Modern Vespa

I'm making up for CM2's lack of reed valve love (hugely appreciative of the persistence with the rotary pad work btw…), I've taken the easy way out and found some old PX cases, welded them up (the guy who did it was half arsed, but beggars can't be choosers…) and ported it to take another vforce4/Malossi 210 kit…

Hope to document the build here…

A little worried actually with the bearing seats… something tells me they might be warped… only time will tell when I install the crank…

Only a 210? No (extra-)long stroke crank?

I'm prepping to take my 210 in the same direction, just haven't quite kicked it off yet, so I'm definitely here for this!

Ah yes, will be a 60mm crank. Have one on the sidelines ready…

Time to do it CM! Let's get this winter project kicked off!

(But I've still got to rebuild the primary and buy the output shaft….) will be a long journey… last engine was a good 18month piece together…

My very similar build starts to get interesting around about here:

https://modernvespa.com/forum/post2286504#2286504

I also started with a set of matching case halves that had been butchered by the previous owner. I probably went overboard on the inlet and the crank side edge is a little thin, but it seems to hold tight with a Scooter & Service reed block sealed on top of it. Good advise was to use the 57mm MHR kit, but with a 60mm bell crank and [currently] a 1.0mm base spacer to give 221cc and c.129/186 port timings. It now has Vape variable timing and an MRP 'race' head. Getting the cylinder cowl to fit was a bear with much trimming with a craft knife. Only two upgrades left to do and that's an increase in exhaust duration (~196) and a suitable expansion chamber - any one that allows me to keep the centre stand !!

Signed up and watching.
Looks like you did a nice job opening up the inlet for the reeds.

Thats great!

I was searching for reed malossi 210 threads here, I definitely know of seeing a few via google searches... would be awesome to revisit builds that people worked on.

Trawling through Safis's P build now...

Forgot to mention, will be looking at the new MHR single ring cylinder... will be a Xmas bonus purchase... lol Thanks! Shouldve taken more care with the rotary tool, but hand finishing it is pretty satisfying...
Didnt want to go for a mirror polish finish though... was referencing some work done back in the UK where the ports were slightly roughed up...

Honestly, need to learn how to weld alu... sick of being a slave to the work done here.

Similar to the best. Set up is everything. There can be about 20 bhp between 221s using all the same parts. Setting up is where the magic happens. I'll chime in as needed if you have a thread for it.

Is this the same 221 we were jetting or another?

Different engine mate... so I've basically got a blank canvas.

But again, it might actually be trash cos it seems to be from a written off bike and i havent built it up ever.

I have a 60mm crank and a 68teeth primary (i actually can swap it, but the rest of the christmas tree is stock)

Everything else is i'll need to track down. I dont want to pull from the other engine which runs...

I know you said you want a street racer, but a 68 tooth primary is going to be low, unless you're looking for a build that's going to get to ~60 MPH really quickly, but not much beyond.

I'd go with a 65 tooth (P200) primary if I were you.

Or put a 3.00 x 11" rim on the back with a 130/70-11 tyre

So reviving this thread, been too busy with work to really focus on it.

A lot of the parts have been installed, so basically a retrospect now…

LOOOOOONG STORY SHORT… the cases were trash… the welder warped a few of the bolt holes around the stator… and worse of all, one of the cylinder studs…

Lesson for CM, weld slow… and stay away from holes you want to keep aligned… lol…

Some progress photos

Or just keep the motor assembled while you do it!

You can't make it too easy for yourself. Have to add some levels of difficulty…

I think best practice is to machine a round stock to run between the bearing journals that keeps them square.

That's definitely a good idea,

Maybe something similar for the cylinder bolts? Or maybe just use an old cylinder bolted down?

More photos

I have a different (earlier?) version of that clutch plate and have really liked it. I've had mine for at least five years now in my hotrod LML motor pressing on a BGM Superstrong clutch without issues. Well, clutch plate issues, anyway.

One of the Aussies had one (Ginch, maybe) and had a bad experience with his, though I forget the details.

Looks like it might explode, it's a bit thin in some areas… but wonder what the problem could have been

I had the (an?) eralier version of bearing pressure plate but when I changed to the Cosa clutch nut it didn't work.

