Modern Vespa

I wonder what explains my luck then? I'm definitely not treating it with kid glives!

I'll have to take a comparative look at the stuff vs seven spring, but if they're stamped from the same thickness metal, the six sitting should be more resistant to mushrooming due to smaller diameter, but more prone to slipping due to less surface area.

Stock clutch is good to like 16+ HP, BTW.

Meanwhile back at the ranch,

I have been in communication with David at Scooter Mercato. He is awesome to deal with! I explained to him my clutch situation and this is what we have come up with for clutch options so far.



Possible Clutch options include:

Option 1 https://www.scootermercato.com/M-5217808 per David's recommendation

Option 2 Install a Cosa 2 Clutch if we can determine the ring gears are the same in both of these Malossi Up Gear Kits.

https://www.scootermercato.com/Scooter-Parts/Upgear-and-Clutch/M-6716721
and https://www.scootermercato.com/Scooter-Parts/Upgear-and-Clutch/M-67-3730

If the two 64 Tooth straight cut ring gears are the same in the Malossi Up Gear kits, David will see if I can just get the 23 tooth straight cut clutch cog from the Malossi Cosa 2 Up Gear Kit so I can install it in a Cosa 2 Clutch. This would insure that it's a Malossi on Malossi set up.

Option 3 find out from DRT if their gear will play well with Malossi gears. DRT's literature is stating that the gear will work with Polini gears but does not mention Malossi gears.
https://www.sip-scootershop.com/en/product/clutch-gear-cog-23-teeth-drt-clutch-cosa-2-primary-64-teeth_87477000 and install it in a Cosa 2 clutch.


It's been quite the learning experience! Stay tuned!

Hec

VMC 10 molle ERGAL is the best clutch for it price.

This is what you need. if....the VMC doesn't pull the 24/63, which it might not.

https://www.sip-scootershop.com/en/product/clutch-sip-cosa-2-ultrastrong-23-teeth-primary-64-teeth_93445300?q=ultrastrong.
Comes complete with a cog ready to install. Cheap.

Thanks Roland for the recommendation. The big question is the compatability of the Malossi gear with other manufacturers.


Jack,
I sent SIP an email asking them what my clutch options were based on my Cush Drive having the Malossi 64 tooth straight cut gear. This what they replied with.

https://www.sip-scootershop.com/en/product/clutch-gear-cog-23-teeth-drt-clutch-cosa-2-primary-64-teeth_87477000

Fingers crossed David with Scooter Mercato comes up with something.

Hec


Awe Man!

Thought you had the 63 ring gear?

Update,

I have also been emailing Roger from SIP numerous times regarding clutch options. Each of his responses were vague and really didn't confirm that the DRT Cosa Clutch cog would mesh up with my 64 tooth straight cut Malossi ring gear. So I tried asking my question one more time only this time I asked in German using the assistance of Google Translate

Success! Roger not only understood my question but provided the answer needed!

So it looks like I can install the following on my engine.

https://www.sip-scootershop.com/en/product/clutch-gear-cog-23-teeth-drt-clutch-cosa-2-primary-64-teeth_87477000

Time to notch the tab in the engine case!

Hec


Hallelujah!

I have the same Malossi 64 tooth primary gear as you.
Close to certain I switched the Malossi cog for the 23/64 DRT I had, but I'm not at home for another week to check which I left out.

Look into the BGM clutch cover at Scooter Center. Billet cover with an internal oil feed channel. PNP no dremel work needed to fit a Cosa clutch.

If you nip the tab now you can do the switch in-frame no worries with that cover, once you've decided if the 23/64 is where you want to be with your current clutch cog's gearing.

Ray,

Please let me know which cog you ended up using. What clutch are you using? Good to know you are running the same 64 tooth gear too! I'll definitely look into that clutch cover.

Hec

All we know that there almost no oil on the clutch cover side. Just a nice marketing.

