Sat Jun 04, 2022 9:15 am

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Sat Jun 04, 2022 9:15 am linkquote
Thank you. For the oven, I don't think it needs to get all that hot.
Sat Jun 04, 2022 1:13 pm

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Sat Jun 04, 2022 1:13 pm linkquote
Finally got the exhaust stub plugged and did my pressure test. Lost about a pound of pressure in an hour. I think that's probably decent. So I threw it in the Stella. Just have to install the carb, etc.
Wed Jun 08, 2022 4:36 am

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Wed Jun 08, 2022 4:36 am linkquote
Making some progress on getting the 200 engine in. I was kind of half assed about it, since I was considering waiting until I finished the Stella engine. I'd rather take my time with it. Since I am going with a long stroke crank on this engine, I will have to pay attention to port timings, etc. I know it's pretty straightforward with the Polini kit, I just want to learn how to set that up.

Last night I checked the rotary pad clearance on the 200 using the feeler gauge method described by FMP. He seems to lock the feeler gauges with the crank but mine wouldn't do that. I think it's fine to just check if the feeler gauge will slide between the crank and pad. The .05 mm feeler gauge wouldn't go, the next smallest did, so it looks good.

For the timing, I'm just going to align the stator with the marks on the case as it was before. I think it will plug right into the Ducati CDI on the Stella. I could also plug it into the 200 CDI…either way. The wiring looks pretty straightforward as the starter has been removed.

Depending on how I like the 200, I might just keep it close to stock with the SIP road 2. There is a good article in Scootering magazine that goes through different stages of upgrades from O-tuning to kitting. A 55 mph plodder will do me just fine for the P200. I wrote down the jetting when I rebuilt the carb:

42-160
60
BE4
112

Oops, those are the jets in the Stella engine.
Wed Jun 08, 2022 7:31 am

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Wed Jun 08, 2022 7:31 am linkquote
if the piston doesn't have a notch in it to get a pick under the circlip, take the few seconds to cut one with your dremel. You'll be infinitely glad you did when the time comes to remove them.

If you don't want to do that, use G rather than C circlips so you'll at least have a fighting chance of removing them.
Thu Jun 09, 2022 1:37 pm

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Thu Jun 09, 2022 1:37 pm linkquote
The c circlips were the only ones In could get in the US.

Here are the jets in the 24/24 going on the 200:

55-160
160
BE3
60
122
Fri Jun 10, 2022 5:24 pm

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Fri Jun 10, 2022 5:24 pm linkquote
Still getting the 200 engine set up. I think the stator is set like this. I don't think I need to play with the timing if it is stock aside from the Road 2, but I'm not sure.



Sat Jun 11, 2022 5:50 am

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Sat Jun 11, 2022 5:50 am linkquote
orwell84 wrote:
Still getting the 200 engine set up. I think the stator is set like this. I don't think I need to play with the timing if it is stock aside from the Road 2, but I'm not sure.
NEVER trust the case timing marks.

It's right up there with "Don't forget the cotter pin."
Sat Jun 11, 2022 6:11 am

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Sat Jun 11, 2022 6:11 am linkquote
chandlerman wrote:
NEVER trust the case timing marks.

It's right up there with "Don't forget the cotter pin."
I've measured them off was 5° or 6°.

Last edited by Christopher_55934 on Sat Jun 11, 2022 3:35 pm; edited 1 time in total
Sat Jun 11, 2022 9:11 am

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Sat Jun 11, 2022 9:11 am linkquote
So I would be better finding TDC and marking the case accurately, then follow up with a timing light?

One of those need to learn/do as an addition to the skill set, but I would just like to start it up and do an easy run, go through the gears kind of thing. Are the case marking close enough for that?
Sat Jun 11, 2022 11:14 am

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Sat Jun 11, 2022 11:14 am linkquote
Marking TDC, then strobing it is the *only* way to properly time a bike. Anything else is just asking to hole your piston.

