Tue Nov 23, 2021 7:42 pm

Ossessionato
'70 Super 150, Aprilia SR MT 125, Moto Guzzi Bellagio
Joined: 22 Nov 2011
Posts: 2257
Location: Sydney, Australia
 
Ossessionato
'70 Super 150, Aprilia SR MT 125, Moto Guzzi Bellagio
Joined: 22 Nov 2011
Posts: 2257
Location: Sydney, Australia
Tue Nov 23, 2021 7:42 pm linkquote
I've opened the cases to investigate. To my untrained eye everything looks pretty good. Does anything there look more worn than it should be? Could the kickstart gear have worked it's way out of position somehow? I've put the cases back together without bolting and kickstarter seems to be working. Before I split the cases it would engage then slip. In the last photo, the old gear is on the left.







Tue Nov 23, 2021 11:13 pm

Jet Eye Master
PX221 MHR, O tuned PX200, PX125 and some motorbikes
Joined: 14 Jun 2017
Posts: 3050
Location: London UK
 
Jet Eye Master
PX221 MHR, O tuned PX200, PX125 and some motorbikes
Joined: 14 Jun 2017
Posts: 3050
Location: London UK
Tue Nov 23, 2021 11:13 pm linkquote
The flat spring in the fly side looks like its out of line. Maybe use a PX spring on top?
End of the primary looks pretty chewed. Might be able to clean it up with a file.
Wed Nov 24, 2021 1:30 am

Molto Verboso
'64 Motovespa 150S (177) , '66 Allstate SF, '65 VBB, '66 180SS
Joined: 27 Mar 2013
Posts: 1097
Location: S.Salem, NY
 
Molto Verboso
'64 Motovespa 150S (177) , '66 Allstate SF, '65 VBB, '66 180SS
Joined: 27 Mar 2013
Posts: 1097
Location: S.Salem, NY
Wed Nov 24, 2021 1:30 am linkquote
Looks like the ends of some of the teeth on the tree that the kick start gear engages are all mashed off.
Wed Nov 24, 2021 2:41 am

Ossessionato
'70 Super 150, Aprilia SR MT 125, Moto Guzzi Bellagio
Joined: 22 Nov 2011
Posts: 2257
Location: Sydney, Australia
 
Ossessionato
'70 Super 150, Aprilia SR MT 125, Moto Guzzi Bellagio
Joined: 22 Nov 2011
Posts: 2257
Location: Sydney, Australia
Wed Nov 24, 2021 2:41 am linkquote
Yeah the top of the tree is a bit worn but still seems to be tying in well with the kickstart gear. Everything seems to be engaging now but there's no compression of course. I guess I'll just replace it while I have the cases open. Might try the little PX spring too if it looks like I can get it to stay there without falling into the gears.
Wed Nov 24, 2021 3:01 am

Molto Verboso
'64 Motovespa 150S (177) , '66 Allstate SF, '65 VBB, '66 180SS
Joined: 27 Mar 2013
Posts: 1097
Location: S.Salem, NY
 
Molto Verboso
'64 Motovespa 150S (177) , '66 Allstate SF, '65 VBB, '66 180SS
Joined: 27 Mar 2013
Posts: 1097
Location: S.Salem, NY
Wed Nov 24, 2021 3:01 am linkquote
You could increase the strength of the spring but there is still little for the gear to catch on at least on part of this gear. Could explain why it catches then slips.



