Modern Vespa

Nice bike but I pass more people (on the local slab) than pass me. Still too limited for me to give up ICE. It may have a better acceleration than my 150cc Honda's but +$7,000. Not just no but HELL NO!

https://www.rideapart.com/news/565362/naon-zero-one-german-scooter/

Nobody is making you buy an electric scooter.

New ICE scooters remain available, and will be for many years.

You can keep your current scooters for as long as you like, and used ICE scooters will continue to pop up for sale forever.

The current electric scooters don't work for my long rides either, but could be just fine for most of my days, riding a mile through the historic neighborhood to my office, then short rides running errands.

They are only going to get better as battery and motor technology get better.

Having one electric scooter in my multi scooter garage makes sense, but I haven't done so yet.

Bill

I've not ridden an e-scooter but I have ridden a few e-bicycles. What a blast. I'd not hesitate to get an e-scooter, once they get to an acceptable range and power (for me). They're not there yet but I'm sure will be soon.

Given how little gas Melody (and, soon, Thelonica) actually consume, EVs are somewhat irrelevant in my own life. And–hang onto your beverages–unless you own some monster machine whose MPG rating barely hits double-digits*, perhaps the best thing you can do from an environmental standpoint is keep your present ride on the road longer (in proper tune, of course), rather than trash it and run to the shiny EV (or even hybrid) of your choosing, which, let's be clear, also takes a sizable carbon hit to create. Not saying EVs are irrelevant en toto, just pointing out the proverbial pluses/minuses here.

(I was a bit intrigued to see my first Model S Plaid in the wild in these parts.)

* This refers to four-wheeled vehicles, of course: the two-wheeled equivalent dwells in the 35MPG vicinity.

Throwing stuff away bugs me. I try to buy less stuff that ends up in the trash/landfill.
As much as I like EVs, I'm not keen on consumption to fight the effects of consumption.

No offence taken but it's all about being too expensive to add to the stable. I'm sure glad you didn't buy my black Honda.

Well put. I'm of the same mind. I even test drove a Fiat 500e a few weeks ago. I liked it but all things considered, my 16 yo gas-guzzling lux-spots car only gets filled about once every 2 months and cost about 1K to register and insure. I just can't justify getting new car in general. My daily driver for the last 18 months has been my ebike. It's fun, inexpensive, I get some exercise in and I can park it anywhere.
Miguel

The way I see it, fully electric vehicles, motorcycles, and scooters are primarily designed as local-use and commute vehicles. Considering most people use their ICE vehivles for the same thing, with only the rare long-distance trip, it matches up for a lot of people.

It hits a snag with the road-trippers, touring riders, and adventure people. If they can get charging infrastructure and quick charging times sorted, it's going to take OFF. Cost will come down in a few years of it no longer being new and strange...I'm guessing just after or about the time you won't have to stress about whether you'd be stranded somewhere with no way to recharge on a long trip.

I think you hit the nail right on the head. In the near term, EV's match up with the way most vehicles are used, most of the time. Given that most households in this country have more than one vehicle, it is usually possible to meet the long distance need in another way. That is certainly what we are doing in our household.

If EV's are going to evolve in the next 5 or 10 years why are we buying them now when there's so much more development to come ?

I have a fear that just like PC's these vehicle's performance will be superceded with each new models release which will create a glut of used cars that no one wants.

There's currently the opposite of a glut of used cars....

I looked into a Zero motorcycle. Great bikes, no doubt, the ride was fantastic, but decided it was not worth to me as they really need to be used as a commuter bike, rather than a weekend ride. I think when you buy one, you are helping the company invest in the future.

As a late adopter, it was easy to not buy Laserdiscs, Betamax, Newton and the heaviest turd, projection TV. Buying the newest Emoto seems similar.

Yes because the blessed Chip Makers chose not to make chips for the cars when the factories were closed during the epidemic of unknown origin.

Now they are open they can't make enough to keep up with demand and so demand for used vehicles goes up and then prices go up.

The opposite may happen when the next shiny EV comes out with a greater range than the one previous. Everyone wants the new version but the old version gets perceived as being out of date because it has less range.

It also may need a new battery which will also reduce its price.

If your 5 year old EV's value has dropped off a cliff because battery development has really taken off since you bought it no matter how Green you want to appear it's going to end up making you feel Blue because the next owner is going to have to consider in the condition of the battery at the point of sale.

With bizarre irony EV's are going to be more reliable than ICE cars because there are less moving parts but the batteries simply aren't there yet unlike the aforementioned that can last for what 250,000 miles ?

For the record I really like what Zero are making and they will be at the vanguard of Electric Bikes, but you're still paying more for less and that for me is the crux of it and whose going to buy it once another BMW takes my eye ?

In my country I won't be able to buy a ICE car after 2030 so they are coming whether I like it or not so if I can I'm either going to run my little Hyundai into the ground or wait until the very last minute to buy one at which time the technology will have been "perfected".

With that logic no one would buy any piece of technology.

I'll rephrase it slightly.

Product A is almost at the limit of it's development and therefore is really really good.

Product B is still a work in progress but more development is yet to come because we've watched it happen to Product A.

