Modern Vespa

It is an idea that many people have but the burning of fossil fuels in cars is not a major cause of climate change.
The share is maybe some 10% of greenhouse gas emissions, close to negligeable.
There is no need for governments to reduce their use.

I do own a machine whose mpg rating barely hits double digits. It cost me $5000 USD. I use it for work. An electric equivalent capable of doing what I need for work, and not sacrificing any of the goodies my current truck has, would cost me $94,000 + taxes.

I think I'll keep my V8, and save over a $100,000 difference... and you're right, creating new vehicles is resource-heavy and environmentally-taxing. Not to mention, in many places, creating electricity still comes from burning coal and fossil fuels. How environmentally friendly your electric vehicle is actually depends on where you're plugging it in.

A lot of people will say things will only get better as battery tech improves, which is right to an extent... but I also wonder if they've looked into the world's limited lithium supply... Some estimates say depending on the growth of popularity in EV and small devices, we may only have a 17 year global supply of lithium. It is a finite resource. In the short term lithium batteries will decrease, but demand will go up, supply will go down, and price go to the moon.

And then there's that whole conversation about it taking "about 500,000 gallons of water to extract one metric ton of lithium" that no one in a Tesla wants to talk about

It's just 7% of global emissions that come from cars, trucks and motorcycles.

PeterCC, My anecdotal comment was referring to the fact that hybrid batteries can last a long time. In the case of my brother's circa 2004 Prius, the batteries are 18 years old and still have pretty good performance.
Miguel

Bill Dog,

The UK is eliminating new ICE vehicles in eight years? (2030)

I expect it might not matter. The Green folks on this side of the pond
say the world will come to an end by that time.

On topic, I agree, the EV currently do not have enough miles between charges and
they cost to much for me. I had not thought through your two metaphors before:

1. Too much for too little.
2. Major improvement in battery technology will make current EVs worth very little.

Number 2 above would be like someone developing a ICE that had 3 times the
miles per gallon and was just as powerful. The old vehicles would be dumped.
As already posted, this kind of drastic change as ICE developed over time did
not occcur

So, I guess I remain a polluting son of a gun for the near future.

Bob Copeland
Frost Bite Falls Minnesota (Come on Spring!)

That is very decent.

Energy efficiency in an ICE is in the best case with a good diesel engine maybe 30-35%, something like that.

But that is not bad at all given thermodynamic laws and material and physical restrictions.

A natural gas plant producing electricity is doing better, on average some 50%, but taking into account the losses on the grid and in loading and un-loading of batterys in practice it will not be much better.

Yes, ICE's banned from sale in 2030 and motorcycles in 2035. This well intended act won't reduce emissions but will initially increase them.

Ironically enough the EV ( bribe ) subsidy in the UK has just been cut from £5000 to just £1500 per vehicle, just when you'd think that people would be encouraged to buy one.

Ford and GM in the US are building a bucket load of EV's on the gamble that customers buy them but that's not going to happen for a while for reasons already discussed.

When they don't sell Ford's debt of $145 Billion and GM's debt of $108 Billion are likely to increase somewhat, plus there will be compounds of un-allocated vehicles as the dealers will be full of un-used stock already.

Now, you can lower your emissions and increase your MPG by buying a smaller car but no one's going to do that as it's a really hard sell. Downsize to save the world ? Naaaaa

Have you noticed that the EV's they are building are all big ? Why because you need a battery that size to give you enough power and range and they still have less range than an ICE.

EV's are not the work of the Devil but now isn't the time to buy one. Buy one in 2030 when you won't have a choice and prevent a glut of un-sellable cars whose technology was still a work in progress when you brought it.

What IS the best MPG being gotten in what small modern car with a small modern ICE engine? Can it be cheap if standardized & all the heavy extras eliminated? For those of us who don't stack up the miles, but sometimes need a basic car it would be nice to have a lightweight efficient gasoline model to figure EV economic baselines against. Yeah, I get it, this is all so last century .

My Toyota AYGO used to manage 65 mpg.

The Hyundai I10 I have does about 55 mpg.

Cruises at 80 mph.

Not bad at all, so why would anybody choose Toyota Prius over Toyota Aygo then if the point is to burn less gas?

It was a clever little trick.

At the end of a cars run a manufacturer will load the cars up with loads of extras to clear the shelves so to speak and make room for the new model, so as the dealer was offering me a good deal on the Aygo and the last old shape unregistered I10 was available in my local Hyundai shop with everything except leather seats so I bought it.

Sorry that wasn't what you asked.

The Aygo weighed nothing and had a 1000cc 3 cylinder engine which is why it was so frugal. it was also 85% recycleable.