Wed Nov 24, 2021 3:59 am

Ossessionato
2 matching N.Z. '69 VBC Super, 177cc Racer, VespaCross Bodge, Puch SRA150, Piaggio Zip 100! & others
Joined: 26 May 2013
Posts: 4189
Location: That bushfire place
 
Ossessionato
2 matching N.Z. '69 VBC Super, 177cc Racer, VespaCross Bodge, Puch SRA150, Piaggio Zip 100! & others
Joined: 26 May 2013
Posts: 4189
Location: That bushfire place
Wed Nov 24, 2021 3:59 am linkquote
Whenever this has happened to me it's something to do with the spacing of the clutch in relation to the brass thingee that moves when the lever moves or cable too tight... I've even managed to get the clutch to work in "reverse" (ie. not touching lever & clutch slips, pull lever in & it engages).
I've fixed it by;
A. When removing/disassembling the motor, undo the adjuster, but leave cables connected, then you never need to adjust them.
B. Add a bit of OUTER cable to end of cables so it's easier to set-up the adjusters (an Il Ginchi trick, also for rear brake cable)
C. Check how close the washer thingee that covers the nut on clutch/crank is to the brass thingee on the clutch cover (that moves when lever moves) & add SHIM/WASHER before putting clutch in, so it is nice n close, but not touching once cables are adjusting.
D. Check clutch plates, clean them (acetone/petrol...) & sand with 120grit to roughen them up a bit


Ohh, & even while testing USE A BOLT WITH NUT for the kickstart, else you will SNAP the kickstarter lever
Wed Nov 24, 2021 9:56 am

Molto Verboso
'64 Motovespa 150S (177) , '66 Allstate SF, '65 VBB, '66 180SS
Joined: 27 Mar 2013
Posts: 1097
Location: S.Salem, NY
 
Molto Verboso
'64 Motovespa 150S (177) , '66 Allstate SF, '65 VBB, '66 180SS
Joined: 27 Mar 2013
Posts: 1097
Location: S.Salem, NY
Wed Nov 24, 2021 9:56 am linkquote
Should have clean ramps with sharp corners like this



Wed Nov 24, 2021 4:03 pm

Ossessionato
'70 Super 150, Aprilia SR MT 125, Moto Guzzi Bellagio
Joined: 22 Nov 2011
Posts: 2257
Location: Sydney, Australia
 
Ossessionato
'70 Super 150, Aprilia SR MT 125, Moto Guzzi Bellagio
Joined: 22 Nov 2011
Posts: 2257
Location: Sydney, Australia
Wed Nov 24, 2021 4:03 pm linkquote
I think the photo makes the top of the tree look worse than it is. It really doesn't look very worn to me but I've never looked at one up close before. I have to pull the cush drive apart to replace the tree, right? Looks like a pain in the arse of a job. I guess I'll just have to do it while I have it out. There's a fair rattle from the cush drive when I shake it. Could that be the issue? I did a forum search and found a thread that said it could be a clutch issue Callum. My mate that owned the scoot before me said he never had any clutch issues, just the kickstart slipping. What's the normal set up to bolt the clutch to the shaft? I had a plain nut and a knurled washer. No locking set up at all. It's a "70 Super 150.
Thu Nov 25, 2021 2:33 am

Ossessionato
2 matching N.Z. '69 VBC Super, 177cc Racer, VespaCross Bodge, Puch SRA150, Piaggio Zip 100! & others
Joined: 26 May 2013
Posts: 4189
Location: That bushfire place
 
Ossessionato
2 matching N.Z. '69 VBC Super, 177cc Racer, VespaCross Bodge, Puch SRA150, Piaggio Zip 100! & others
Joined: 26 May 2013
Posts: 4189
Location: That bushfire place
Thu Nov 25, 2021 2:33 am linkquote
Try adjusting clutch first.
The one we did seemed to work ok, but high compression at startup was causing the slipping, it was a minor adjustment to get it right
Thu Nov 25, 2021 2:58 am

Ossessionato
'70 Super 150, Aprilia SR MT 125, Moto Guzzi Bellagio
Joined: 22 Nov 2011
Posts: 2257
Location: Sydney, Australia
 