If all you want to do is take it around the block, you can get away with using the marks, but not only does it potentially do damage, it also robs you of power while it's doing it. It's also one of those things that's tricky the first couple times you do it, but after a while, it's super easy.
Sat Jun 11, 2022 12:08 pm

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Sat Jun 11, 2022 12:08 pm linkquote
chandlerman wrote:
Marking TDC, then strobing it is the *only* way to properly time a bike. Anything else is just asking to hole your piston.

If all you want to do is take it around the block, you can get away with using the marks, but not only does it potentially do damage, it also robs you of power while it's doing it. It's also one of those things that's tricky the first couple times you do it, but after a while, it's super easy.
10-4 on that. Less work in the long run. Once and right is always faster than quick and wrong.
Sat Jun 11, 2022 3:39 pm

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Sat Jun 11, 2022 3:39 pm linkquote
orwell84 wrote:
10-4 on that. Less work in the long run. Once and right is always faster than quick and wrong.
If you have a 2 stroke timing light with built in adjustment for degrees all you need to do is find TDC. Then you can offset on that mark. I have a light and do that to check timing on kytronik adjustable ignition.

I also marked timing spots at 18* and 24* with a digital angle finder to verify my timing light. I was extra paranoid as a noob.

When everything matched I felt better.

Last edited by Christopher_55934 on Sat Jun 11, 2022 4:16 pm; edited 1 time in total
Sat Jun 11, 2022 3:48 pm

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Sat Jun 11, 2022 3:48 pm linkquote
The variable timing light costs a few bucks more, but it's well worth it. Like Christopher said, you just mark TDC, then program the light with the amount of advance you want. And if you have variable timing, it's a must-have.
Sat Jun 11, 2022 5:07 pm

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Sat Jun 11, 2022 5:07 pm linkquote
That will have to wait for the next time. I think I can make it work with the light I have, but thanks for the suggestion. I will probably pick it one up at some point. It will be helpful for the bus too.
Sun Jun 12, 2022 2:28 am

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Sun Jun 12, 2022 2:28 am linkquote
orwell84 wrote:
That will have to wait for the next time. I think I can make it work with the light I have, but thanks for the suggestion. I will probably pick it one up at some point. It will be helpful for the bus too.
Do you have a digital angle gauge like you use for home construction? If you do once you find TDC use it to mark degrees on case for timing light.
Sun Jun 12, 2022 5:33 am

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Sun Jun 12, 2022 5:33 am linkquote
I don't. I was going to do it this way:

Use a dial indicator through the spark plug hole and find TDC by accurately measuring when the piston reached the top of its travel. Then I was going to use a degree wheel to mark TDC and the degrees relative to tdc on the engine case next to the flywheel and make a reference mark on a flywheel fin. Put some liquid paper on both places so the light picks it up.

The part I don't get in a measuring tdc twice and make a mark half way between the two. On a 4 stroke engine, TDC happens twice, only one being the firing stroke, but on a 2 stroke firing happens every time the piston is at top TDC….I think.

Not sure if this is correct.
Sun Jun 12, 2022 5:48 am

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Sun Jun 12, 2022 5:48 am linkquote
What you're doing in the second method ("measure twice") is that you're measuring where the piston stops on either side of TDC where the piston is traveling more vertically, then working back from there.

This is easiest to learn/understand if you do it with a degree wheel.

With my piston stop in place, I turn the flywheel clockwise until it stops at BTDC.

Set the degree wheel to zero.

Then, back the flywheel/degree wheel around counterclockwise and it stops again at 290 degrees. What we're looking for is the distance in degrees of the rotation that was blocked by the piston stop, so we do a little math. 360 - 290 = 70 degrees.

And what we really want is the midpoint of that 70 degrees, so we divide that by two to get 35 degrees.

Now I can remove the piston stop, turn my flywheel back to zero, then rotate it 35 degrees to get TDC.

The measurements aren't necessarily symmetrical, but they are usually pretty close.

