Modern Vespa

Just saw this one on Instagram

A 206cc kit for the small block engines!

Interesting. So either a 62mm crank with a 65mm cylinder or a 60mm crank with a 66mm cylinder.

Given that the seem to include the crank, I'm going to guess the former. Gonna be a thin skirt on that piston either way.

I am wondering what that orange plate is for though? Any ideas?

Blocking the cylinder's intake. They can work with rotary or direct reed intake...

I'm pretty sure that's a direct intake cylinder. You can see the intake at the base of it, so it'd be a blanking plate for your existing intake.

yes, it is a cylinder inducted reed intake. Uses a specific crank, and a proprietary exhaust; as the ex-outlet is a different size than a 150 or 200. The have a bit more detail on the FB page, and freakmoped gave his initial take on this as well. Could be promisin, although I'd prefer the ability to use a standard 200'er pipe

How about a vacuum operated two barrel. Small carburetor on reeds and a small carb on rotary. Use the rotary for lower rpm and when you get enough suction reeds would open on second carburetor.

That sure looks like a long piston rod. I wonder how smooth it will be or if it will be a bit harder to rev up?

Large wallet necessary I'm sure!

There's no skirt on the cylinder like the Quattrini 2xx. Uses a 60mm stroke crank with a 130mm conrod...

polini tried this with a double intake for small frames.

a little finicky to set up and jet out, obviously, but ultimately for the same amount of work and nonsense a giant ass reed and big ass carb do the the same thing. dialed in, it'll run about the same. at least in my experience.

intriguing, but no o-ring on the cylinder head. boosville. I mean, yeah, there's more points of clamping load but still...

also, I'll bet it's gonna be a bajillion dollars!

good lord...

also, look at that piston on the right! looks like a KX series, no skirt and rings way up there.

Pinasco had the old LF cylinder that you could run with two carbs. i don't think anyone was real successful with setting that up.

1 carb =KISS; Keep it Simple Stupid.

oh gawd... just when I thought I had scrubbed my frontal cortex of all remaining memories of that wretched beast...

I worked on one for a client for some time. you could get it to run okay in only two ranges and never a third, so you had to compromise. just a right pain in the dick. add to that, fun mess a super light flywheel and you couldn't get the damn thing to idle unless the RPM was WAY WAY up and then you'd blow out clutch baskets and cush drives.

a great return customer, but at a cost.

I'm seeing entire cases encased in a thick layer of aluminum welding...

Interesting

Parma has has their "sixty six cylinder kit" (66mm piston). It's a 195cc if you use the 57mm crank. If you decide to use a 60mm crank, then it bumps it up to a 205cc.

https://www.sip-scootershop.com/en/product/racing-cylinder-parmakit-tsv-66-195-cc_75040100

So what are you saying, we just need to use a two barrel Webber?

Wonder how much the reed inlet manifold costs?

Can't believe a Pinasco experience would be any better than the old Quattrini M1XL.

Pinasco posted a video on FB of how the piston is inside the cylinder. IMHO, having half the piston hanging out of the bore doesn't inspire much confidence. And we all know their track record with cracked pistons...

"The crankshaft is a generous dedicated Pinasco, 60mm stroke and 127mm connecting rod"


https://www.pinascostore.com/star-150-2t/2478-gruppo-termico-206cc.html#googtrans(it|en)

At first glance this looks like a game changer for small block engines...which really aren't small block at all in the typical sense.

I would have expected people to be all over this with lots of videos and feedback, but it's been crickets.

I wonder if it's that many seem to get sufficient performance from the 177 kits available. I get the impression that some of these kits offer performance gains beyond just an increase in raw displacement, making big block solutions not as important as they once might have been. Just thinking out loud as someone who lacks perspective and experience.

I think there are a number of factors at play here.

First off is cost--for the cash Pinasco is probably looking for, it's just not value-for-money to go this route.

Add in the questionable engineering trade-off's the had to make in order to make it work combined with Pinasco's increasingly shaky reputation for poor-quality products and the the fact that the target audience for this are all people who *know* all this and can evaluate it.

Think about how much performance you can build for $1,200 USD (plus shipping) with known, vetted parts and designs. And that's just the top end, crank, and exhaust.

1k euro, currently on 10% discount...

https://www.pinascostore.com/star-150-2t/2478-gruppo-termico-206cc.html

That makes a lot of sense.

Hi,
I asked a few questions to Pinasco and they answered me, I'll share that with you.
have a good day

I was reading somewhere about someone who modified a small block to fit a stick 200 cylinder. I'm sure he wasn't the first and only. He didn't explain exactly how he did it, but I would imagine it involves modifying the case studs and ports. I think the case also had to be modified to accommodate the crank.

I would guess the reason I haven't heard about a lot of people doing this is because the amount of work required is not worth it for the performance gains it would give compared to off the shelf solutions.

You'd have to relocate the cylinder studs, then bore out the cylinder face and swap the ports. It's all do-able, but unless you just really want the experience, you're better off buying some Malossi cases.

Yeah, that too. I'm sure some have done it just for sport.

something to keep in mind is that up until just a few years ago none of this was even a remote possibility. back further it was a "you get what you get and you don't get upset" level of performance parts.

unless you shelled out beaucoup dinero to somebody in europe or knew some mad scientist level scooter person you were stuck with malossi, polini and pinasco basically.

at any rate, if I was modding up a small block I'd go MC cylinder, not even a modern one, over a 200 every time.

Pinasco e-mail

I equate the old muscle car HP wars of the 60's/early 70's and the current light truck diesel torque wars to today's and tomorrow's Vespas and Lambrettas cylinder kit HP wars.

hahaha! what utter bullshit! "we don't know malossi cases"

my ass, like they don't know malossi's secret sauce.

Sorry..."MC" cylinder?

I won't actually be building an engine for awhile...just curious about this stuff.

^^^Braaaaap!

Motorcycle cylinder.

read and research, it's all here and on the web. don't be afraid to ask.

when that time comes, chances are you'll be just fine and dandy with something off the shelf and minimal tuning.

Also worth considering...how much performance are you trying to get? Once you get above 24-25 HP, the cost of those P200 Malossi cases becomes pretty nominal compared to the cost of all the other high-strength parts you're going to need.

And, frankly, at that point you're already getting into builds involving VForce4 reeds, big side draft carbs, crazy cranks, $500+ exhausts and $50 cruciforms, etc.

And it's not like 30 HP (absolute best case here) can't be done lots of other ways without a bunch of proprietary parts if you're talking about large block builds. Hell, the Pinasco 251, which is supposedly about 27-28HP out of the box and tunable to at least twice that is only $2500 these days and includes the cases and clutch, making it effectively *cheaper* than the 206 kit.

If you want to buy a bunch of proprietary parts, at least go for maximum value in the process.

"We don't know what our major competitors produce" lol what