A few pages back you said it was a 63 ring gear. Which is valid as malossi make a 63 and a 64.

As said, either can be used with the drt 23 or 22. Once it's been ridden you'll know which one.

Buy the whole ultrastong when the time comes.

I bought a band (band aid) welded to my first clutch basket to prevent spreading or flowering. Do you have room for a banded basket in your case? Might buy you some time while figuring out gearing. Bands were cheap $20.00 compared to a new clutch, welding was done buy a pro didn't trust my chicken scratch for structural use.

https://www.scootermercato.com/Scooter-Parts/Clutch-Baskets-Back-Plates-and-Drive-Gears/SIPBANDEDP125

https://www.scootermercato.com/Scooter-Parts/Clutch-Misc-Parts/93206000

Decisions Decisions,

Initially when I purchased the Malossi 23/64 Up Gear Kit the plan was to build an engine using a P150X piston and cylinder. So I bought the Up Gear Kit and a smaller 36 tooth 4th gear. Since then, I have gone with the VMC 177 Stelvio Cylinder kit, stroked crank, better exhaust etc. and also have found out that smaller 36 tooth 4th gear I was planning on using won't work in my gear case so the original 44 tooth 4th gear is back in. Fast forward to today, I know now that I have clutch options other than my 6 spring P125X clutch. The general consensus here is that the stock 6 spring clutch wont survive long given the engines new configuration with a projected 12 HP output. I really would like to put in the right clutch once and be done. In addition, I don't think I should notch the tab in the engine case for the larger clutch until I have the actual clutch in hand so I can properly measure everything an only remove the minimum amount of material as necessary. If I keep my 6 spring clutch, I don't think I should notch the case in advance since this will effect the oil flow to the clutch. The oil flow might be the only thing keeping it alive. From what I have learned the smaller 6 spring clutch is the only one that actually got good oil flow due to its smaller diameter.

Questions:

* If I upgrade the clutch to a Super Strong or similar should I be looking at a different clutch gear (22 tooth) instead of the 23 tooth given my 64 tooth primary gear and stock gearing? Keep in mind most of my riding will be around the lake and in town but there will be situations were I will need to exceed 55 MPH for 10-15 miles commuting into town. I will also occasionally have a passenger but only cruising around the lake at 40 MPH or less.

As always I appreciate your feedback!


Hec


Stock P125 Gearing

23/64 Malossi Up Gear

Update

Tonight I pressure tested the engine. I think my readings are good!

Initial pressure was 6 PSI
After 5 mins pressure was 6 PSI
After 10 mins pressure was 4 PSI. That was a bad reading as my pressure gage wasn't seated
After 15 mins pressure was 4.5 PSI
After 25 mins pressure was 4 PSI
After 1 hour pressure was 3.5 PSI

Hec

Can't really see how you're doing the test. Is it a bike pump you're using? It will always be pumping air regardless, no?

Not sure if 6psi might be too high and something got pushed out.

I aim for 220-240 mmHg (around 4.5psi) to hold usually for 24hrs.

Any needle movement is a fail in my eyes and I'd be looking for the culprit.

If your psi fluctuations are that high (6-3.5psi) I don't think you'll be able to jet the carb properly.

repeat the mantra: there is no "once and done", there is no silver bullet, there is no glass slipper.

the best you can hope for is a goldilocks situation where one gearing is in over rev, the other gears you can't pull and you finally find the ones that are just right-- and you can only find that by trying different ones.

the gearing calculator is just an educated guess, it doesn't account for variables like rider weight, terrain, wind or rolling resistance. but it will get you darn close to where you think you want to be.

terrain and riding style have almost as much impact as the motor setup to gear selection.

put it together and ride it. know that you're going to break something, hate something and be thrilled with something all while understanding that you will be taking something back apart and take comfort in knowing that this is just the starting point.

