Thu Nov 11, 2021 7:04 am

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Thu Nov 11, 2021 7:04 am linkquote
It feels like the transmission takes a while to 'kick in', and the scoot barely moves forward for approx 15 seconds. A short warm-up at standstill doesn't seem to improve matters.
This only happens for the first start of the journey, it behaves perfectly after that.
Wondering if it might be the clutch slipping, I've cleaned the inside of the clutch bell, and clutch linings, and roughened them up. But it's made no difference.
What else could I try?
Could the choke be to blame, so it's giving the symptoms of the drive system misbehaving?
Belt and rollers replaced about 5,000 km ago, and fine for 4,900 of those kilometres!
I've not since checked the rollers, but is there anything else to consider before removing the transmission cover again?
Thanks in advance for any thoughts on what I could try doing.
Sun Nov 14, 2021 2:36 pm

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Sun Nov 14, 2021 2:36 pm linkquote
Just giving my own post a bump, in the hope someone can give some pointers...
I realise the choke may not be relevant for a fuel injection scoot.
Wondering if I need to check out the rollers?
Sun Nov 14, 2021 3:04 pm

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Sun Nov 14, 2021 3:04 pm linkquote
When it is sluggish taking off, is the engine revving up and the bike isn't responding? If so, it is slipping somewhere in the drive train. If the engine doesn't rev up, it is more than likely it is engine related.
Sun Nov 14, 2021 4:24 pm

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Sun Nov 14, 2021 4:24 pm linkquote
VesperGeezer wrote:
Just giving my own post a bump, in the hope someone can give some pointers...
I realise the choke may not be relevant for a fuel injection scoot.
Wondering if I need to check out the rollers?
Please confirm if your S150 is FI or carb'd.
Sun Nov 14, 2021 11:50 pm

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Sun Nov 14, 2021 11:50 pm linkquote
jimc wrote:
Please confirm if your S150 is FI or carb'd.
Thanks for response Jimc, can confirm FI.
Sun Nov 14, 2021 11:56 pm

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Sun Nov 14, 2021 11:56 pm linkquote
NightWing wrote:
When it is sluggish taking off, is the engine revving up and the bike isn't responding? If so, it is slipping somewhere in the drive train. If the engine doesn't rev up, it is more than likely it is engine related.
Thanks for response, Nightwing. The engine sounds and feels like it's about to stall, as the scoot barely creeps forward. But once over the initial hurdle of trying to first move off, it behaves perfectly.

In summer I had a check engine light keep coming on (although no issues with performance). Dealer read the fault codes and a new O2 sensor was fitted. It's only recently the problem of first getting going has materialised.
Mon Nov 15, 2021 1:28 am

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Mon Nov 15, 2021 1:28 am linkquote
The first thing I'd do would be to clean the throttle body, but only because that's quick and easy! Then I'd check and adjust the valve clearances, which is the usual culprit for sluggish take-off on these engines, especially when not fully warmed up.
Mon Nov 15, 2021 9:24 am

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Mon Nov 15, 2021 9:24 am linkquote
jimc wrote:
The first thing I'd do would be to clean the throttle body, but only because that's quick and easy! Then I'd check and adjust the valve clearances, which is the usual culprit for sluggish take-off on these engines, especially when not fully warmed up.
Thanks again jimc, I like your thinking on checking the easy stuff first. I have some cleaner- I figure you mean 'a spray into the intake while the engine is running job'?

I will give that a go tomorrow and report back if there's any improvement. If not the valve check is overdue anyway, so that could be the next port of call.
Mon Nov 15, 2021 9:32 am

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Mon Nov 15, 2021 9:32 am linkquote
VesperGeezer wrote:
Thanks again jimc, I like your thinking on checking the easy stuff first. I have some cleaner- I figure you mean 'a spray into the intake while the engine is running job'?
Yep. With particular attention to the idle bypass - though it doesn't sound as though that's any problem at the moment. But it just could be a bit of gunge on the butterfly itself.
Quote:
I will give that a go tomorrow and report back if there's any improvement. If not the valve check is overdue anyway, so that could be the next port of call.
Mon Nov 22, 2021 2:06 pm

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Mon Nov 22, 2021 2:06 pm linkquote
I had to get throttle body cleaner sent by post, none of our 3 local motor spares places carried it in stock...
Anyhow, it's sadly not made any difference to the hesitation when moving off.
I've got a valve cover gasket coming so then I can check valve clearances, and I've also ordered some new rollers. I reason if I'm going in there to check, I may as well replace despite the old set only being in for 5k ish km. The new rollers will be a tiny bit heavier, and I'm interested to see if there's any effect on top speed.
More news as and when...
Tue Nov 23, 2021 11:05 am

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Piaggio Bevery 300 ie - 2012
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Tue Nov 23, 2021 11:05 am linkquote
VesperGeezer wrote:
Thanks for response, Nightwing. The engine sounds and feels like it's about to stall, as the scoot barely creeps forward. But once over the initial hurdle of trying to first move off, it behaves perfectly.