Small light cars are the way to go.

Lots of misinformation in this thread..I'll just remind all not to believe everything you think.

Peter, just to quantify that performance: His Prius got 52-54 mpg IIRC. Now, 18 years later he gets 48 mpg using the same batteries. I'd say that is pretty good value and performance. So despite some fo the comments above, not all batteries die in 5-7 years. Just sayin'.
Miguel

How I feel about people believing the 2030 and 2035 ICE ban dates will actually happen. Why are we pretending that is going to happen in under 8 years?

Firstly, as of right now, these are only proposed, they have not been accepted.

Secondly, we haven't seen any updates on the "proposal" in six months, meaning they aren't even working on it right now.

Thirdly, and let's be really honest, how good are any of our countries doing at keeping their promises on climate change?

If we think about the Kyoto Protocol, since that's the UN accord that covers gas emissions, the USA wouldn't even sign on to that, and Canada first signed on, and then backed out lol...

Proposals are only proposals... And even if things do get approved, many countries have shown a history of making promises and then pushing back the deadlines later.

Let's try to remain realistic...

Given the price of better 50cc scooters at this time, these electric models could be used for the five to ten miles most of those 50cc vehicles cover.

https://cscmotorcycles.com/buy-a-bike/electric-scooters/

If you need more range these won't do the trick but many 50cc scoots are used for short commutes or trips to the train station.

Small cars,

I fell in love with small cars after living in Europe for four years.

My commuter car is a Honda FIT. I drive 23 miles one way to work.
This Honda gets 44 miles per gallon on the expressway and 39 in
stop and go side city streets.

The vast majority of my neighbors drive BMWs, Audis, Mercedes,
and Huge GMC/Chevy Tahoes. My good neighbor Bill asked me - Do
you drive that small car to afford those cigars you smoke. So,
we are still locked into bigger is better.

Bob Copeland

Well, here's the spanner thrown into the works: the most-desirable vehicles on the road at the moment are monster pickups: RAMs and F-series and Silverados and Denalis (and so on). Fuel mileage in the low-to-mid teens. Eco-conscious much?

The EVs being dangled in front of these folks? a GMC Hummer, boasting 1000hp. A Silverado EV. An F-150 Lightning. Big, burly, heavy, but electric.

Let's talk about the "heavy" part. When me and Melody got flattened last December, it was at the hands of someone piloting a Honda Fit. The typical Fit is fairly low in profile and weighs approximately 2300lbs. A GMC Hummer, for comparison, weighs just a tad over 9000lbs, the battery making up a significant portion of that figure, with the vehicle assuming a considerably higher profile. I shudder to think of what the outcome of encountering one of those in the same situation would be.

And this matter has cropped up in recent conversations revolving around road safety: EVs that are considerably heavier than their liquid-fueled counterparts becoming deadlier projectiles in collisions, in spite of all the newfangled ancillary electronic safety measures frequently in place. Thie is one of the reasons I feel today's "state-of-the-art" will quite possibly be the outsized e-waste of the not-terribly-distant future.

So, yeah, I'm with John Cadogan on this, too: we can't consume out way out of this thing. (And, yes, it IS a thing, as he himself put it.)

The latest version of the fully electric Renault Clio has a Zero NCAP rating.

Once again, a Zero NCAP rating.

It's French. Won't it just retreat away from danger?

Yes but not as fast as one made by Lancia.

Actually the Boss of Stellantis did say a few months back that he fears that they'll never make money from Electric Vehicles.

I'm waiting to see who actually is making book on their EVs. (Tesla isn't, at least not by very much. )

This sums it all up. In fact, this sums up 99% of First World Reality.

If we want to change something for the better, we need to change our behaviour. Nothing more and nothing less.

I don't know about sales bans. I think the ICE cars will go away due to lack of interest.

I bought a Tesla. I spent years doing the sums (I've worked on the road for over 30 years) and when the numbers made sense I pulled the trigger.

After the test drive I realized that I'd have bought it even if it was burning radioactive whale embryos.

In 10 years all the young kids who tell me they can't wait until they can buy a Tesla and have swallowed the climate Kool Aid are nt going to buy a stinky ICE engined car.

Electric scooters and motorcycles may never fit the bill as their form doesn't suit the requirements of the riding public, but advances in this area will not be linear and shouldn't be trusted by those who think extrapolation will tell them the future. It never has.

Scientists in my area are a step closer to making electricity cheaper and a damn site more planet friendly than burning fossil fuels.

https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2022/feb/09/nuclear-fusion-heat-record-a-huge-step-in-quest-for-new-energy-source?utm_term=6204fe44cf08ccdc7435913fbc70baf6&utm_campaign=GreenLight&utm_source=esp&utm_medium=Email&CMP=greenlight_email

Too many comments in this thread to respond to. It's all good conversation. Just getting in late to the game. But here's my input so far.

