Sat Dec 25, 2021 5:22 am

Ossessionato
2007 Stella 225
Joined: 02 Nov 2019
Posts: 2684
Location: Rochester, Minnesota
 
Ossessionato
2007 Stella 225
Joined: 02 Nov 2019
Posts: 2684
Location: Rochester, Minnesota
Sat Dec 25, 2021 5:22 am linkquote
I have a 2007 LML motor and a Set of P200 motor pre EFLcases. Going to move as much over as possible from LML cases.


Added this link as it's pertinent.

EFL driveshaft into early PX200 cases

Last edited by Christopher_55934 on Fri Jun 24, 2022 2:56 am; edited 1 time in total
Sat Dec 25, 2021 9:20 am

Molto Verboso
GL, PK, PE200 with hack, Sears Rust Badge
Joined: 24 Apr 2012
Posts: 1298
Location: Deep in the heart of Texas
 
Molto Verboso
GL, PK, PE200 with hack, Sears Rust Badge
Joined: 24 Apr 2012
Posts: 1298
Location: Deep in the heart of Texas
Sat Dec 25, 2021 9:20 am linkquote
Yes but must use every bit from the LML....ALL or NONE....clutch can be whatever you like that fits the cush drive.
Sat Dec 25, 2021 9:24 am

Ossessionato
2007 Stella 225
Joined: 02 Nov 2019
Posts: 2684
Location: Rochester, Minnesota
 
Ossessionato
2007 Stella 225
Joined: 02 Nov 2019
Posts: 2684
Location: Rochester, Minnesota
Sat Dec 25, 2021 9:24 am linkquote
rowdyc wrote:
Yes but must use every bit from the LML....ALL or NONE....clutch can be whatever you like that fits the cush drive.
Thank you, I was thinking everything, including the cosa clutch.
Sat Dec 25, 2021 9:47 am

Lucky
76 Sprint V, 63 GL, 62 VBB, 05 Stella, 66 Smallstate, 08 Stella (for now)
Joined: 16 Jun 2011
Posts: 5990
Location: Nashville
 
Lucky
76 Sprint V, 63 GL, 62 VBB, 05 Stella, 66 Smallstate, 08 Stella (for now)
Joined: 16 Jun 2011
Posts: 5990
Location: Nashville
Sat Dec 25, 2021 9:47 am linkquote
I did this swap in my P200 motor a while back. It's a definite improvement.
Sat Dec 25, 2021 10:41 am

Addicted
1974 Rally 200, 1974 Rally 200 with sidecar, Vespacross bike
Joined: 09 Apr 2009
Posts: 595
Location: Atlanta
 
Addicted
1974 Rally 200, 1974 Rally 200 with sidecar, Vespacross bike
Joined: 09 Apr 2009
Posts: 595
Location: Atlanta
Sat Dec 25, 2021 10:41 am linkquote
You need to use the P200 layshaft. The diameter is different on the flyside of the case between LML/PX/EFL and P200-pre-EFL.
Sat Dec 25, 2021 9:54 pm

Molto Verboso
71' Sprint Veloce , 05' Vespa PX150, 1978 P200E
Joined: 04 Jul 2011
Posts: 1314
Location: Tucson, AZ
 
Molto Verboso
71' Sprint Veloce , 05' Vespa PX150, 1978 P200E
Joined: 04 Jul 2011
Posts: 1314
Location: Tucson, AZ
Sat Dec 25, 2021 9:54 pm linkquote
chandlerman wrote:
I did this swap in my P200 motor a while back. It's a definite improvement.
Is an improvement in what way? I am not doubting what you are saying, I am just curious. This week I put my hardly uses LML engine with less than 300 miles on it on my Sprint veloce. The flywheel is a 3100grams but the engine is so quiet, so smooth and it idles so well.
The gearing is very short compared to the 200cc engines but I guess it could be a good thing because it feels very peppy.
Sun Dec 26, 2021 5:20 am

Ossessionato
2007 Stella 225
Joined: 02 Nov 2019
Posts: 2684
Location: Rochester, Minnesota
 
Ossessionato
2007 Stella 225
Joined: 02 Nov 2019
Posts: 2684
Location: Rochester, Minnesota
Sun Dec 26, 2021 5:20 am linkquote
scooterist wrote:
Is an improvement in what way? I am not doubting what you are saying, I am just curious. This week I put my hardly uses LML engine with less than 300 miles on it on my Sprint veloce. The flywheel is a 3100grams but the engine is so quiet, so smooth and it idles so well.
The gearing is very short compared to the 200cc engines but I guess it could be a good thing because it feels very peppy.
If gearing is to short you could go up a tooth size. Do you have 10" tires?
Sun Dec 26, 2021 6:52 am