In summer I had a check engine light keep coming on (although no issues with performance). Dealer read the fault codes and a new O2 sensor was fitted. It's only recently the problem of first getting going has materialised.
What does it do when you start it on the center stand with the rear wheel off the ground?
Does the engine then also feels like it is going to stall if you turn the throttle?

Point is:
- if it does not then there is a problem in the transmission
- if it still does then there is a problem in the engine and probably with the fuel mixture when cold.
Wed Nov 24, 2021 2:35 pm

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Wed Nov 24, 2021 2:35 pm linkquote
PeterCC wrote:
What does it do when you start it on the center stand with the rear wheel off the ground?
Does the engine then also feels like it is going to stall if you turn the throttle?

Point is:
- if it does not then there is a problem in the transmission
- if it still does then there is a problem in the engine and probably with the fuel mixture when cold.
Thanks for your input PeterCC.

Engine revs fine when on the centrestand with the rear wheel off the ground, so looks like a transmission issue.

The replacement rollers came yesterday, so I will hopefully get chance this weekend to investigate, and put in the new, slightly heavier, rollers while I am in there.

I will report back with any news!

Cheers.
Wed Nov 24, 2021 10:46 pm

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Wed Nov 24, 2021 10:46 pm linkquote
Has it ever been different? My LX 125 i.e. did the same from day one. I put it down to the torque converter.
Thu Nov 25, 2021 11:05 am

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Thu Nov 25, 2021 11:05 am linkquote
VesperGeezer wrote:
Thanks for your input PeterCC.

Engine revs fine when on the centrestand with the rear wheel off the ground, so looks like a transmission issue.

The replacement rollers came yesterday, so I will hopefully get chance this weekend to investigate, and put in the new, slightly heavier, rollers while I am in there.

I will report back with any news!

Cheers.
Maybe also best check the complete transmission when open.

I had a problem that looked a bit similar. After a cold start all OK but when I had to come to a stop at an intersection then while slowing down I could hear and feel the engine was forced by the transmission to run too slow, below idle, until the clutch disengaged.

That was not due to the rollers but to a lack of lubrication at the rear pulley. The spring had difficulty to slide the pulley together to bring the belt smoothly to the highest position.
After a few km when the engine and transmission were at temperature there was no issue.
Mon Nov 29, 2021 12:25 pm

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Mon Nov 29, 2021 12:25 pm linkquote
VesperGeezer wrote:
It feels like the transmission takes a while to 'kick in', and the scoot barely moves forward for approx 15 seconds. A short warm-up at standstill doesn't seem to improve matters.
This only happens for the first start of the journey, it behaves perfectly after that.
Wondering if it might be the clutch slipping, I've cleaned the inside of the clutch bell, and clutch linings, and roughened them up. But it's made no difference.
What else could I try?
Could the choke be to blame, so it's giving the symptoms of the drive system misbehaving?
Belt and rollers replaced about 5,000 km ago, and fine for 4,900 of those kilometres!
I've not since checked the rollers, but is there anything else to consider before removing the transmission cover again?
Thanks in advance for any thoughts on what I could try doing.
My GTS has done the same thing since day one..

When engine is cold, it just doesn't want to rev (that is with the wheels on the ground, ready to move forward). After about 10 seconds I can give gas and it works fine...

It does rev a bit higher for the first 10 second, so I believe your choke theory is the correct one.. If once the engine is warm and you re-start the engine again, and the problem is gone, it is definitely the choke, like in my case...

I know you said that "a short warm up at standstill" doesn't seem to improve matters, but you also said that "only get that symptom at the first start of the journey", that seem to point to a cold engine...
Mon Nov 29, 2021 12:41 pm

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Mon Nov 29, 2021 12:41 pm linkquote
Burt37 wrote:
My GTS has done the same thing since day one..

When engine is cold, it just doesn't want to rev (that is with the wheels on the ground, ready to move forward). After about 10 seconds I can give gas and it works fine...

It does rev a bit higher for the first 10 second, so I believe your choke theory is the correct one.. If once the engine is warm and you re-start the engine again, and the problem is gone, it is definitely the choke, like in my case...
The GTS doesn't *have* a choke. The fuel mixture is dictated by the ECU, and is reliant on the idle bypass being clean, and no errant mechanic resetting the TPS.

