Tue May 24, 2022 4:34 am

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VSX, Stella 177, Stella 150, VNX1T, V9A1T, V9B1T
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Tue May 24, 2022 4:34 am linkquote
If unsure, just swap all the ignition elements. Use the p200 flywheel with the p200 stator and p200 cdi.
Tue May 24, 2022 7:55 am

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Tue May 24, 2022 7:55 am linkquote
I must admit that I have never understood the AC/DC mix on Vespas.

Looking at the wiring diagrams of the Stella and P200e, the wiring looks quite similar.

So a P engine with P stator wired to the Stella would be:

-Black to ground
-Red power to CDI
-Green power to CDI
- White-power to CDI
-Yellow to regulator to charge battery
-2nd yellow-?

This seems almost too simple. I'm assuming corresponding coils/wire colors have the same output.

Thanks
Tue May 24, 2022 8:05 am

Veni, Vidi, Posti
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Tue May 24, 2022 8:05 am linkquote
which coil / stator will you use? the stella I parted had the external coil separate from the CDI, you'd have to figure all that out.
Tue May 24, 2022 8:23 am

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1979 P150X, 1983 P200E, 1988 T5, 1995 PX200E, 2011 Yamaha Fazer 600 S2
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Tue May 24, 2022 8:23 am linkquote
Put the Stella stator on the 200. The 200 stator you have is the "double yellow" which is a whole different "beast" not compatible with your Stella harness. I'd also wire the stator directly to the CDI the 200 has and ditch the external / separate CDI / H.T. coil...
Tue May 24, 2022 2:25 pm

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Tue May 24, 2022 2:25 pm linkquote
SaFiS wrote:
Put the Stella stator on the 200. The 200 stator you have is the "double yellow" which is a whole different "beast" not compatible with your Stella harness. I'd also wire the stator directly to the CDI the 200 has and ditch the external / separate CDI / H.T. coil...
When I read your post, I thought…That makes it really complicated, but it doesn't.

3 stator wires would go into the CDI on the 200 engine. The other 2 wires would plug into the Stella harness as before, if I understand correctly. I would just have to change the connectors. I could just leave the Stella CDI in place. The only question I have is if the 200 flywheel would work with the Stella stator.


Left-Stella. Right -200

Thu May 26, 2022 6:16 am

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Thu May 26, 2022 6:16 am linkquote
Parts arrived today for the Stella spare engine build, with the exception of the piston rings.

I am definitely going to give the 200 engine a try in the Stella. It will get me back on the road and I can take my time with the rebuild.

I also wanted to get a sense of how the 2 engines perform on the butt dino. I have often read that kitted 150's outperform a stock 200, but I have always liked the bullet proof nature of stock engines.

I will pressure test it on the bench first. I think I have the wiring figured out, except that the 200 CDI has slots for 2 green wires. I am assuming 1 of the green wire slots is for a kill switch. Does the kill switch work by grounding out the CDI or does it interrupt the ground when pressed? I normally wouldn't worry about having one, but I will probably need it to pass inspection.



Thu May 26, 2022 6:23 am

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76 Sprint V, 63 GL, 62 VBB, 05 Stella, 66 Smallstate, 08 Stella (for now)
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Thu May 26, 2022 6:23 am linkquote
The kill switch grounds out the CDI, so you need it to stop the motor, but not to run it. That's why you see so many videos of people shocking themselves pulling the spark plug to kill motors running in a stand.

The P200 motor feels much different than a 150, both tuned and untuned. The 200 gearing is higher because of the increased torque from the displacement, with a lower power band, so you find yourself spending a lot more time in 3rd than 4th gear (or I do, anyway).

But the best way to experience it is definitely to ride it and see how they feel.
Thu May 26, 2022 7:04 am

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Thu May 26, 2022 7:04 am linkquote
I think I lifted the ground on that Stella coil, I can't remember though! Due to the TT regulator.

The P200 did feel like more torque but Stella was so much faster in my opinion. I cruised both with my wife and I on them and the Stella pulled it off really well! Although I guess the crank wasn't to happy about that.
Thu May 26, 2022 4:18 pm

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Thu May 26, 2022 4:18 pm linkquote
keaton85 wrote:
I think I lifted the ground on that Stella coil, I can't remember though! Due to the TT regulator.

The P200 did feel like more torque but Stella was so much faster in my opinion. I cruised both with my wife and I on them and the Stella pulled it off really well! Although I guess the crank wasn't to happy about that.
Going to check the crank when the engine comes apart at some point. A needle bearing dropped out of the wrist pin bearing when I took the piston out, but that might have been me. The crank doesn't seem to have any fore aft movement just giving a quick check. I will throw on blocks and give it a spin with dial indicator just out of curiosity one of these days.

Tried out the leakdown test on the 200. It's leaking out the bung I put in the exhaust but no where else, so I will have to improve my set up.