Lucky
76 Sprint V, 63 GL, 62 VBB, 05 Stella, 66 Smallstate, 08 Stella (for now)
Joined: 16 Jun 2011
Posts: 5990
Location: Nashville
 
Lucky
76 Sprint V, 63 GL, 62 VBB, 05 Stella, 66 Smallstate, 08 Stella (for now)
Joined: 16 Jun 2011
Posts: 5990
Location: Nashville
Sun Dec 26, 2021 6:52 am linkquote
scooterist wrote:
Is an improvement in what way? I am not doubting what you are saying, I am just curious. This week I put my hardly uses LML engine with less than 300 miles on it on my Sprint veloce. The flywheel is a 3100grams but the engine is so quiet, so smooth and it idles so well.
The gearing is very short compared to the 200cc engines but I guess it could be a good thing because it feels very peppy.
In my case, the benefits were two-fold. First, I had problems with it slipping out of gear under heavy acceleration, and second I had problems with "missing" second. Swapping in the LML fixed both of those issues. I already had a 65t primary and kept the 23t clutch, so the gearing isn't too short, either.
Sun Dec 26, 2021 7:31 pm

Molto Verboso
71' Sprint Veloce , 05' Vespa PX150, 1978 P200E
Joined: 04 Jul 2011
Posts: 1314
Location: Tucson, AZ
 
Molto Verboso
71' Sprint Veloce , 05' Vespa PX150, 1978 P200E
Joined: 04 Jul 2011
Posts: 1314
Location: Tucson, AZ
Sun Dec 26, 2021 7:31 pm linkquote
Christopher_55934 wrote:
If gearing is to short you could go up a tooth size. Do you have 10" tires?
Yes, I am on a 10" wheel. I am leaving the gearing as is, I use the scooter mainly in town and I am keeping the engine stockfish for a while.
⬆️    About 6 months elapsed between posts    ⬇️
Thu Jun 23, 2022 6:06 pm

Ossessionato
2007 Stella 225
Joined: 02 Nov 2019
Posts: 2684
Location: Rochester, Minnesota
 
Ossessionato
2007 Stella 225
Joined: 02 Nov 2019
Posts: 2684
Location: Rochester, Minnesota
Thu Jun 23, 2022 6:06 pm linkquote
Hopefully I can try this out over winter, have a set of p200 cases on the way.

Will a P150 crankshaft fit a p200 case? Don't care about rotary valve changes, will be reed valve.
Fri Jun 24, 2022 2:52 am

Ossessionato
2007 Stella 225
Joined: 02 Nov 2019
Posts: 2684
Location: Rochester, Minnesota
 
Ossessionato
2007 Stella 225
Joined: 02 Nov 2019
Posts: 2684
Location: Rochester, Minnesota
Fri Jun 24, 2022 2:52 am linkquote
Mattgyver wrote:
You need to use the P200 layshaft. The diameter is different on the flyside of the case between LML/PX/EFL and P200-pre-EFL.
Not familiar enough with these cases yet, could someone use a different bearing? I can't remember what is there.
Fri Jun 24, 2022 8:37 am

Lucky
76 Sprint V, 63 GL, 62 VBB, 05 Stella, 66 Smallstate, 08 Stella (for now)
Joined: 16 Jun 2011
Posts: 5990
Location: Nashville
 
Lucky
76 Sprint V, 63 GL, 62 VBB, 05 Stella, 66 Smallstate, 08 Stella (for now)
Joined: 16 Jun 2011
Posts: 5990
Location: Nashville
Fri Jun 24, 2022 8:37 am linkquote
Christopher_55934 wrote:
Will a P150 crankshaft fit a p200 case? Don't care about rotary valve changes, will be reed valve.
Nope. The P150 crankshaft is a 105mm conn rod and the P200 needs a 110mm rod.
Fri Jun 24, 2022 8:52 am

Ossessionato
2007 Stella 225
Joined: 02 Nov 2019
Posts: 2684
Location: Rochester, Minnesota
 
Ossessionato
2007 Stella 225
Joined: 02 Nov 2019
Posts: 2684
Location: Rochester, Minnesota
Fri Jun 24, 2022 8:52 am linkquote
chandlerman wrote:
Nope. The P150 crankshaft is a 105mm conn rod and the P200 needs a 110mm rod.
Forgot about that, I'll have to source a 62mm crankshaft I guess, darn. I'll have to open up cases to fit crankshaft. Hmm a 62mm, rotary valve P200, I bet it would have some torque. Heck squish would be down to sub 1mm without any machine work. I'll have to see how bad rotary valve is, I know it has a half reed ectomy, but you have to take some off rotary valve for a 62mm crankshaft.
Fri Jun 24, 2022 9:40 am

