonna be called for.

Will be interested to see what you whip up for aluminum cross members.
At some point - am following this (off) road.
OP
UTC

parallelogramerist
Joined: UTC
Posts: 5093
 
parallelogramerist
Joined: UTC
Posts: 5093
UTC quote
charlieman22 wrote:
I've seen guys brush on primer like that for their mill/lathe restores when doing the inside.
Then they weenie roll the outside and light sand before paint.
Seems so much simpler then setting up a spray booth...
Nice and thick also.

As for floorboards - not being a critic.
In fact - trying to come up with my own plan and just came to realize that some support was gonna be called for.

Will be interested to see what you whip up for aluminum cross members.
At some point - am following this (off) road.
I'm not even planning on any sort of custom aluminum cross members. Just the stock floor runners...most likely from a P200...since for some reason i have an abundance of used P series floor runners. If the floorboards end up not being strong enough, then plan B is to redo the aluminum floor plate. I'll simply remove the rest of the struts, primer the complete underside of the floorboards, then install a full width piece of 3/16" aluminum plate. And since this is the rainy side of oregon, i'd probably drill a bunch of random drain holes in the aluminum plate so that some of the water can drain out.
@charlieman22 avatar
UTC

Nedminder
62 VBB1T Round Tail W/ leaner sidecar
Joined: UTC
Posts: 4071
Location: california
 
Nedminder
@charlieman22 avatar
62 VBB1T Round Tail W/ leaner sidecar
Joined: UTC
Posts: 4071
Location: california
UTC quote
ahhh. got it.
looking more closely now - I see you extended the plate out past the tunnel edge - so your gonna get some support from that.
Maybe it won't need any more in the end.
Now that you raise all those issues - like drying out - you've given me something to ponder.

🙂
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