Sat Jun 25, 2022 6:49 am

Hooked
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Hooked
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Sat Jun 25, 2022 6:49 am linkquote
So I've just taken my SHBC 20mm carb off the Pk and the shit in the filter is off the scale. It was cleaned around October and has been driven for about 400 miles. It's 35 year old scoot so clearly the tank has issues, possibly more apparent with ethanol fuel stripping off the crud in tank that was relatively happy before using e5. So we get the carb spotless stripping down and cleaning and you don't really know when it's fouled. Has anybody tried in-line fuel filters with the see through glass? At least then I could just take the tool caddy out under seat and visually inspect the in-line filter and clean that out rather than the rigmarole of full carb removal and tear down . Any pitfalls in using them ? Any recommended makes if you do? Thx in advance.


Cruddy mother funster

Sat Jun 25, 2022 7:00 am

Addicted
Rally 180, li150, P125, p200, p200, p200
Joined: 13 May 2015
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Sat Jun 25, 2022 7:00 am linkquote
Skip the filters made up of a glass cylinder with threaded on ends and a filter element in the middle. They are well know for leaking and starting fires in the hot rod world.

Go explore the plastic offerings from a name brand like purolator.
Sat Jun 25, 2022 7:23 am

Hooked
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Sat Jun 25, 2022 7:23 am linkquote
Davetopay wrote:
Skip the filters made up of a glass cylinder with threaded on ends and a filter element in the middle. They are well know for leaking and starting fires in the hot rod world.

Go explore the plastic offerings from a name brand like purolator.
That's good to know, thank you. So ethanol resistant plastic I assume.
Sat Jun 25, 2022 7:24 am

Lucky
76 Sprint V, 63 GL, 62 VBB, 05 Stella, 66 Smallstate, 08 Stella (for now)
Joined: 16 Jun 2011
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Lucky
76 Sprint V, 63 GL, 62 VBB, 05 Stella, 66 Smallstate, 08 Stella (for now)
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Sat Jun 25, 2022 7:24 am linkquote
I'll provide the counter-point.

I've run those glass filters without issue for over ten years. I like them because I can see what's up inside them. I also put them outside the frame so I can inspect them just by looking.
Sat Jun 25, 2022 8:07 am

Hooked
Vespa ET4 125cc , Baotian 70cc rat scooter
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Hooked
Vespa ET4 125cc , Baotian 70cc rat scooter
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Sat Jun 25, 2022 8:07 am linkquote
I use inline Kohler fuel filters bit more but don't have problems like with the cheap ones.
Sat Jun 25, 2022 8:19 am

Hooked
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Sat Jun 25, 2022 8:19 am linkquote
chandlerman wrote:
I'll provide the counter-point.

I've run those glass filters without issue for over ten years. I like them because I can see what's up inside them. I also put them outside the frame so I can inspect them just by looking.
Outside frame ? On what scooter , how? I just want to have indication of what's going on with my tank as it must save so much time not having to strip out the carb as it's a couple of hours faffing, seat off , tank out, disconnect fuel gauge, etc etc . Not a quick job imo.
Sat Jun 25, 2022 9:06 am

Lucky
76 Sprint V, 63 GL, 62 VBB, 05 Stella, 66 Smallstate, 08 Stella (for now)
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Lucky
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Sat Jun 25, 2022 9:06 am linkquote
ferriswolf wrote:
Outside frame ? On what scooter , how? I just want to have indication of what's going on with my tank as it must save so much time not having to strip out the carb as it's a couple of hours faffing, seat off , tank out, disconnect fuel gauge, etc etc . Not a quick job imo.
On my VBB and SprintV with a SI carbs and on my GL with a side draft.

With the SI, it sits underneath the bellows, so I can easily inspect it.
Sat Jun 25, 2022 9:23 am

Hooked
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Sat Jun 25, 2022 9:23 am linkquote
chandlerman wrote:
On my VBB and SprintV with a SI carbs and on my GL with a side draft.