Does that help clarify things?
Sun Jun 12, 2022 6:03 am

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Sun Jun 12, 2022 6:03 am linkquote
I think I get it. With a dial indicator, there is nothing blocking the piston travel as you would with a stop, so you shouldn't have to account for the degrees of travel that the piston is stopped from competing.

I'll try it out and see if the dial indicator works as I think it should. If it doesn't, I'll use a stop.
Sun Jun 12, 2022 6:34 am

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Sun Jun 12, 2022 6:34 am linkquote
orwell84 wrote:
I think I get it. With a dial indicator, there is nothing blocking the piston travel as you would with a stop, so you shouldn't have to account for the degrees of travel that the piston is stopped from competing.

I'll try it out and see if the dial indicator works as I think it should. If it doesn't, I'll use a stop.
I'll be curious to see how it works for you. I was bit to nervous doing mine first time, found I could move flywheel a degree or two around TDC using micrometer and holding by hand. Basically to much slop for my nervous OCD when I was trying to digest how factory setup could be that far off, I must be doing something wrong. I just looked mine was off 5° from what it should have been.

I think threads are a M14-1.25 pitch, any metric VW fasteners laying around?
Sun Jun 12, 2022 6:52 am

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Sun Jun 12, 2022 6:52 am linkquote
Ok, I see why people use a piston stop. It's simple and it works. The dial indicator was an ass ache to set up and I had to tape a little extension on the pointer. I could rig something up that works better, but it's not the space shuttle.


There's no such thing as over engineering. It's not a real concept. Oh well, live and learn.



Sun Jun 12, 2022 7:20 am

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Sun Jun 12, 2022 7:20 am linkquote
orwell84 wrote:
Ok, I see why people use a piston stop. It's simple and it works. The dial indicator was an ass ache to set up and I had to tape a little extension on the pointer. I could rig something up that works better, but it's not the space shuttle.


There's no such thing as over engineering. It's not a real concept. Oh well, live and learn.
Hadn't thought about it, angled spark plug hole doesn't help either. If I were doing that method I thought you would have to pull cylinder head.
Sun Jun 12, 2022 8:22 am

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Sun Jun 12, 2022 8:22 am linkquote
I've tried the dial indicator method. I did it with the head off and the indicator mounted into a bar that I fastened to two of the studs. It was a lot of work for inferior results, IMO.
Sun Jun 12, 2022 10:34 am

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Sun Jun 12, 2022 10:34 am linkquote
Yup. Seemed like a good idea in theory. Lots of work for inferior results. I will use the piston stop way. Tried and true.
Mon Jun 13, 2022 7:40 am

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Mon Jun 13, 2022 7:40 am linkquote
I got sidetracked replacing my car stereo. What a mutha. Only got to fiddle with the scooter a bit. Pretty sure I was able to find tdc with the dial indicator, but I made a piston stop so I will double check using that. Printed out a degree wheel, so I will finish up with the timing tonight, cable adjustments, etc.

BTW, this is the jetting for the 200:

55-160
BE3
60
122



Mon Jun 13, 2022 5:03 pm

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Mon Jun 13, 2022 5:03 pm linkquote
I went through making the timing marks using the piston stop and degree wheel, hooked up the timing gun and started it up. The timing was retarded 5-7* according to my marks. There is also a hole in the flywheel with marks that should align with marks on the stator pickup and they also looked off about the same amount, so I if I line them up, I should be close.

The electrics work but flicker a little. The battery is close to dead from sitting.

The engine ran well except for a sticky throttle. Fixed by bending the oil pump lever a little. Slide moved freely. Yay.
Mon Jun 13, 2022 5:47 pm

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Mon Jun 13, 2022 5:47 pm linkquote
orwell84 wrote:
I went through making the timing marks using the piston stop and degree wheel, hooked up the timing gun and started it up. The timing was retarded 5-7* according to my marks. There is also a hole in the flywheel with marks that should align with marks on the stator pickup and they also looked off about the same amount, so I if I line them up, I should be close.