Figured I'd give it a try as I've never done one. Something that will come in handy in engine building.
Thu May 26, 2022 4:19 pm

Lucky
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Thu May 26, 2022 4:19 pm linkquote
I use radiator plugs on the exhaust. Those things fit TIGHT.
Thu May 26, 2022 4:24 pm

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Thu May 26, 2022 4:26 pm

Lucky
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Thu May 26, 2022 4:26 pm linkquote
Exactly like that. Just get the size you need and you're golden.
Thu May 26, 2022 4:28 pm

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Thu May 26, 2022 4:28 pm linkquote
chandlerman wrote:
Exactly like that. Just get the size you need and you're golden.
Thank you!
Mon May 30, 2022 6:06 am

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Mon May 30, 2022 6:06 am linkquote
Still trying to find the air leak in the 200. The radiator plug didn't work because the 200 exhaust stub has a metal ridge on the inside. I will have to find another way to seal the stub. It seems to be the only place where it's actually leaking.

Parts are in for the Stella engine rebuild and I was mulling over going with a different top end. Looking on the budget side as it's starting to add up.

I was looking at the VMC Super G. I would be running it with a 60mm mazz crank and keeping the 20/20 carb and 22t clutch cog. A 24/24 would probably be better but I doubt I could get it to work with the Stella reed block. I would hang on to the Polini kit for the vbb.
Mon May 30, 2022 6:09 am

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Mon May 30, 2022 6:09 am linkquote
If you open up the reed block completely (fiberglass reed, shave off the inside edges, cut out the center bar, bend down the stop) you can get the benefit of a 24/24.

If you do all that, you'll gain just over 20% (IIRC) more area, plus reduce the turbulence w/o the center bar.
Mon May 30, 2022 6:20 am

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Mon May 30, 2022 6:20 am linkquote
chandlerman wrote:
If you open up the reed block completely (fiberglass reed, shave off the inside edges, cut out the center bar, bend down the stop) you can get the benefit of a 24/24.

If you do all that, you'll gain just over 20% (IIRC) more area, plus reduce the turbulence w/o the center bar.
I wouldn't have considered that before, but I think it's within my skill level. I have Boyesen dual stage reeds, so I think they would work without the center bar. Realistically, the 24/24 is probably as large as I would need to go for what I'm doing.

Any thoughts on the vmc iron kit? I tend to prefer cast iron being old and a little set in my ways…
Mon May 30, 2022 6:25 am

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Mon May 30, 2022 6:25 am linkquote
Everything I know about the cast iron VMC, I've read about on teh Interwebs, but it seems to get good marks as value for money.

As to modifying the reed block, I followed blake7even's approach, as I documented in Porting 101.

The hardest part is getting over the permanence of doing it and diving in.
Mon May 30, 2022 6:26 am

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Mon May 30, 2022 6:26 am linkquote
orwell84 wrote:
I wouldn't have considered that before, but I think it's within my skill level. I have Boyesen dual stage reeds, so I think they would work without the center bar. Realistically, the 24/24 is probably as large as I would need to go for what I'm doing.

Any thoughts on the vmc iron kit? I tend to prefer cast iron being old and a little set in my ways…
I would advise against completely removing the center bar. Maybe leave a little stub sticking out on both ends to help prevent the reeds from being sucked into the block and breaking then getting sucked into the engine.

I've had this happen twice and each time it happens, the rubber sealing surface gets worn a bit which widens the opening further and leads to it happening easier again. My block that I widened was ruined from this. They are not easily available Reed blocks if yours does get worn down.

I still have plans to do a mold of my spare one and cast some resin blocks which I can then grind out the bar and if they get ruined, just cast a new replacement.
Mon May 30, 2022 8:48 am

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Mon May 30, 2022 8:48 am linkquote
I found the source of the leak on the 200. It seems to be leaking at the joint where the exhaust stub screws into the cylinder. It looks like it's threaded? Pics probably make more sense.





Mon May 30, 2022 8:59 am

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Mon May 30, 2022 8:59 am linkquote
Let me Ask.. was this a brand new stock 200 cylinder purchased from SIP?

I ordered two of them from sip and they both came with defects at the base of the cylinder where the exhaust stub screws all the way into the cylinder. There was a hole in the wall between the stud hole and the exhaust. First one I had replaced my sip. Second one came with same problem. I got a refund on it and ended up ordering one from scooter mercato and not using the ones from sip.

They are sitting on my shelf. First one I used as a grinding test to make sure I could widen the exhaust port as much as I wanted to without breaking into the stud holes (not counting their defect).

I even tried to bring this to sip attention after the first time to suggest maybe they should go through all their inventory of stock p200 cylinders to check for the defect and get rid of them. They didn't seem to care and never responded to my warnings about the issue. I imagine they have sent out a few more of these defective cylinders to unsuspecting customers.