Far more likely is a valve clearance issue, which is definitely always related to engine temperature.

Plus, the OP's bike isn't a GTS, so experience there is probably irrelevant.
Mon Nov 29, 2021 12:49 pm

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Mon Nov 29, 2021 12:49 pm linkquote
jimc wrote:
The GTS doesn't *have* a choke. The fuel mixture is dictated by the ECU, and is reliant on the idle bypass being clean, and no errant mechanic resetting the TPS.
Having the ECU increasing the amount of fuel at start because of the engine temperature reading, does exactly the same job as an old manual choke.

The only difference is that, finally, the user cannot longer foul the plug and flood the engine...
Mon Nov 29, 2021 2:42 pm

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Mon Nov 29, 2021 2:42 pm linkquote
Burt37 wrote:
Having the ECU increasing the amount of fuel at start because of the engine temperature reading, does exactly the same job as an old manual choke.

The only difference is that, finally, the user cannot longer foul the plug and flood the engine...
True, but there isn't a choke per se, so the 'choke' can't go faulty as there isn't one.
Mon Nov 29, 2021 11:40 pm

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Mon Nov 29, 2021 11:40 pm linkquote
jimc wrote:
True, but there isn't a choke per se, so the 'choke' can't go faulty as there isn't one.
Yes it can go faulty or more correctly stop working, if either the Lambda or the temperature sensor are faulty...

It is a basic electronic controlled automatic choke...


Edit:

Sorry I just re-read your reply...

You are right as in the choke doesn't exist materialistically speaking, as it is simply a function built into the ECU of most FI vehicles, but yes it can stop working for the above mentioned reason..
Tue Nov 30, 2021 1:45 am

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Tue Nov 30, 2021 1:45 am linkquote
Thanks for further comments chaps... JimC is right about there not being a choke, but the role of the choke being performed by the ECU. I wasn't correct in my first musings about a possible choke issue- there being none to cause issues...

I think PeterCC is most likely on the money with a transmission issue, but unfortunately recent work pressures mean I haven't had time to investigate yet. I've found that if I rev the scoot on the stand before departing, the problem *sometimes* doesn't occur. The scooter appears to do the fuel/air/electrical side fine, it's just hesitant as I say- putting the power onto the ground.

Thanks again for all your thoughts, I will definitely update you when I have any news.

Tue Nov 30, 2021 2:06 am

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Tue Nov 30, 2021 2:06 am linkquote
VesperGeezer wrote:
Thanks for further comments chaps... JimC is right about there not being a choke, but the role of the choke being performed by the ECU. I wasn't correct in my first musings about a possible choke issue- there being none to cause issues...

I think PeterCC is most likely on the money with a transmission issue, but unfortunately recent work pressures mean I haven't had time to investigate yet. I've found that if I rev the scoot on the stand before departing, the problem *sometimes* doesn't occur. The scooter appears to do the fuel/air/electrical side fine, it's just hesitant as I say- putting the power onto the ground.

Thanks again for all your thoughts, I will definitely update you when I have any news.


My money is on, that there is absolutely nothing wrong with your scooter, other than you trying to accelerate too quickly, too early when the engine is still cold, and your choke is still on. Depending on the air temperature, it can take several seconds for the ECU to give you access to the full power, required to move the weight of yourself and the scooter.. When the engine is hot, you have no issues...
Tue Nov 30, 2021 10:47 am

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Tue Nov 30, 2021 10:47 am linkquote
Hi Burt37- the thing is I have owned this scoot for three or four years now, and have put about 17,000km on it, and never had this issue before!

Hopefully all will be clearer once I get chance to check out the variator and rollers...
Tue Nov 30, 2021 12:57 pm

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Tue Nov 30, 2021 12:57 pm linkquote
VesperGeezer wrote:
Hi Burt37- the thing is I have owned this scoot for three or four years now, and have put about 17,000km on it, and never had this issue before!

Hopefully all will be clearer once I get chance to check out the variator and rollers...
My reply is based on your first sentence:
Quote:
This only happens for the first start of the journey, it behaves perfectly after that.
I could be easily wrong, and I'm sure you will find eventually what the problem is...
Wed Dec 01, 2021 7:09 am

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Wed Dec 01, 2021 7:09 am linkquote
Before doing anything with the valves I would suggest ruling out an old/glazed belt, sticking rollers, or glazed/sticking variator - basic maintenance of the front half of the transmission. The issue could be explained by any of these items sticking or slipping when cold, rather than the engine being cold. They should last longer than the 5000km you've got on them, but maybe they haven't actually "failed" per se.
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