There's very little you can do to an Internal Combustion Engine as it's been pretty much honed to perfection in all its many guises over the past 150 years.

Automotive battery efficiency is improving monthly in leaps and bounds and so the power packs made today will look positively archaic after the face lifted model is ready for release.

My suggestion is that the drop in value of a EV with an "old" battery could be huge when progression in power packs is happening so quickly.

I'm certain that as EV's become more popular the drop in value will level out but for now we're in unknown territory.

P.T. Barnum would be happy to sell you the first year production run of what ever you want

Since EVs have been in the market for a long time we are not in a really "unknown market". We have a pretty good idea about battery life and resale

Eg the Nissan Leaf EV for over 10 years.
Or the the Toyota Prius Hybrid for over 20 years.

As I observed above, we are really not waiting for EV technology to become more relevant to the majority of our transportation needs. It has already happened. I have owned an EV for over 8 years now. The investment in the vehicle was no more than a comparable gasser, the operating costs (charging and maintenance) have both been substantially less than a gasser, and reliability has been excellent. Now, new vehicles with longer range and other improvements will certainly be welcomed, but the vehicle in my garage has done its job and paid for itself. What more could I ask?

Yes the Nissan Leaf has been around for a while but it's air cooled batteries are failing regularly.

Cars built in 2014 often will only have 60% of their battery life left and therefore can be picked up really cheap.

Have a look at John Cadogan's YouTube channel called AutoExpert on the many failures of the Leaf power packs and the frustration that their owners have had trying to get Nissan to pay for replacements.

Toyota themselves say that the Prius battery should last between 8 to 10 years and should be good for between 100,000 and 150,000 miles.

So yes they have both been around for a while but their power packs have probably been replaced.

Just an anecdote: My bro Stephen has a circa 2004 Prius with 225K+ miles on it with original batteries. He still gets 48 mpg. He lives in Washington DC and its his daily driver.

Miguel

I have to say that Stephen is the most excellent name, especially when it's spelt like that.

Seems like you are only offering up one side of the argument rather than pros and cons. I own a Nissan Leaf and have been driving one since I originally leased a '13 and later purchased a '16. Both paid back all my out-of-pocket costs in savings. And, no, most '14 Leafs have not lost 40% of battery capacity - unless you live in Phoenix. And more important, for those who have lost enough capacity so their vehicle no longer does what they needed it to do - it is possible to replace the battery pack with more capacity than when the vehicle was new for about $5,000. And that is not to mention that a loss of 30% of capacity on my '16 within 8 years would trigger a free replacement of the battery pack under warranty (again, with one of higher capacity than new). I'm hoping that mine will fail, but no sign that will happen and I am 6 years in.

Now this discussion did start with references to electric PTW's. In fairness, PTW's seem to have been surprisingly slow to catch up with current EV technology. EV cars of 10 years ago already had a range approaching 100 miles and were capable of highway speeds most everywhere. We are just starting to get there on the EV side and there it seems to me like good advice to wait and see what the next year or two brings.

I didn't say most. I said often.

The cars I'm talking about were in the UK so the temperature wasn't a factor.

Big down side for me when it comes to bikes like the Zero, is that I am dealer dependent when it needs work when it breaks down. And they do break down. The one I passed on went to someone I know and 6 months later it stopped dead. Turns out the battery management system fried - $1200 for parts and labor. Since then, no problems for the last year. But the local dealership decided to drop Zero, so any work to be done on it will require at least a 3 hour drive. Sound familiar? Similar to the Vespa situation around here.

If the burning of fossil fuels in automobiles is a major cause of climate change why don't governments try to reduce their use.

When there was a supply problem in the 70's and 80''s we had a 55 limit to reduce consumption.

So why no 55 limit to reduce consumption now?

Some do

Its a good question! I don't know the answer to that. Of course, cars have changed and become more efficient and there may not be a significant fuel saving during 55 vs 70 mph. I just don't know.
Miguel

I know that for me, in my current location and lifestyle an Ev is not a good choice. Car gets good mpg and is in very good shape, 2/21 it gets that long coveted hitch professionally installed, great start to vacation week. Got a herd of scooters, and all are fuel efficient and I live in tiny town, 55 miles to my nearest city for shopping that is not available here, yes Internet is my frequent go to for a lot of things, the time and costs to go somewhere, and hope to find the item and purchase and come home..
But I think they will be more and more common as time goes, and I am and have been a firm believer in taking care of our only planet.
Darn it, they are talking 'junking' the only space station this solar system has…. We should, by now, have a newer space habitat and be recycling that space station as we are building the newer and better model and we should already be mining and smelting that ore out in space.
And I want Vespa to keep production on at least a couple models of their classic body styles…

A little wishful thinking, but...
I know these companies love designing from the ground up, but I would love to see someone work on an electric or other non-ICE engine that is backwards compatible for scooters and motorcycles. If they can make it a "plug and play" level of engine swap, even better.

As much as I would like to see a national return to either the 55mph or a 60mph limit, it's just not going to happen without a major disaster or something. Reason being {political topic}. I CAN comfortably say that I've watched the fuel efficiency display on both my car and motorcycle and there's definitely a difference above 55-60mph. It's kind of a wind resistance plateau point that breaks into a steeper curve once you get above 60. That might be a bad explanation...hopefully it makes sense.

