Modern Vespa

Well I have managed to get from London to Australia to spend 3 weeks with family. My dad had a 1925 Fiat he has never finished so am going to help him try and move that along while I am here.

I have the engine from my et3 which I started to try and pull apart way back in about 2007 and then moved house and then moved countries so it has sat there ever since. While I am here I am thinking of doing a little work on it in between the vintage fiat.

I have not lived in Melbourne for more than 25 years now. Can anybody recommend a Vespa shop here in Melbourne , I know Vespa house but they are closed over the summer. I need to get a flywheel and clutch puller to get the dismantling started.


Paul

Try GPS Imports. They're in Castlemaine and always post quickly.

Ok thanks have contacted them.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fiat_509

Is this the Fiat?

No it's one of these.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fiat_501

Ok GPS Imports have dispatched my order pretty quick. Will get the tools I need in a few days.

I got the clutch cover off. The last time this bike was ridden was in 2002 and I remember it's clutch being pretty sloppy.

The old clutch plates look to be kind of shot.

Where in Melbourne are you?

I'm away till the end of the week, but prob have any other tool you need.

We are in Kew. Will pm you once a bit further down the process.

With a username of gt6mk3 I assume you are into Triumph Gt6. When I get back to London I am going to try and buy one in time for summer trips covid willing.

yikes. that's toast!

I'd just go ahead and order up all the soft parts for a rebuild now.

Thanks Greasy


How far would you go to?

Things like bearings, seals, o-rings, clutch plates, woodruff keys are obvious. Are things like rebuilding the primary drive, replacing all the circlips, kickstart springs, shims and spacers , piston rings etc better done because they are cheap to do.

I managed to get most of the engine apart yesterday, was much faster than I expected.

I have a few questions now:

1. how do I tell if I have too much side play in the crank, I can just fit a 0.006 feeler guage between the side of the crank and the conrod, I cant find anywhere what the tolerance is

2.how do you get the remnant race of the flywheel side bearing out, is that a special puller? Same goes for the driveshaft flywheel side bearing and the christmas tree.

3.stator plate and flywheel - these were weak when the bike ran, I can get a brand new stator and keep the bike at 6V and use the old flywheel or convert it to 12V with a PK conversion or one of the SIP VAPE kits - which one is the best approach

4. The cylinder has scratches but can it simply be honed ?



Many thanks

Paul

I have made further progress and have the cases ready for vapor blasting now.

I got a kit of bearing extractors so managed to remove the flywheel side bearing and the driveshaft roller bearing out. I got a little stuck trying to get the pin out of the gear shift out but managed eventually.

I had forgotten what parts I had bought when I first pulled it apart. I found a set of clauss studios polyurethane engine mounts in my box of goodies.

I am still trying to work out whether to use a 12V PK conversion flywheel kit or replace the 6V stator only.

I'd get pretty in-depth given how long it's sat and what I can see. yeah, bearings, seals, o-rings, corks (and steels if they're roached), keys, tab washers. the primary drive is subjective. you can do it now and it's easier, or if you feel it's okay just let it ride. I wouldn't worry about circlips, the K/S main spring, would do the K/S gear and spring, as well as new buffers while it's open, and grab shims. obviously, have a look at the gears and cross. 1- you should be fine as long as it's not totally sloppy and wiggle waggling around in there.

2- looks like you got it!

3- if the wheel is okay, I'd just rewire the stator and roll it 6V. if you really want 12V you could go with a PK conversion or just nab euro stator and sock that in with a regulator-- to note, I *think* this will work, I'm not 100%. but you don't need to spend vape $$ to get 12V EI

4- I'd check the ring end gap and piston side clearance and if good, then just a quick hone and ship it. rings if you really wanted to. but 1000% new circlips for the gudgeon pin.

Thanks Greasy again

Probably easiest to go with new stock stator. I got the parts back from the vapor blaster today they look good. My spare time is up for now to work on it, will all the parts and get back to putting together in April when I am back.

Also made some progress on my Dads FIAT 501 ..

A little update on progress, I am back in the UK and have got pretty much all the spares for the engine rebuild. The clutch parts were all pretty much destroyed so new primary basket and plates etc, bearings, stator, seals etc. Decided on replacing the crank as I couldn't find somebody in Melbourne to check the original for true.

I have a few last questions in prep for the trip back in a month or so;

Gears

There was a little bit of clutch plate shard stuck on the christmas tree gear which has caused a small nick on the 2nd gear cog of the gearbox. You can just see the regular bit of wear on the second cog from the bottom in the gear box picture below (4 nicks on the teeth to the front of picture you have to zoom in). The damage looks to be minor to me, is it something I can leave or easier to replace to avoid a PTA later?