Ossessionato
'70 Super 150, Aprilia SR MT 125, Moto Guzzi Bellagio
Joined: 22 Nov 2011
Posts: 2257
Location: Sydney, Australia
Thu Nov 25, 2021 2:58 am linkquote
SubEtherBASS wrote:
Try adjusting clutch first.
The one we did seemed to work ok, but high compression at startup was causing the slipping, it was a minor adjustment to get it right
Too late for that. The motor is totally dismantled. How noisy is the cush drive normally? I'd imagine that the springs in there should be held firmly in place and shouldn't rattle? I'm going to punch the rivets out and have a look as I don't want to reinstall if if it's buggered. Speaking to my mate that owned the scoot, he said that it did make a weird, rattling noise when he down shifted. Also, as suggested, is it ok to hit the top gear of the tree with a file to flatten it out a bit?
Thu Nov 25, 2021 3:38 am

Ossessionato
2 matching N.Z. '69 VBC Super, 177cc Racer, VespaCross Bodge, Puch SRA150, Piaggio Zip 100! & others
Joined: 26 May 2013
Posts: 4189
Location: That bushfire place
 
Ossessionato
2 matching N.Z. '69 VBC Super, 177cc Racer, VespaCross Bodge, Puch SRA150, Piaggio Zip 100! & others
Joined: 26 May 2013
Posts: 4189
Location: That bushfire place
Thu Nov 25, 2021 3:38 am linkquote
Pretty sure of they rattle, they're broken.
I sheared the drive gear off the cush & not have custom lathed/machined tensile 10 (or 12? or bloody strong) rivets... no more issues!
Thu Nov 25, 2021 3:58 am

Ossessionato
'70 Super 150, Aprilia SR MT 125, Moto Guzzi Bellagio
Joined: 22 Nov 2011
Posts: 2257
Location: Sydney, Australia
 
Ossessionato
'70 Super 150, Aprilia SR MT 125, Moto Guzzi Bellagio
Joined: 22 Nov 2011
Posts: 2257
Location: Sydney, Australia
Thu Nov 25, 2021 3:58 am linkquote
Cheers. I'll get a cush rebuild kit. Shopping list is getting long.
Thu Nov 25, 2021 4:08 am

Ossessionato
2 matching N.Z. '69 VBC Super, 177cc Racer, VespaCross Bodge, Puch SRA150, Piaggio Zip 100! & others
Joined: 26 May 2013
Posts: 4189
Location: That bushfire place
 
Ossessionato
2 matching N.Z. '69 VBC Super, 177cc Racer, VespaCross Bodge, Puch SRA150, Piaggio Zip 100! & others
Joined: 26 May 2013
Posts: 4189
Location: That bushfire place
Thu Nov 25, 2021 4:08 am linkquote
I cannot remember which I put in Speedy, but guess it's NOT the generic kit, possibly Polini. The springs were stronger/thicker, so no more issues...
Plus the rivets being so damn hard, theres no chance of changing them.
Thu Nov 25, 2021 4:26 am

Ossessionato
2 matching N.Z. '69 VBC Super, 177cc Racer, VespaCross Bodge, Puch SRA150, Piaggio Zip 100! & others
Joined: 26 May 2013
Posts: 4189
Location: That bushfire place
 
Ossessionato
2 matching N.Z. '69 VBC Super, 177cc Racer, VespaCross Bodge, Puch SRA150, Piaggio Zip 100! & others
Joined: 26 May 2013
Posts: 4189
Location: That bushfire place
Thu Nov 25, 2021 4:26 am linkquote
Here is a post with a wee bit on your topic..

75 MPH (Page 2)
SubEtherBASS wrote:
1 bit is the centre gear in th clutch, the other requires a cush drive rebuild.
Its not as daunting as expected to do

I snapped the pins on the clutch drive gear a few times (too much torque?), & ended having to get tensile 10+ pins custom made... It no longer falls apart
Thu Nov 25, 2021 11:57 am

Ossessionato
'70 Super 150, Aprilia SR MT 125, Moto Guzzi Bellagio
Joined: 22 Nov 2011
Posts: 2257
Location: Sydney, Australia
 
