Modern Vespa

my supertech has developed the feeling of the bearings having formed a notch with the handle bars straight.

I sort of like this as it means it stays straight even when I remove my hands

suspicion is that I've smacked into too many potholes bottoming out the front suspension and ridden on too much corrugated / washboard gravel roads at too much speed that it's pounded this notch into the bearings.

it's also been suggested that it's the bearings tightening up ... but if so why would this only have the notch feeling when straight?


note: this is not wear on the front tire as replacing it didn't change anything and also it doesn't change with pressure.


edit: 25,000km / 2 years & 3 months

I was told that Piaggio assemblers are stingy with the grease, and around 30,000 miles is rebuild time. I have new bearings on order but my headset still feels smooth. I've rebuilt my fair share of headsets.

open it up and have a look see.

they're either loosey-goosey or tight as balls or wasted.

if the fork was bent it would steer funny.

saw Robot's video recently doing this with an ET(?). I didn't relish the thought ... if so why does it want to go straight so much? like wouldn't tight be felt all the way through turning the bars? like mashed / notched? this is my guess, but I ain't no expert

it sucks, but if it's just the top it's really not all that bad. just don't force anything and bring a good magnetic tip screwdriver to the party so you don't lose any fasteners.

probably because there's a dead spot. hopefully it's just the bearings and not the race!

yeah, mashed, notched, waxed, hammered ass, roached, tits up, the whole line.

you can guess all you want, you won't know until you open it.

You probably do have a notch - but although it 'feels' like it wants to go straight, you won't be able to at slow speed. In places where you're allowed to filter, or 'lane split' this will immediately become noticeable! The other effect is a feeling of wandering steering when negotiating high-speed curves.

It probably isn't quite the same sort of notch that you might get on other bikes that have tapered roller bearings at the bottom of the steering column as the GTS has ball bearings. Regardless, it's a safety no-no, and would be an immediate MOT failure in the UK. So work up to replacing them. It's not the most pleasant task on the GTS - but it is doable under that shade tree.

What Jim says! And it's actually not a bad job to do if you study up on it first. The right tools help too. If you've done other fork bearings on other bikes it's not too different on the GTS. Just take your time. Personally I'd replace balls and cups completely while you have everything apart.

It's been like this for months (thousands of kms) and it still happily does everything: high speed, low speed, etc. Pretty much every day i ride through a few hairpins above the speed limit. It's not causing problems but i know it really should be fixed

I'm also due for a valve check (outside of my skill level) and an oil change. pondering if to get this done at the same time.

if you've got the gold doubloons why not splash the pot. that's easy work for a tech and you'd have your bike back with the quickness.

Yeah, if you are not used to doing this sort of stuff then a dealer will get it done very quickly for you. Might be the best bet if you don't have time to learn how to do these jobs at the moment. I suspect if you do have the time you'd ace them easily enough especially if you study up on them first and get the tools needed. Good luck whichever way you go!

Well it happened at last, they're f'd 😭

Now that they've died, which parts should be ordered for replacing before disassembly? Just the bearings (top + bottom) or also some nuts, washers, covers, seals or something?

ideally, just the bearings themselves. the races can become worn or damaged from running bad bearings too long and placing new bearings on there will fix it momentarily and then just wipe out with the quickness.

that being said, it's usually the top that goes and gets notchy but I'd order both the top and bottom.

throw in some crush washers for the brake line and maybe a banjo bolt as a just in case?

can you pull the top apart just to have a look see and assess the situation before hand, to see if you should order races as well?

Here's a pretty good headset replacement video on an older GTS, my biggest concern would be not being able to bleed the ABS brakes after.
And, too bad there isn't a Chris King headset replacement option

The issue with diagnosing the problem is that you have to do a lot of the hard part that you would do when you replace the bearings, so might as well have at it all at once. You can take off the headset, loosen the nut that holds the bearings, turn the upper bearing abut 45 degrees, grease the heck out of it, and put grease into the lower bearing, which you might also be able to turn, then button it back up and buy yourself some time. But if it still acts up, you are definitely in the market for bearings and races. There are tools that make it easy to punch out the races and install new ones. I would recommend trying to line some up before you even take the bike apart. There are at least a couple dozen people in Australia and some of them own Vespas. There is bound to be one or two who both own the tools and don't know you well enough to steer clear , so you might be able to locate someone who will lend you the tools. They aren't worth buying because you will probably do this once. You can do it without the tools, but you will spend a lot of time taking the headset off and tightening the nut as the races seat fully. Punching the old races out doesn't require the official race puncher, and yhou might be able to pound them out with a longish screwdriver or piece of rebar that you've ground flat at the end, but setting the races really does require the big thing with a long screw through the middle. The bearings are the same ones Piaggio was using on scooters in the 50s, so someone who had a Vespa shop sixty years ago might still have the tools.
The other big PITA is routing the brake line and speedometer cable correctly when it all goes back together.

thanks for the speedy advice guys. I've got the bike booked on the ferry to tasmania in a few weeks so gotta fix it soon.

more details:

leaving the city in the morning the steering felt my normal. hopped on the freeway for 100km or so to get out into the country and when I took the exit I knew something was wrong. struggled on for a bit trying to work out if it was just the new tire I had stuck on yesterday or all the luggage that I had that was making it just handle differently (I was hopeful as the sun was shining).