Addicted
1974 Rally 200, 1974 Rally 200 with sidecar, Vespacross bike
Joined: 09 Apr 2009
Posts: 595
Location: Atlanta
 
Addicted
1974 Rally 200, 1974 Rally 200 with sidecar, Vespacross bike
Joined: 09 Apr 2009
Posts: 595
Location: Atlanta
Fri Jun 24, 2022 9:40 am linkquote
Christopher_55934 wrote:
Not familiar enough with these cases yet, could someone use a different bearing? I can't remember what is there.
It's the diameter of the steel cup in the engine case on the flyside that is the problem.
https://www.scootermercato.com/Scooter-Parts/Cush-Drive/111715

It's not an expensive item.
Fri Jun 24, 2022 12:02 pm

Ossessionato
2007 Stella 225
Joined: 02 Nov 2019
Posts: 2684
Location: Rochester, Minnesota
 
Ossessionato
2007 Stella 225
Joined: 02 Nov 2019
Posts: 2684
Location: Rochester, Minnesota
Fri Jun 24, 2022 12:02 pm linkquote
Mattgyver wrote:
It's the diameter of the steel cup in the engine case on the flyside that is the problem.
https://www.scootermercato.com/Scooter-Parts/Cush-Drive/111715

It's not an expensive item.
Engine, Spindle, Cush Drive, VSX - that I understand picture helped. One end is needle bearings?
Sat Jun 25, 2022 2:15 am

Addicted
1974 Rally 200, 1974 Rally 200 with sidecar, Vespacross bike
Joined: 09 Apr 2009
Posts: 595
Location: Atlanta
 
Addicted
1974 Rally 200, 1974 Rally 200 with sidecar, Vespacross bike
Joined: 09 Apr 2009
Posts: 595
Location: Atlanta
Sat Jun 25, 2022 2:15 am linkquote
The part that is the problem is the very end of the shaft. It rests in a steel cup that is pressed into the engine flyside case. On EFL engines like PX/Stella the cup is larger so the end of that shaft is larger. On P200 the cup is smaller so the shaft is smaller. The needle bearings used on them are the same on both.
Sat Jun 25, 2022 4:37 am

Lucky
76 Sprint V, 63 GL, 62 VBB, 05 Stella, 66 Smallstate, 08 Stella (for now)
Joined: 16 Jun 2011
Posts: 5990
Location: Nashville
 
Lucky
76 Sprint V, 63 GL, 62 VBB, 05 Stella, 66 Smallstate, 08 Stella (for now)
Joined: 16 Jun 2011
Posts: 5990
Location: Nashville
Sat Jun 25, 2022 4:37 am linkquote
The fact they use a bushing and not a bearing for the fly side of the primary always blows my mind a little. I mean, it seems to work, but it's one of those things that, whenever I think about it, I think, "This *shouldn't* work."
Sat Jun 25, 2022 5:01 am

Addicted
1974 Rally 200, 1974 Rally 200 with sidecar, Vespacross bike
Joined: 09 Apr 2009
Posts: 595
Location: Atlanta
 
Addicted
1974 Rally 200, 1974 Rally 200 with sidecar, Vespacross bike
Joined: 09 Apr 2009
Posts: 595
Location: Atlanta
Sat Jun 25, 2022 5:01 am linkquote
The spindle doesn't spin. The cushdrive (tree) spins around the spindle and has bearings on both sides, roller on clutchside and needle bearings on flyside.
Sat Jun 25, 2022 5:08 am

Lucky
76 Sprint V, 63 GL, 62 VBB, 05 Stella, 66 Smallstate, 08 Stella (for now)
Joined: 16 Jun 2011
Posts: 5990
Location: Nashville
 
Lucky
76 Sprint V, 63 GL, 62 VBB, 05 Stella, 66 Smallstate, 08 Stella (for now)
Joined: 16 Jun 2011
Posts: 5990
Location: Nashville
Sat Jun 25, 2022 5:08 am linkquote
Mattgyver wrote:
The spindle doesn't spin. The cushdrive (tree) spins around the spindle and has bearings on both sides, roller on clutchside and needle bearings on flyside.
Doh. Forgot about that.

Mental note: Drink coffee *before* posting
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