Ossessionato
'70 Super 150, Aprilia SR MT 125, Moto Guzzi Bellagio
Joined: 22 Nov 2011
Posts: 2257
Location: Sydney, Australia
Thu Nov 25, 2021 11:57 am linkquote
Thanks Callum. Found a couple of YouTube videos of how to rebuild the cush. Looks pretty straight forward. With that, new kick starter gear and a light file on the top of the tree I'll hopefully have it sorted.
Thu Nov 25, 2021 11:24 pm

Ossessionato
2 matching N.Z. '69 VBC Super, 177cc Racer, VespaCross Bodge, Puch SRA150, Piaggio Zip 100! & others
Joined: 26 May 2013
Posts: 4189
Location: That bushfire place
 
Ossessionato
2 matching N.Z. '69 VBC Super, 177cc Racer, VespaCross Bodge, Puch SRA150, Piaggio Zip 100! & others
Joined: 26 May 2013
Posts: 4189
Location: That bushfire place
Thu Nov 25, 2021 11:24 pm linkquote
Sounds like you are on the right track.

Whacking the end of the new rivet so it splays out nicely and evenly is the hardest bit. When you do the first one, just tap rather than whack it till you get the hang of hitting squarely.

If you have issues with drilling out the old rivets (ie. cannot keep the hole central) try centre punch, or small drill to get it started, but no stress if you are off centre, just go to a bigger drill bit than the rivet & by the time you will be at the stage where you're worried about damaging the gear, the plate will already be drilled enough that you can prise the plate off once all the rivets have been drilled. If you still cannot get the rivets out, there is always the other side.

Ensure that they are nice n tight once you have finished, as loose rivets WILL wear slots in the holes... ie ensure both ends are hard against the plates, rather than 1 end (usually the unhammered end) has moved a wee bit while hammering & feels tight (coz the hammered end is interference fit) & there is a wee gap between it & the plate), coz once it is in use the rivet will move & loosen.
Sat Nov 27, 2021 11:09 am

Molto Verboso
'64 Motovespa 150S (177) , '66 Allstate SF, '65 VBB, '66 180SS
Joined: 27 Mar 2013
Posts: 1097
Location: S.Salem, NY
 
Molto Verboso
'64 Motovespa 150S (177) , '66 Allstate SF, '65 VBB, '66 180SS
Joined: 27 Mar 2013
Posts: 1097
Location: S.Salem, NY
Sat Nov 27, 2021 11:09 am linkquote
" Also, as suggested, is it ok to hit the top gear of the tree with a file to flatten it out a bit? "
I think you'd just be wasting your time. The tops of the gear teeth are not flat. Surely someone on here can provide you with a decent stock tree. If I had one, I'd send it to you.
Sat Nov 27, 2021 4:17 pm

Ossessionato
'70 Super 150, Aprilia SR MT 125, Moto Guzzi Bellagio
Joined: 22 Nov 2011
Posts: 2257
Location: Sydney, Australia
 
Ossessionato
'70 Super 150, Aprilia SR MT 125, Moto Guzzi Bellagio
Joined: 22 Nov 2011
Posts: 2257
Location: Sydney, Australia
Sat Nov 27, 2021 4:17 pm linkquote
Thanks Moto64. I guess I'll put one on the shopping list. Best to do it once and right.
Thu Dec 02, 2021 9:28 pm

Molto Verboso
63 Lambretta LI 125 series 3, 71 Sprint Veloce , 2005 Vespa PX150, 1979 P200E
Joined: 04 Jul 2011
Posts: 1071
Location: Tucson, AZ
 
Molto Verboso
63 Lambretta LI 125 series 3, 71 Sprint Veloce , 2005 Vespa PX150, 1979 P200E
Joined: 04 Jul 2011
Posts: 1071
Location: Tucson, AZ
Thu Dec 02, 2021 9:28 pm linkquote
I just did a kick gear swap on my PX150 with the P200 engine. The kick gear was completely smashed and worn out badly, it was all chewed up however your kick start gear doesn't look that bad to me. Here is what mine looked like(see picture below).

To me your problem is the first gear on the Christmas tree, it looks smashed.



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