Back in December I bought a 2018 FIAT 500e. We drove our truck to Chicago and trailered it back.

The thing is, I'm not out to save the world. I am also not a fan of consumerism. I've had a good run with my '99 Volvo that I spent $2K on 13 years ago. And I didn't give it up; it's just semi retired. I didn't buy the FIAT out of a sense of moral responsibility. I don't hate ICE cars; I totally love our Toyota Tundra. It pulls our 24' camper. So, my reasons are different from many already mentioned.

So, why did I buy it?

Obviously it was time for me to car shop, even knowing the market is stupid. The Volvo, with lots of years and 250K+ miles behind her, is getting a little long in the tooth. I've been interested in EVs not because they're "going to save the planet", but rather because of the tech. I wanted to get in at the hobbyist level, and bang for the buck this was probably the best deal out there.

I live in a city where everything we need is easily within 10 miles. I live 2.5 miles from work. I am perfect candidate for a small, low range EV, which the FIAT is.

So, full disclosure, it's a 2018 with just over 16K miles and 8 months (7 now) left on the factory warranty, which I have already taken advantage of to have some plastic bits that cooked in the California sun replaced. It was a one owner lease vehicle and I spent $14.6K on it. A year ago it would have been $10K or less, but what are you going to do? It's the market right now. I literally had a spreadsheet of fifty 500es across the country and rated them on an index based on age, price and a differential between their mileage and 50K. It ranked them on a 0-5 scale using four significant figures. So I had already done the math.

Results so far?

I haven't bought gas this year. Zero. We still have Chicago gas in the truck. I've put a spreadsheet together to calculate savings over gas using current fuel prices and a 20mpg average of our other vehicles, which is very forgiving considering our driving habits. I compare this to the price of electric charging at home. I'm on a variable rate plan (as of February) where our base rate during off peak ours is $.07/kWh rather than $0.10/kWh.

In January my net savings were $51.50. So far this month savings are $20.53. That is net savings electric vs gas.

Again, EV's aren't for everyone. I'm a good candidate because of my circumstances. I also have ICE options, so I'm not relying solely on electric. And I have no illusions that my car will hold its value as the tech advances; it may be worthless in a few years. But I didn't buy it as an investment; I bought it as an experiment.

It's been fun.

I understand that sentiment. I had a V6 Hybrid Toyota Highlander, like you, as an experiment. Good experiment. Couldn't tow or haul worth a damn though so it had to go after only a year...

The Highlander Hybrid was rated to tow 1,500 lbs less than the standard V6, womp womp...

Good experiment but zero regrets selling it.



I might be open to a hybrid pick-up truck though... then I would have a fuel-friendly vehicle still useful for actually doing stuff beyond just covering short distances.

EV/ICE Vehicle Discussion

Philosophical Thought Experiment:

1. If it was factually determined that the use of ICE vehicles had no impact
on past or future climate fluctuations would you favor EVs?

A. No
B. Yes
C. Are you stupid, this can't be true.

2. If it was factually determined that the method of producing electricity and
the mining of precious metals to build batteries offset improved climate factors
would you favor EVs?

A. No
B. Yes
C. Come on, this can't be true.

Nothing meant politically. In my limited opinion, the core of EV is environmental. Greek philosophers put thought experiments forward to not shut down discussion and
consider the what if. Retraction: I have an MBA in Business not Philosophy.
I doubt I could name more than two Greek philosophers.

My concern is changing entire supply chains and reordering economies based on
what if.

Mrs Silence Dogood

In 1950s San Diego a common sight was the electric car the size of a golf cart but styled like a big car. Some had fins and enclosed interiors with tiller steering. They were usually driven by little retired ladies to the Piggly Wiggly or the hairdresser, and usually painted blue or jade green. They were made by various Long beach companies like Electra King, Marketeer or Autoette and required no drivers license, which was great for DUI drivers who lost theirs. So these cars were often driven in a haphazard manner.

B
B

I'll be 70 in a couple of weeks. In the waning months of their existence I bought a Scion iA. A 1500cc long stroke four cylinder with....wait for it....a manual six speed transmission. A computer controlling my shifts? Pbttttt. Not for me. It gets 45+ mpg on the highway and 36+ around town.

Do I think e cars will take a big chunk of the market before I sign off? Probably. I won't say I'll never own one but I'd rather not think about it. I'm having too much fun listening to an engine note rising and falling with each shift in the car and my motorcycles.