Photos of the defect here:


Sticking a pick into the hole you can see it in the stud hole.



Dave at mercato said he had come across a similar bad batch when he ordered a bunch of stock as well and he had thrown them all out. He checked to make sure the one I ordered did not have the defect prior to shipping.

Last edited by swiss1939 on Mon May 30, 2022 9:08 am; edited 1 time in total
Mon May 30, 2022 9:07 am

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Mon May 30, 2022 9:07 am linkquote
swiss1939 wrote:
Let me Ask.. was this a brand new stock 200 cylinder purchased from SIP?

I ordered two of them from sip and they both came with defects at the base of the cylinder where the exhaust stub screws all the way into the cylinder. There was a hole in the wall between the stud hole and the exhaust. First one I had replaced my sip. Second one came with same problem. I got a refund on it and ended up ordering one from scooter mercato and not using the ones from sip.

They are sitting on my shelf. First one I used as a grinding test to make sure I could widen the exhaust port as much as I wanted to without breaking into the stud holes (not counting their defect).

I even tried to bring this to sip attention after the first time to suggest maybe they should go through all their inventory of stock p200 cylinders to check for the defect and get rid of them. They didn't seem to care and never responded to my warnings about the issue. I imagine they have sent out a few more of these defective cylinders to unsuspecting customers.

Photos of the defect here:


Sticking a pick into the hole you can see it in the stud hole.


I did run across your thread looking for an answer. I don't know where the cylinder came from. I assumed it was original. Sigh…still taking shit apart to find yet more broken shit and just buying more and more shit.
Mon May 30, 2022 10:53 am

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Mon May 30, 2022 10:53 am linkquote
On a positive note, I have learned how to do a pressure test and the tester I cobbled together actually works.

It's nice to know that the method worked and yielded definitive results. It will be useful in future engine building, for sure. It's not just the finished product but building the skill set along the way that's all part of the fun.

Yeah, and I'm just going to run the Polini rather than getting distracted by new kits. If I break it, it owes me nothing and I will be wiser when it's time for the next kit. Setting the 200 aside for now and will stick to a careful rebuild of the LML engine.

I'm getting plenty of motoring ya-ya's out of my bus and put some good miles on it over the weekend.
Tue May 31, 2022 10:59 am

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Tue May 31, 2022 10:59 am linkquote
Moving along, I measured the cylinder with a bore gauge and checked the ring gap and it looks like it's in decent shape. Going to have the local machinist give it a hone and go from there.
Tue May 31, 2022 12:45 pm

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Tue May 31, 2022 12:45 pm linkquote
for an exhaust stub leak I'd not be afraid to chuck some copper RTV in there on the threads and call it good, provided it leak checks ok afterward.
Tue May 31, 2022 12:54 pm

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Tue May 31, 2022 12:54 pm linkquote
sdjohn wrote:
for an exhaust stub leak I'd not be afraid to chuck some copper RTV in there on the threads and call it good, provided it leak checks ok afterward.
Do you mean taking out the stub and coating the threads?
Tue May 31, 2022 1:26 pm

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Tue May 31, 2022 1:26 pm linkquote
orwell84 wrote:
Do you mean taking out the stub and coating the threads?
yes
Tue May 31, 2022 1:30 pm

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Tue May 31, 2022 1:30 pm linkquote
If you do that.. check to make sure its not a similar issue to what I pictured. Cause that probably wouldn't work on the issue I showed. But it is worth a shot to try to seal the hole if you see one like mine. I would be interested to know if it works on same type of issue cause then I could potentially use the two trash p200 cylinders if I ever wanted to.
Tue May 31, 2022 1:31 pm

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Tue May 31, 2022 1:31 pm linkquote
It's worth a try. Not sure how to get it out. Heat pb blaster…pipe wrench?
Tue May 31, 2022 1:39 pm

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Tue May 31, 2022 1:39 pm linkquote
orwell84 wrote:
It's worth a try. Not sure how to get it out. Heat pb blaster…pipe wrench?
If you've got air leak.. take the top end off so you can inspect it on the bench instead of on your back.

This is how i removed the stub prior to generously getting a diy tool from whodats specifically for this purpose:




piece of metal into the stub cutouts and hit the metal like a lever with a hammer till it came loose and could be unscrewed by hand.
Tue May 31, 2022 1:53 pm

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Tue May 31, 2022 1:53 pm linkquote
i used a pipe wrench but you want to be careful not to mar the surface or you'll have trouble sealing the pipe to it later. I used something like the sheet of metal shown to reinstall.
Tue May 31, 2022 1:54 pm

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Tue May 31, 2022 1:54 pm linkquote
swiss1939 wrote:
If you've got air leak.. take the top end off so you can inspect it on the bench instead of on your back.