Also I measured the play in the gears by putting a single feeler gauge between the shim and the top cog on one side to get about 0.769 mm so have got a selection of 1.2 and 1.3mm shims. Is that an accurate measurement or should I have have measured with a feeler gauge on both sides of the shaft?

Rebuild Grease & Lube

What grease do people use for putting the engines back together. SIP seem to use a white grease on the bearings in the gearbox and a general one elsewhere. I assume for the flywheel bearing you just use a bit of 2T oil.

Little difficult to confirm the damage to the tooth youre talking about. I think i see a rectangle stamped into the side of one of the teeth. If you can, send a zoomed in pic and see what the collective says. Did you notice a constant ticking when you last rode it, regardless of what gear you were in? If you can't wait, go to your local scooter shop and ask them or just replace. Better to be safe and patient.

Definitely go buy another pair of feeler gauges and use two together when measuring. There's lots of spinning/wear and sometimes its not symmetrical. Going off of memory I think final shim gap should be .15-.4mm, reading the same on both feelers.

As far as assembly grease, I just use a light duty all purpose grease. Something that will be eventually absorbed into the gear oil. Dont have a favorite brand, use what you have. Just no trailer grease

when you say no trailer grease do you mean wheel bearing grease? if so, why?

concur on all the rest: two feelers, shim 1.5~.5 and a better pic of the damage.

Its a long time since it was ridden (probably 2001 or earlier) so I don't remember what the gearbox sounded like. It was a pretty worn engine by the time I pulled the bike apart and it had sat unridden for 2-3 years, crank bearings didn't sound too good and clutch was slipping badly, if it did tick I may not have heard it.

The engine and bike are in Australia and I am in UK so cant do more photos right now, have tried to crop the photo I have to zoom in. Also tried another image of the cogs I had (sorry for bad photo its part of a much larger photo). I can just see a faint dip in some of the teeth in top left quadrant.

Guess you could use it. Nothing wrong with it. There's just lighter stuff on the market.

yeah man, unless that's shiny from flash (which it does not appear to be) those are roached.

new gearbox time.

how's the shaft look?

here is the shaft..

Whole gearbox or just a few of them?

I was just asking in case there was some specific reason not to; hadn't heard of any but was curious. I have like three tubs of bell ray waterproof that just seem to A- take for-ev-errr to go through and B- seem to be multiplying when I leave them alone in the cabinet.

but I use it a lot because it's super sticky and great for keeping stuff in place!

that's for showing me your shaft...

all kidding aside, I'd do a whole new set those looks super suspect and if that is indeed wear you need new. so just put in for a whole setup. bonus is that you can get a short 4th or a DRT long 3rd tree!

the shaft has some concerning score marks where the bearings and seals ride at the hub side. on the gear side it appears where 1st and 2nd ride are scored or galled as well. it might just be shmutz, but it looks damaged to me. is that a cut on the shaft below the base of the cross? of just some junk?

if you have any better or close up pics we could investigate a little further, but it seems to me that you're in the boat for a new gear box assembly.

Perfect. You have enough for 6,000 rebuilds. Might be a little conservative on that number though.

I aim to please !!

Ok will get somebody to get me some better photos.

Thanks for your help again. It will take a while to get photos and I think I want the motor to be right.

so does that mean I need for a gearbox rebuild:

Driveshaft - a PK one I assume with m16 thread, the m14 version it has is not available. Either the piaggio ones NOS from India or CIF.

PK M16 driveshaft nut, and basket.

Gear cogs. - CIF do a set for 4 speed small frames are these any good or do I buy a mix of piaggio, CIF and unbranded as individual cogs?

I have a brand new shift cross already does that need to change with the change of parts?

Another pair of 1mm shims for driveshaft

Inputshaft. - you mentioned the DRT with different gearing. What is the benefit of the different gearing. For longer runs I have a rally 200 and 2 x GTS.

An update on the Et3

When we moved the UK we had some shippers move the bikes to Melbourne, they managed to drop the box with the restored ET3 frame in it on its end and crush the horncast. Really was a PTA as the paint and body repairs had cost a bomb but was moving countries so never sorted it out.

My brother in law took the transit damaged ET3 body off to Joe the Vespa guy in Melbourne for me. He seems to have done a good job. These are the before and afters of the work, manged to get the shape back OK I think.

Also am trying to decide on a standard input shaft vs the DRT(or VMC) Short 4th Gear. Is the DRT short 4th one of those simple to do updates that is a no brainer or really only worth it if putting on a cylinder kit and performance exhaust? The bike will be stock otherwise.