I pulled over and wiggled the handlebars - very stiff. turn full left/right several times and heard a squeak/crunch noise and they then became loose. that ain't right. crossed my fingers and rode on 10km and they had become bad again. wiggle again and ok. did this a few times before giving up and heading home.

when wiggling I'm pretty sure there was sometimes a squeak from the lower. tried listing at the upper and lower a bit to see if I could confirm - not really confident.

still not sure that it's the bearings and not just something that has tightened up and can be loosened ...


I'll watch that video then probably see if I can take the headset off etc this weekend and have a sticky beak. I don't have a garage etc, just a front porch where I do all my work - not a great place or well resourced. But good chance I'll take it to the shop and have them replace both bearings and the races by the sound of it.

a little more detail:

now that I'm home again I've just jacked the front up and it's not floppy like it when new. but also not stiff either. no squeaks right now when jacked or not, but I did hear it a few times earlier, think even once or twice while riding. Roundabouts were extremely horrible feeling and almost scary

think I'll just feel sad for the arvo and investigate tomorrow

Try to push the frint wheel back and forth with weight holding the back tire down. Is there play?

no matter what I do I can't find any free play.

been watching videos:

do I really need the special tool for the lock nut and race (think that's the names Robot used)? Or is it ok to use a screwdriver in the slots and tap with a hammer? Because I think checking the top is within my skills and could maybe investigate on the weekend (it's either that or do the gardening). But the lower bearing - nope nope nope, not any chance I'll do that.


And Greasy, you say it's usually the top that goes bad, seems nonintuitive to me? I suspect any damage I've done is by hitting potholes and corrugations / washboard too much and too fast and too often which I would have expected to smacked the bottom bearings?

to motovista's point, just doing the bearings is no big deal but you're basically "in service position" to do the races. however, it's an ugly undertaking for somebody that doesn't have the work space or tooling. you can fake the top race, but the bottom is a pain.

while the bottom race does take a beating, the diameter of the balls are quite a bit bigger than the top. you can literally bend the top bearing and cage like a taco, so just a bit of rust or gunk in there really gums up the works.

it's worth the investimagation to have a look see if it's just mangled and you can get away with popping in a new one.

can you get away with using the proper tool on the lock nuts? sure. but if you're gonna go that route order up new top race and lock nut in case you bork up the bits going at 'em with a screwdriver and hammer.

ETA: that crunch/squeak in conjunction with hard steering may be something that's come loose behind the glovebox and is hanging up: control cables, wiring, brake hose so check that out. and also, I know it'll sound crazy, but make sure your handlebar covers are fouling on the glovebox. sometimes they get loose and bottom will touch the top of the g'box at certain points of the steering arc.

well the top does look bad when I take a peak under cover (haven't yet unbolted the bars). There was a lot of dirt / gunk, some wiped away in this photo. Could see plenty of metal sparkles and a couple of missing balls at different points around. Think I saw some actual metal pieces before I wiped away the gunk. I wonder about the condition of the bottom ...

here's a pic of one of the missing

PS, does't appear to be any cables binding

yeah man, those are roached.

you could just order the bearing and hope for the best. but if you're feeling frisky I'd blow it all apart and see how bad it is that way you can make a battle plan.

out of sight, out of mind on the bottom....

Mashed cage like potato and missing balls

Btw, that dust cover is pretty useless (and I hope I didn't stretch it too much)

When you replace the bearings, and the races if needed, you'll be in the "major repair" club. I've done headset bearings on a Honda Helix, bearings and races on a Honda Hawk NTV650. A few Honda CBR900RR's, both races and bearings. And several others along the way. Ironically the worse one was a Yamaha Zuma, 1998 vintage. The races kicked my race removing tools butt! The bottom was the worst! But once done it steered so lovely!

Park tools makes a race punch for bicycles but I've used it on most all of my headset overhauls. Your'e kinda lucky, I didn't have YouTube back in the day. All was done out of a paper service manual.