I know there were a few problems with fit with a lot of these bearing pressure plates.

Having a taller nut, and then not having it fit is a pita…

Last bits of the engine

Looking good 108. are they the same cases? How did you get around the warping?

Yes I had a different version of the pressure plate, it had a stub attached that took the place of the push rod. I think there was no allowance for lateral movement, also perhaps not enough lubrication for extended long higher speed runs? Not sure about the last bit. Destroyed the plate and the clutch.

I have the one with the push rod/top hat integrated into it. I think that if your clutch cover and your crankshaft/clutch were even slightly off center from the cover, that could destroy it.

I don't think lubrication is an issue, though.

Different cases, had to give up on the welded cases… this one is the old old v1 Malossi cases (seems like piaggio rejects) from SIP. These are epoxy-ed up on the transfer front…

Epoxy works, just have to keep in mind that it needs anchoring in the metal, it's not actually that hard, and it doesn't stick to anything… (which means you can't layer it…)

Using painters tape to create "molds" for the epoxy to sit in, is one of the best tips I learnt.

I've put the welded cases to one side… hopefully one day I can find someone to machine the surfaces and holes so they fit properly again…

Never seen the pressure plate and actuation arm in one piece… doesn't sound very forgiving with the tolerances between parts…

It looks like the single-piece version has been replaced in favor of a two-piece, which makes sense for all the reasons discussed above. I just got lucky that mine has worked without issue, I guess.

Have a picture of it?

This is more-or-less it:

More pics

You may have mentioned it, but what reed kit are you using?

Looks like a VForce4 in the picture above.

Yeah like CM mentioned, it's a vforce4, on a mrp manifold. With a polini pwk28 carb…

If I could choose again, I'd probably get something else. The vforce reeds seem a little stiff and power kicks in a little late…

So why is the kickstart lever flipped over?

It isn't… angle of the photo?

Hey - 108!
just catching up.
Build looks great.
Not sure it's the reeds creating the lag in it taking off?
Perhaps recap your jetting and remind me about the exhaust you chose?

BTW - I have the clutch with ball bearings that exploded on Ginch.
I've got about 3K - or 4K miles on it now.
I bought the same one you are using as well - but when time came to do this build - I inspected my existing older style - and it seemed fine - so I kept it.
Has been trouble free (knock on wood), and performed really nicely for me.

Ginch - how many miles where on yours when it exploded?
Maybe it was just a defective one?

108 - give us some more details on how it's running.
When do you feel it kick in.
Share a little video from your phone if you can - to let us hear it - if you want some input on tuning.

-CM

I bought a V force copy from Aliexpress (Vforce 3 I think?) and they are quite different stiffness. Not sure which is firmer but can have a look if you're interested. Maybe, but I feel like Chandlerman was right and it really needed to be perfectly central.

Hey CM2!

Yeah just a reminder, it's a scooter & service newline exhaust, with a polini pwk28, with 45pilot, jjk 2nd clip from top, 142 main jet.

Spent a good day just riding around to dial in the air-mix screw, just to make sure the pilot jet and idle were right…

Was in between 42 and 45… 45 was just more stable at stop lights and idle

Glad you chimed in! Would love to do a video of the riding… but I'm trying to find a decent way of recording the riding with the phone without putting it in a pocket and having blank screen footage… I've tried the MRP phone adaptor… works terrible with the PX headset… any ideas?

you assumed I read back that far?
Makes sense tho now that I better understand what the issue was.
At some point - I should probably replace it with the newer one I bought.
I think the reason I skipped it was; I had heated and bent the rod that comes out of the clutch cover that the cable goest though and pulls on (so it was perpendicular to the cable when adjusted). I also have an adapter that moves my clutch cover out 5mm. All that different geometry would have to be accounted for again if I changed over to the newer version I think.

Ah also forgot to post this (for anyone who might be interested, lol):

The polini is quite different to a keihin 28… the polini seems to have improved on a lot of the fuel delivery issues (a lot highlighted in GSF forums).

Polini has wider fuel banjo (but the hose angle is still too high), holes around the float needle (in the carb itself) has been enlarged and has 4 holes instead of 2 to minimise the chance of the needle getting stuck.

So seems pretty good all round.