This is how i removed the stub prior to generously getting a diy tool from whodats specifically for this purpose:




piece of metal into the stub cutouts and hit the metal like a lever with a hammer till it came loose and could be unscrewed by hand.
Well shit. It just came right out with a slight tug with channel locks. Looks like it was not bottomed out. I'm not seeing the defect you pointed out.

Gonna clean threads, wash it with acetone, schmooze some copper coat on the the threads and snug it up tight.

Copper type sealant will probably burn out eventually but it should build up a carbon seal by then. Works on bus heat exchangers too. They are a bitch to seal.



Tue May 31, 2022 2:24 pm

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Tue May 31, 2022 2:24 pm linkquote
I used copper rtv all the time on my lambretta exhaust gaskets and on the ubend to muffler joint, it's pretty hardy. I think you're probably going to do all right here.
Tue May 31, 2022 2:28 pm

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Tue May 31, 2022 2:28 pm linkquote
Awesome! and make sure you snug the stub up tight as far as it goes!
Tue May 31, 2022 2:28 pm

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Tue May 31, 2022 2:28 pm linkquote
sdjohn wrote:
I used copper rtv all the time on my lambretta exhaust gaskets and on the ubend to muffler joint, it's pretty hardy. I think you're probably going to do all right here.
Thanks! I might be back in business with the 200 engine after all. Threads are in perfect shape and probably wasn't screwed in all the way.

177 cylinder is at the machinists for a hone. Forgot to get wrist pin retainers…D'oh!
Wed Jun 01, 2022 4:04 pm

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Wed Jun 01, 2022 4:04 pm linkquote
Cleaned the Stella cases and made this handy little socket for the exhaust stub. It's supposed to be torqued to 50 ft/lbs. Not surprised it would come loose after many heat cycles.




Now isn't that precious?

Wed Jun 01, 2022 9:26 pm

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Wed Jun 01, 2022 9:26 pm linkquote
smart tool!
Wed Jun 01, 2022 9:33 pm

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Wed Jun 01, 2022 9:33 pm linkquote
Sweet! I'll buy one if you make a bunch!
Sat Jun 04, 2022 7:04 am

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Sat Jun 04, 2022 7:04 am linkquote
The tool I made worked great for torquing the 200 exhaust stub to 55 lbs. Now I have to find something better to plug it as with the leak gone, the cut off finger of the nitrile glove I'm using pops with 6lbs, but holds a 3 psi.

The machinist put a nice hone of the Polini cylinder. He said he barely had to touch it. Not a bad seize at all. $10 well spent.

I checked the Mazz crank for runout on v blocks because the box was damaged and I always measure new parts. Even tossed up on blocks (which isn't the right way) it read dead nuts.

Cobbling together some bearing drift tools and a crank installer. Pipe fittings are a good find. Cheap and you can find them everywhere. I have a big box kicking around.

Today I'm freshening up the bus interior as it's been apart for hauling stuff. Left over flooring from a basement project and a little TLC and we'll be ready for camping. Runs like a top with the engine I rebuilt and the original carbs.

I have a few questions about bearing installation I will get to later.


Can't do better than the guy who does this every day.


Let's make some new tools.


A little flooring and elbow grease and the Better Homes and Buses photo shoot can begin.

Sat Jun 04, 2022 8:17 am

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Sat Jun 04, 2022 8:17 am linkquote
A few engine related questions:

Heating case halves in the oven or with a torch? I can do either.

Grease or oil on the bearings? What type should I use?

Piston pin retainers. I have the snap rings type. They are used but in good condition. Do they have to be new?

The kit came with these weird half spiral lock types that I have never seen. Do I have to use those? My understanding is that it's usually a question of preference.

Do bearings have to face a certain way? They look symmetrical.

Thanks.
Sat Jun 04, 2022 9:08 am

Style Maven
'74 50s x3 '78 P200 E '84 Cosa '91 PK50XL2 '58 AllState '68 Sprint '80 50special and a '66(?) Super125
Joined: 22 Nov 2010
Posts: 8613
Location: seattle/athens
 
Style Maven
'74 50s x3 '78 P200 E '84 Cosa '91 PK50XL2 '58 AllState '68 Sprint '80 50special and a '66(?) Super125
Joined: 22 Nov 2010
Posts: 8613
Location: seattle/athens
Sat Jun 04, 2022 9:08 am linkquote
I'll tackle a few:

1. Oven if you can, should heat more evenly. I have used rags soaked in boiling water w/ good results when oven was impractical. Zero chance of warpage or other damage.

2. I use 2T oil.

3. See 4.

4. Use the new retaining rings that came with your kit, they are matched to your new piston. You will like the half spirals, easy in and out when you get the hang of it.

5. I like to install 'symmetrical' bearings with the bearing number on the edge I can see, otherwise I suppose no difference? Anybody else?
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