The electrics work but flicker a little. The battery is close to dead from sitting.

The engine ran well except for a sticky throttle. Fixed by bending the oil pump lever a little. Slide moved freely. Yay.
That's same issue I had on my P200 and why I was so OCD. I verified my verification method with yet a third method. I literally turned my stator plate to end of slot to get it where I wanted it. I'm using a Kytronik variable ignition and was trying for 24°. Retards to 18° before 7000 rpm.

https://www.kytronik.com/collections/kytronik
Mon Jun 13, 2022 6:17 pm

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Mon Jun 13, 2022 6:17 pm linkquote
Christopher_55934 wrote:
That's same issue I had on my P200 and why I was so OCD. I verified my verification method with yet a third method. I literally turned my stator plate to end of slot to get it where I wanted it. I'm using a Kytronik variable ignition and was trying for 24°. Retards to 18° before 7000 rpm.

https://www.kytronik.com/collections/kytronik
That's one thing I don't understand about 2 strokes. I think the timing is supposed to retard to some degree as rpm's increase. With most old 4 stroke cars it's total advance that matters the most and is set at idle at a specific rpm and timing has to be all in by x rpm.

I haven't seen written anywhere at what rpm you are supposed to time Vespas and what timing you are supposed to expect as rpm increases. As for the flickering, I don't get it. The stator is from the Stella engine and is still on the Stella and wired just like it was to the same ignition. It should not give a shit what flywheel is spinning around it unless the crank keyway and markings on the case put them at a different orientation to how they are on the Stella. That might be it. I think a Stella is timed at 18-20*btdc.
Mon Jun 13, 2022 6:50 pm

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Mon Jun 13, 2022 6:50 pm linkquote
For static electronic ignitions, you should time them to the advance specified for the cylinder at ~4000-4500 RPM's.

For variable timing, you need to know what RPM's you hit your peak power and set the timing for the cylinder at that point. You may also need to tweak it a little to manage heat, or if you're feeling saucy, you can give it a little more advance, but make sure you don't hole your piston.
Mon Jun 13, 2022 6:54 pm

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Mon Jun 13, 2022 6:54 pm linkquote
So the 23* btdc is set at 4000-4500 rpm's which seems like about mid/range. I noticed that when I revved the engine the mark moved away from my tdc mark and closer to the 24* mark with my timing light. I used the 12v battery on my scooter to power the timing light which may have drained it.

Last edited by orwell84 on Mon Jun 13, 2022 6:57 pm; edited 1 time in total
Mon Jun 13, 2022 6:55 pm

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Mon Jun 13, 2022 6:55 pm linkquote
orwell84 wrote:
So the 23* btdc is set at 4000-4500 rpm's which seems like about mid/range.
Correct
Tue Jun 14, 2022 4:31 am

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Tue Jun 14, 2022 4:31 am linkquote
Got it. Actually, the Stella 2t IS timed at 18-20* btdc which might explain why the timing marks on the stator seen through the inspection hole don't line up with the 200 flywheel when the stator is set to the case markings (behind the flywheel).

So stock stators don't actually advance or retard the spark through the rpm range? And it's set at a kind of safe middle of the road rpm?

I can now see the appeal of the variable stators for tuning.
Tue Jun 14, 2022 4:54 am

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Tue Jun 14, 2022 4:54 am linkquote
orwell84 wrote:
Got it. Actually, the Stella 2t IS timed at 18-20* btdc which might explain why the timing marks on the stator seen through the inspection hole don't line up with the 200 flywheel when the stator is set to the case markings (behind the flywheel).
Correct. The Stella should be at 21 BTDC. And points ignitions were even further advanced to allow for the longer firing times, if I understand them correctly. Most of what I know about points, other than how to set them, is about removing them and replacing them with electronic ignitions.
orwell84 wrote:
So stock stators don't actually advance or retard the spark through the rpm range? And it's set at a kind of safe middle of the road rpm?
They're not supposed to. In reality, the the timing will tend to wander around a little bit, which is part of why you need to check it at 4K RPM's. Any lower than that and the variability is too much for an accurate reading.
orwell84 wrote:
I can now see the appeal of the variable stators for tuning.
Yep. More power down low, plus the fact that they super-advance the timing for starting makes it much easier to get a one-kick start, too.
Tue Jun 14, 2022 5:35 am

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Tue Jun 14, 2022 5:35 am linkquote
Right. Because a piston will actually be at TDC for a few degrees of rotation so timing it statically with a test light or with case markings is less accurate. I think this is what causes the "wander" at low rpm when timing with a strobe.