With the SI, it sits underneath the bellows, so I can easily inspect it.
Ok, so on a smallie I would be able to view by taking out the tool box/caddy under seat. Guess in-line filter doesn't matter where it sits on the fuel line?
Sat Jun 25, 2022 9:25 am

Molto Verboso
71' Sprint Veloce , 05' Vespa PX150, 1978 P200E
Joined: 04 Jul 2011
Posts: 1314
Location: Tucson, AZ
 
Molto Verboso
71' Sprint Veloce , 05' Vespa PX150, 1978 P200E
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Location: Tucson, AZ
Sat Jun 25, 2022 9:25 am linkquote
Your gas tank is losing the coating inside. That is the metal flakes from the gas tank walls.
Sat Jun 25, 2022 10:34 am

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Sat Jun 25, 2022 10:34 am linkquote
scooterist wrote:
Your gas tank is losing the coating inside. That is the metal flakes from the gas tank walls.
Yes I thought as such, I don't think e10 helps as it has ethanol which has detergent properties hence buggering up an old tank and stripping the shit off it once tolerated by e5. A certain amount of Rust inside tanks is normal over time just from condensation. That's why I Thought in-line filter was my plan until getting a new tank . IMO hopeless to try and treat as the ethanol will muller the coating process as discovered by others, you get a black carbon looking smudgy deposit. Probably have to get new tank but whether pk xl tanks still available I don't know . They have the px Efl type fuel sensor and gauge fitting hole .
Sat Jun 25, 2022 5:43 pm

Ossessionato
Vespas 1964 GS160, 1965 SS180, 1977 V9A1T, 1983 PX150E
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Sat Jun 25, 2022 5:43 pm linkquote
Probably stripping and cleaning the inside of the existing tank without an external filter (as Piaggio intended) will fix it. The inside of a tank should be clean bare metal. A mostly filled tank of gas/oil and regular riding keeps rust from ever forming.
Sat Jun 25, 2022 5:55 pm

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Sat Jun 25, 2022 5:55 pm linkquote
In-line filters make the world of difference.

With all the main jet testing changes, you can see the difference in the float bowl.

A ton of crap vS clean float bowl…

In my case, it's not tank rust, but I think crap from the fuel pump at the station.

I don't have enough room on the outside of my current PX setup to include one, but I'm thinking of installing one on the inside.

Unfortunately can't see what's going on, but at least have clean fuel

Doesn't seem to affect fuel flow, can't recommend it enough at the moment.
Sat Jun 25, 2022 6:10 pm

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Vespas 1964 GS160, 1965 SS180, 1977 V9A1T, 1983 PX150E
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Sat Jun 25, 2022 6:10 pm linkquote
How often does the filter become so full of junk that it needs to be changed?

Are these filters being talked about here being used with fuel pumps or just the gravity feed system that comes stock?
Sat Jun 25, 2022 7:26 pm

Lucky
76 Sprint V, 63 GL, 62 VBB, 05 Stella, 66 Smallstate, 08 Stella (for now)
Joined: 16 Jun 2011
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Lucky
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Sat Jun 25, 2022 7:26 pm linkquote
I use filters with both gravity feed and fuel pumps. I would not run a motor without one. I wouldn't recommend someone run a motor without one.

[asshole-ish rant deleted.]


Oh, Hai! VBB Fuel Filter!



Last edited by chandlerman on Sun Jun 26, 2022 4:02 am; edited 1 time in total
Sat Jun 25, 2022 9:14 pm

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Sat Jun 25, 2022 9:14 pm linkquote
chandlerman wrote:
If you want to be some sort of concourse purist, knock yourself out. If you get off on cleaning your carb after it leaves you stranded on the side of the road, knock yourself out.
If you're rejecting tech just because it wasn't used Back In The Day, again, knock yourself out. Just don't act like there's anything wrong with adopting technical improvements, and a fuel filter is technical improvement.
No need to be so kuntish about it. Did you notice how my last post was in the form of two questions and not statements or declarations?
Sat Jun 25, 2022 10:15 pm

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Sat Jun 25, 2022 10:15 pm linkquote
nomadinsiam wrote:
How often does the filter become so full of junk that it needs to be changed?