It was a bad idea when Nixon did it, and it hasn't gotten any better. It's the sort of law that comes about when people who are out of touch with the world we actually live and work in try to decide what's good for everyone else. Why not ask a focus group of 25-45 year old commuters if they want everyone to drive 55, instead of telling them they have to because some old people who don't get out much, rich people who take private jets everywhere and people who live in cities and ride the bus, think it's a good idea. We progress, and part of that progress is the ability to safely and quickly do the things we have to, so that we have more time for things that give us pleasure. Sitting in a long line of cars behind some tuft of blue hair that can't go the speed limit is not an activity from which pleasure is derived. When the speed limit was 55, it was as if time stood still. And I got a lot of tickets.

To get back to Bill's point. I think there will be a big market in private companies selling modern, whatever that is at the time, battery packs for older EVs at a fraction of what the companies that make the cars want. A few of these companies will create products that catch on fire, but for the most part, they will keep older EVs on the road longer. Sooner or later, there will be a lot of money made selling upgraded battery packs for all the older Teslas on the road. There are companies that do it now, but nothing like we're going to see.

The reason that this transition interests me is that if you were sitting behind the desk of a car salesman and he said that the engine in your new vehicle would probably need replacing after 10 years you'd walk out and yet we're expected to accept that scenario when buying an EV.

Let's face it by the time the power pack needs replacing it's going to be someone else's problem as the initial buyer has probably sold it or traded it for the next best thing.

There's a cross over point around at around 7 years where the increased emissions created at the point of manufacturing an EV intersects with the emissions produced in the same period by an ICE vehicle so there's not a lot in it if the environment is your priority.

What I am going to miss is the characteristic of each engine and it's respective configuration.

Manufacturers sub contract the power packs and the motors so all the cars will have the same delivery so what exactly are you buying when many, if not all the internals will be the same as the car next to you ?

Just to clarify I'm not anti EV, but having seen the way Diesel was heavily promoted for being Green and then dropped like a hot potato when it became toxic, I think that we should tread carefully.

Just read that the average age of a car around here has increased to 12,6 years.

The explanation used to be that folks are waiting for mature technologies - be it media devices, safety features, electricity...the explanation varied.

Now its starting to look more like folks are just simply not that keen on putting money on cars anymore. Also, as mentioned above, the idea of lowering comsumption of materials in general is catching up -not a major factor here, but it is there. COVID increased the use of personal vehicles, but even that was not enough to turn up the downward trend.

The group that used to get kicks from new 'premium' cars is now here mostly company car users. Leasing cars, included into the salary. With emission rules: hybrids and EVs. Increasing amount of leasing deals so, that they'll reduce your salary instead of being on top of it.

Common sense in humans varies dramatically. All my life I've been a multi vehicle owner. One utility and one(or more) economy.
When fuel was last above $4, a large number of people traded low mileage vehicles for higher mileage ones. The fuel savings in the long run, barely offsets the purchase/trade loss. It will happen again.
I will never replace a perfectly running ICE scooter that's paid off for a new EV scooter with less performance/range that cost up to 50% more than a new ICE scooter with better performance/range.

Around here, there are two main drivers for electric vehicles: environment and cost.

I love nature, but I'm still driving my 16 year old Volvo diesel car. Seems like I'm an environment destroying monster, but the CO2 that's produced to produce a new electric car for me, will certainly be a lot more than the CO2 I produce driving around 10k kms per year in my old diesel car.

And that's the same with the cost. My Volvo costs just about nothing anymore. And because it's a Volvo, it just will not break down . I will never get an interesting ROI on an EV. At least not as long as the Volvo is still alive.

(That, and I hate cars. Whenever the holidays with the four of us are history, my car is a goner and we'll only keep my wife's. I'm happy on two wheels, rain or shine.)

Triumph is getting into the act. A long read but some prestigious companies are involved.

https://powersportsbusiness.com/top-stories/2022/02/08/triumph-te-1-prototype-reveal-live-testing-phase-to-begin/

I think most people that started driving and riding when 55 was the law would agree with Sammy. I remember when it was lifted. It was like being set free. I could drive straight through from New England to Florida in one long day instead of two 11 hour days.

Let's find other alternatives please.

I have it, but no one wants to hear it.

Well, I suppose "I don't want to drive 55" is an answer. But a better answer is that there are much better ways to reduce consumption and effluents while maintaining useful capabilities. Small, highly fuel efficient engines are available, hybrids do even better, and EVs do better yet. Any of these options are using less fuel and generating less global warming gases than virtually any car driven at 55 in 1975. Technology is at least part of the answer and we would be silly not to use it.

48 mpg, that is translated in my terms 5 l/100km.

You do not need a hybrid for that. A simple diesel will do. My BMW X1 18d does 45 mpg.
It does not need 2 engines and a battery and a complex transmission.
No, simply a 2,0l 150hp diesel and a 6 speed manual gearbox.
It could be more economical in fuel consumption for sure but that engine is a dream engine.