I time a newly installed bus engine statically just so it will start and run, then fine tune it with the timing light. There are distributors with different advance curves and even electronic units which let you map the timing curve, but they don't do much for a stock bus. The best thing has been a solid state pickup to replace points. Points work just fine but they require some gymnastics to get to in a bus.

Btw, I think the timing light might put a heavy drain on that little 12v battery. I will run it off a car battery next time.
Tue Jun 14, 2022 4:52 pm

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Tue Jun 14, 2022 4:52 pm linkquote
I'm pretty sure I got the timing right. The marks I made lined up under the light as did the flywheel and pickup marks. I had to turn the stator counterclockwise pretty much to the stops to get it to advance that much. Engine sounds good.
Wed Jun 15, 2022 4:33 am

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Wed Jun 15, 2022 4:33 am linkquote
I'm thinking I will be riding the Stella again by the weekend with the 200 engine. I am so curious to see how the 200 engines rides. Not that I expect it to blow me away. Hoping for that predictable, stock, pull from go feel with an easily sustainable 55 mph without it feeling wound out.

The end of the school year is when I seem to get old crates finally rolling. It's taken a longer than expected, but I have learned so much. Tasks that were endless fiddling are now routine. But it would be nice to finally have something to ride.
Wed Jun 15, 2022 7:22 am

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Wed Jun 15, 2022 7:22 am linkquote
You need to decide that your goal is to get something you can ride. It doesn't have to be perfect. It just needs to start reliably and not seize if you push it a little. Once you make that decision, you will have a critical path of tasks to complete to get on the road.

Then, if you want to get perfect, build your skills on the other bike and transfer what you learn over in small, manageable chunks, basically stuff that can be completed in an afternoon or evening.

If you won't ride until it's all perfect, you'll never leave the driveway.
Wed Jun 15, 2022 7:49 am

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Wed Jun 15, 2022 7:49 am linkquote
Roger that. I am a perpetual hand wringer. Gonna just ride it and see how it goes.
Wed Jun 15, 2022 12:36 pm

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Wed Jun 15, 2022 12:36 pm linkquote
Yup. Just get it on the road and enjoy it. You'll discover things that bug you that you hadn't realized, and also things you thought would be a big deal aren't.

Nothing like time on the road to settle those questions. And put a smile on your face while you do it.
Thu Jun 16, 2022 5:33 am

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Thu Jun 16, 2022 5:33 am linkquote
Finished getting it all together last night and it would not start. It had just been running. It was getting late and I was getting pissed so walked away.

Probably something simple. The carb is leaking a little too and dribbling down the back of the engine. I did try out the CHT/RPM gauge and it works. I'm going to run the wire on the outside of the tunnel under a floor mat for now. I will run it correctly when I pull the gas tank to replace the fuel tap or at least the gasket as it won't shut off the fuel.

I'll get there. The 200 doesn't have the rattle the 177 engine had. That might have been the Polini kit. The piston has a lot of clearance.
Thu Jun 16, 2022 1:02 pm

Addicted
Joined: 14 Oct 2016
Posts: 893
Location: northern New York
 
Addicted
Joined: 14 Oct 2016
Posts: 893
Location: northern New York
Thu Jun 16, 2022 1:02 pm linkquote
Finally got it running again. I had a jet that clogged. Cleaned them up and it started right up. Many frustrating hours spent figuring it out as I had no spark electrical gremlins too.
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