Just a simple swap. Pop the old one out, push the new one in and viola! I will say, if you go with DRT parts, make sure you buy the DRT woodruff key, the DRT washers etc. etc. I had fitment issues years ago mixing and matching stock with DRT.

Sorry I cant tell you more on driveshafts. Ive never come across roached smallframe ones yet.

Thanks have opted for the DRT Short 4th Gear input shaft. Now looking forward to putting it all back together in April.

excellent choice, I really liked that as an improvement

Many years ago I swapped in a DRT short 4th in my stock PK125XL. That short 4th was beneficial to me since I mostly ride in hilly terrain. I still had a top speed of over 55mph.

I just made the same swap on my smallie: drt short 4th, and all new gears 1-4. Mated with a Polini 130 and other goodies. I have yet to put any real miles on it, but so far its a good switch from the old 3speed

Greetings all, I am back in Melbourne again but this time with a few kilos of engine parts that came with me in my luggage.

It turns out its probably easier to list what is being re-used rather than list the new parts (casings, barrel, piston, head and clutch and gear change mechanisms are from original engine). I am looking forward to get this engine re-built.

Have started the rebuild with the driveshaft. The first step was to try and get the gear selector ball bearings and spring installed. This I have read is usually a nightmare, with bearings flying around the workshop. I made a simple tool which was 2 bits of polyeurethane cut to the size of the slot in the driveshaft, I drilled a shallow dimple into one of then. It was then fairly easy to compress the spring and bearings into the slot. I slid the selector onto the driveshaft by displacing the 2 bits of polyeurethane and voila much easier than I expected.


That was the easy bit, it took a lot of fiddling to get the right setup of the gear cluster. I followed scooter help here:
https://www.scooterhelp.com/tips/engine/shift.cross.sf.vespa.html which was really useful. The new circlips I was using were too wide so didn't seat properly, there no end play on the gear cluster at all. I had to re-use the old circlips in the end but it took a lot of fiddling to get there.

Have now started to get the bearings installed in the cases. Following Greasy's advice I have put the bearings in the freezer and heated the cases with a heat gun and they went in well.

Nice work.
I would love to find an ET3 one day.

The engine is going back together OK. Managed to get the bearings all in, primary drive, kickstart and 1st attempt at the driveshaft.

I bought one of the adapter kits from SIP (https://www.sip-scootershop.com/en/product/adaptor-kit-sip-tool-assembly-output-shaft-crankshaft_18119100?q=tool) for the crankshaft puller tool. Using it sheered the adapter thread part off from its body when pulling the driveshaft through its bearing. It looks like they drilled too deeply so there was only 1mm of metal thickness where the thread connected to the body. So I need a plan B to get it seated properly in the bearing.

Question on gaskets - to goo or not to goo? What is the consensus on the use of gasket goo with gaskets? I have an amarid gasket set and SIP videos say to just use grease on them while lots of other rebuild videos have people applying gasket goo to the case faces and then then gaskets, I was wondering what is the right way to go ?

Did you pull the shift dog linkage and change the o ring?

Anything smallframe I goop every gasket and drain bolt washers. Large frame I do the lower half of the cases, cylinder base and drain bolts. Helps with the drips after riding.

Yes new o rings on shift linkage and kickstart, and clutch lever once I can work out where it goes.

So one vote for gasket goo.

2 more questions from me:

Will this type of gasket sealant do the job?

https://www.repco.com.au/en/car-care-panel/adhesives-sealants/gasket-cements/permatex-form-a-gasket-no-2-sealant-85g-px80016/p/A9532797

It says it's a non hardening gasket sealant.


Secondly I am probably going to have a wait a year before i am back again and am able to start the engine up. How should I store the engine wrt oils etc. Should I keep the clutch in a bag of oil out of the engine and install it when I am to use it and do I keep the gearbox dry or put some oil in.

I use a RTV silicone gasket maker. Not loyal to any brand. Just something easy to work with, clean and gasoline/ temperature tolerant for its use. Permatex Motoseal ultra grey and the red RTV is open in my garage at the moment.

I'd leave the gearbox dry, clutch assembled but in a bag, cylinder well oiled. Put it all in a plastic tub with a lid on it and set aside till you return.

Haha, very nice. That looks a lot like mine. Note the fine craftsmanship of the kickstart cutout on the vertical there.

I hadn't thought of that!! Very nice, yours is finer craftsmanship than mine. I only vaguely measured mine, have aded a metal bracket for the rear engine mount now.

Also the local shop have the RTV silicone make a gasket tubes so will get one one the morning.