Are these filters being talked about here being used with fuel pumps or just the gravity feed system that comes stock?
Gravity fed in my case…

Never had to change the filter yet, but I was only running with it about 2-3 years before changing setup
Sat Jun 25, 2022 10:39 pm

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Sat Jun 25, 2022 10:39 pm linkquote
108 wrote:
Gravity fed in my case…

Never had to change the filter yet, but I was only running with it about 2-3 years before changing setup
Interesting. I don't have the same build up of crud, but I might try it as an added measure.
Sat Jun 25, 2022 11:08 pm

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Sat Jun 25, 2022 11:08 pm linkquote
nomadinsiam wrote:
Interesting. I don't have the same build up of crud, but I might try it as an added measure.
Wish I'd taken photos of the stuff in the float bowls to show.

It's like a pinch of mud at the bottom.

With the filter, it's just pure fuel.
Sat Jun 25, 2022 11:19 pm

Jet Eye Master
PX221 MHR, O tuned PX200, PX172 Quattrini and some motorbikes
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Jet Eye Master
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Sat Jun 25, 2022 11:19 pm linkquote
I usually put a big (2 inch diameter) car type plastic fuel filter under the tank. The idea of an oversized filter this is that it will never get blocked, so no need to keep looking at it. With a filter under the tank the small restrictive one in the carb can be removed.
Sun Jun 26, 2022 4:01 am

Lucky
76 Sprint V, 63 GL, 62 VBB, 05 Stella, 66 Smallstate, 08 Stella (for now)
Joined: 16 Jun 2011
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Lucky
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Sun Jun 26, 2022 4:01 am linkquote
nomadinsiam wrote:
No need to be so kuntish about it. Did you notice how my last post was in the form of two questions and not statements or declarations?
Please accept my apology. You're right. And no, I didn't.

I was sober enough to know I was ranting, but drunk enough to hit submit. Not an excuse.
Sun Jun 26, 2022 4:19 am

Ossessionato
Vespas 1964 GS160, 1965 SS180, 1977 V9A1T, 1983 PX150E
Joined: 16 Apr 2011
Posts: 2125
Location: Siam
 
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Vespas 1964 GS160, 1965 SS180, 1977 V9A1T, 1983 PX150E
Joined: 16 Apr 2011
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Sun Jun 26, 2022 4:19 am linkquote
chandlerman wrote:
Please accept my apology. You're right. And no, I didn't.

I was sober enough to know I was ranting, but drunk enough to hit submit. Not an excuse.
No problem. I actually agree in principle to what you mean. For example, many people are really insistent on running a GS160 or SS180 on 5% oil and won't consider that modern 2-stroke oils are far superior to the old stuff which means running them on 3% today does them no harm.
Sun Jun 26, 2022 4:31 am

Lucky
76 Sprint V, 63 GL, 62 VBB, 05 Stella, 66 Smallstate, 08 Stella (for now)
Joined: 16 Jun 2011
Posts: 5989
Location: Nashville
 
Lucky
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Location: Nashville
Sun Jun 26, 2022 4:31 am linkquote
nomadinsiam wrote:
No problem. I actually agree in principle to what you mean. For example, many people are really insistent on running a GS160 or SS180 on 5% oil and won't consider that modern 2-stroke oils are far superior to the old stuff which means running them on 3% today does them no harm.
Saves on spark plugs, too.

There are some interesting divergences in vintage scooter culture, for sure. I think it shows up more with Lambrettas than Vespas, and is usually more aesthetic than functional, with all the wild customs people build. I don't know if the Vespa frame is just more limiting in that respect, or if the Lammies just have critical mass that draw in people that want to build like that.