As mentioned above all my work is done on my front porch so there's no chance of me being able to remove the fork to do the bottom without a lift or bench. I'm even struggling to undo the bolt holding the handlebars to the column. Am about to reassemble and leave this for the professionals.

do you have a curb on the front porch? a small drop off?

position the front wheel right at the edge chock up the bottom of the bike like you're going to take off the front tire. if remove the wheel and you should have enough runway to get the fork out if you have a few inches of additional drop

Nope.

I appreciate the faith you seem to have in me but it feels like a few too many hurdles in this for me ...

I'd have to build a platform with some bricks stolen from the garden edging and build a ramp to get on to it.

Would have to probably use a mallet to belt the 17mm spanner to loosen the bolt to get the handle bars off as I can't get any bigger wrench onto it due to the meanest of the brake line.

Would have to borrow the handle bar tool from the shop or use a screwdriver and hammer.

Would have to disconnect the brake line from the ABS. And I don't want to get too much air there.

Would have to struggle with holding the fork while removing the races - might have to remove the guard from it and lay it on the ground and stick a foot on it.

Daunting.


A little for note: this is my only vehicle and use it for shopping and important things like carrying a case of beer home instead of buying a 6pack or two and walking.

take it in then. mustn't interrupt the flow of wobbly pops!

while it could be done, and I have done it on the ground it sucks super bad. even more so if you don't have the right tools for the job.

it's understandable to tap out on this one and take it to a pro.

Got the Park race punch and headset bearing race press as well as a ton of fittings, hope I never have to do this job but I'd be looking for a meter long industrial bolt for a bearing race press

I did this on my Big Beo a few months ago on the floor of my garage, after the notch developed after 14 years and 24k miles. It wasn't anywhere near as bad as I thought it would be. I probably dropped $100 on tools for the lower race stuff but easily saved $500 in labor.

The new bearings and races were $50 from Motovista's mart, and the largest expense was a set of bearing pressing discs from Amazon. Once you have the pressing discs, you don't need a huge bolt to squeeze the races back in - just a few feet of cheap threaded rod, and some nuts and washers. This was less than $15.

After several tries and some very bad swear words trying to get the lower race in straight, I ended up using half a can of freeze spray on it. This turned out to be a much better tool than the swear words and worked on the first try.

Getting the old races off the bottom of the triple tree did also require a propane torch and a Dremel. The dainty little articulated spanner wrench to get the upper bearing nuts tight is really not necessary. A few taps on a screwdriver worked fine.

I think my scoot was out of commission for three weeks on this project as I did a lot of other weekend maintenance in the vicinity since the triple tree was out (changed oil in the shocks, brake pad and rotor replacement, etc.). This was my first time doing most of this work and I can see why somebody depending on a single machine for transportation - and perhaps not so intrigued to figure out the details - would punt this to a shop. But the convenience will be expensive!

Sage words. The lower race is the hardest part.

Did my first set of scooter bearings on my '08 Majesty. Lower was a sonofab***h to get back in. Upper frame in that scoot is cast aluminum so it's a bastard to keep the race warm and expanded. Clean all the old grime off before heating with a torch, unless you like random fires in your frame. Get the biggest threaded rod that fits and multiple thick washers, I used 3/4" (19mm) rod.

Did it at my local scooter dealer. It was educational for both parties...I learned that they'd never swapped out steering bearings races before!

I throw them in the freezer the night before - same effect, less cost. If its still snug, heating the neck a bit helps, too.

I got it done last week at the shop. Now it's slippery and I'm getting used to it quickly. Would almost like a steering dampener as I'm not yet sure how it's going to handle bad unsealed roads ...

Anyway, was chatting to a friend and he made the comment that the nut might need slight adjusting after a little while as the bearings bed in. Thoughts?

funny how bad it can get and you just get accustomed to it and then when you have the new parts fitted it feels alien to you!

regarding the bearings, there's many different viewpoints on this. all I can say is sometimes they do, and sometimes they don't. that's why there's always a check at every service interval.

but now that you know what to look out for you can probably adjust them yourself. however if something is going to "slip" or "bed in" it's likely to happen in short order and you'll notice. if that does happen get it taken care of quickly.

It's not just the feel when riding that's changed.

Before the bearings completely failed - ie for the last year or so - when sitting on the lights I could rock the bike slightly back and forth without my hands on the handlebars (thrusting with my hips) and it would stay straight. But now when I rock it the steering quickly moves to the left, I remember my old gts did this movement to the left. Not saying it's an issue just an observation. Does seem to still keep straight when briefly taking my hands off while riding so all good anyway

Maybe with fresh bearings, the unloaded steering moves left due to the weight distribution of the vespa. Is that likely?

I think they are somewhat heavier on the drivers left of centerline.

it'd be mostly still loaded as I am sitting on it although my feet do take some of the weight as I balance with my feet half on the ground.