Conversely, I feel like Vespas get a lot more purists who are trying to hold back time somehow and the mix % is a perfect example. They explicitly choose the original option even though we now know better.

The fuel filter question is one where I personally put up with a lot of crap over the years. There used to be a strong consensus that fuel filters would cause starvation and seizures. Even when I empirically proved by timing flow that they didn't impede fuel flow, people accused me of faking my results. It was really weird, but it clearly left me with some thin skin and a chip on my shoulder around the topic.

Anyways...back to fuel filters...I love 'em. Maybe too much, but not that kind of too much.
Sun Jun 26, 2022 4:59 am

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Sun Jun 26, 2022 4:59 am linkquote
I have a small frame and I created this topic as removing shb carbs are a right royal pain in the arse over an SI carb. The thought of an in-line filter , yes I'd still probably have to lift tank to get to it for cleaning but won't have to take carb off and reassemble etc having to get new gaskets etc. If I could position the in-line filter in the right spot I could likely observe it's state too by lifting up the under seat toolbox caddy. I've had running issues too and if crap so easily stuffs my carb up I need a way of preventing that getting to carb in first place.
Sun Jun 26, 2022 5:11 am

Lucky
76 Sprint V, 63 GL, 62 VBB, 05 Stella, 66 Smallstate, 08 Stella (for now)
Joined: 16 Jun 2011
Posts: 5989
Location: Nashville
 
Lucky
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Location: Nashville
Sun Jun 26, 2022 5:11 am linkquote
One bit of advice that was given to me for small frames was to get a quick disconnect for the fuel line so you can pull the tank without having to touch the carb. You could then mount the filter by the tap and upstream of any other plumbing.

I haven't really even begun my smallie project yet, but that seems like a totally solid solution to me.
Sun Jun 26, 2022 7:11 am

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PX 200
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Sun Jun 26, 2022 7:11 am linkquote
chandlerman wrote:
One bit of advice that was given to me for small frames was to get a quick disconnect for the fuel line so you can pull the tank without having to touch the carb. You could then mount the filter by the tap and upstream of any other plumbing.

I haven't really even begun my smallie project yet, but that seems like a totally solid solution to me.
This opens up another hot topic.

I always wanted a quick disconnect… because of the carb removal was getting too frequent and I was talking to a friend who mentioned he was getting vacuum problems as it wouldn't prime properly the hose from the connector to the carb.

I don't know if it is a one off thing ie. Fill once and it'll be fine every time it's disconnected, or it will gain air bubbles over time.

I don't know… but I always wanted to install one. Granted they're longer than the in line fuel filter which poses a bit of a problem
Sun Jun 26, 2022 10:10 am

Member
Parmakit Primavera -74, Polini Primavera -68, Stock GL 150 -59, VMC 177 Bajaj Chetak 125 -95
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Posts: 48
Location: Finland
 
Member
Parmakit Primavera -74, Polini Primavera -68, Stock GL 150 -59, VMC 177 Bajaj Chetak 125 -95
Joined: 22 Jun 2022
Posts: 48
Location: Finland
Sun Jun 26, 2022 10:10 am linkquote
chandlerman wrote:
One bit of advice that was given to me for small frames was to get a quick disconnect for the fuel line so you can pull the tank without having to touch the carb. You could then mount the filter by the tap and upstream of any other plumbing.

I haven't really even begun my smallie project yet, but that seems like a totally solid solution to me.
I have never seen any point in quick disconnect on a smallframe. To get the best possible fuel flow to the carb I don't want to have anything extra on the line. Plus every connector is a place to eventually develop drip issues. Just use some good elastic fuel hose and it's a breeze to pop it off from the carb barb.

A good lenght for the hose is when you can lift the tank sideways on top of the frame opening but not much more. Of course on milder stages of tune these things don't matter so much.
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