The bike pump was set to 4.5 PSI however when it supplied air and shut off at the set pressure it over shot the pressure to 6 PSI. The pump was immediately disconnected when it shut off and not reconnected.
I checked air pressure at 5,10,& 15, 25mins and 1 hour. Every pressure check released a bit of air. Given that, I just pressured it up again to 5.5 PSI and will check the pressure in the morning and report back.
From what I have been told, pressure should hold 5 PSI for at least 5 mins. This is the minimum criteria for the test. Based on that I easily meet the minimum then.

Hec

Last edited by Hec In Omaha on Sun, 26 Mar 2023 03:29:23 +0000; edited 1 time

Word…!

+1 with greasy.

1st PX engine build I had the cases apart 3 times in 4 weeks.

You get pretty good at closing and opening cases after that.

Get it up and running is a good mentality. Just look at CM, his cases are closed in an hour and the motor is started (granted something blows up, but let's not get into that, and it has nothing to do with closing the cases…lol)

Yeah, only airtight sits well with me. If not I found you end up chasing jetting ghosts.

In theory, 5mins should be enough. But that means there's a leak somewhere that will only get bigger over time.

If it release air each time you check, you can really get an accurate reading of how much is leaking…

this is a good time for OCD Hec to step in.

I should have elaborated more. I checked the pressure with a digital tire pressure gage. Each time I checked the pressure at the Schrader valve on my block off plate I heard a little pssst. Just like you would checking air pressure in your tires. A small amount of air escapes when you push the gage on the tires Schrader valve. I did another test and only checked air pressure once after 25 mins and read 5.0 psi which is the same pressure I started with!
I ran another test to see how much pressure is lost during the pressure reading procedure. I repeatedly took pressure readings one after another. I would sometimes see 0.5PSI drops after each pressure reading or every other pressure reading due to the air leaking caused by pressure testing.

Let's see what I read tomorrow after letting it sit overnight.

OCD Hec


Digital Tire Pressure Gage

Yeah, I see, each reading would be a drop in pressure.

But 0.5psi seems like a lot, unless it takes a while to insert the reader.

Maybe worth pumping it up, waiting a few hours before the first reading. Probably the longer the better.

Find yourself an inexpensive manual blood pressure cuff for next time. You get a gauge, bulb to pump up case and can monitor what's happening.

You can get them from Walgreens, Walmart, better yet used from a local thrift store or garage sale.

Use a plastic "T" to connect them together. Plenty of hose from cuff to make test setup Most go up to 300mmhg or 5.8 psi. Take your valve stem core out and slide hose over valve stem. Depending on hose you may need to adapt to a larger hose.

Update

Overnight pressure test is a complete success! I have lost zero pressure over 8 hours and still have 5.5 PSI.

I'll test again at the 24 hr mark.


Hec

I'd say that's a success!

The test is for your own sanity.

Trust me, you'll remember if it worked properly when and if you did it correct, when jetting just never is right and you second guess yourself on the carb running conditions.

That channel doesn't feed oil to the cover. Narrow stream to the pin.

Are you measuring the amount of oil vs the drip-out method?

Update

The 24 hour pressure test has now been completed.
Starting pressure was 5.5 PSI
Ending pressure after 24 hours is 5.5 PSI ! She's as tight as a frogs ass!


Today I got a little more done. I drilled out the 24/24 SI carb bowl inlet to 2.7mm. So that's out of the way.

Next on my list is the fork and front hub. New bearings, seals, front shock, dampers, brake shoes. The works.

Stay tuned!

Hec

I have watched this video before and have always wondered if the bigger clutches are still considered a wet clutch? We soak new clutch linings in oil for 24 hours prior to installation but after that how much oil do the clutch linings actually get? I know my smaller 6 spring clutch was dripping with oil upon removal. Dried out clutch linings can't be good.
Jack has warned me to only remove the minimum amount of material on the case tab in order to try and preserve the tabs function. This would explain why. This is the main reason I haven't removed the tab yet. I don't have the future SIP super strong clutch in hand to measure how much tab removal is needed.

Hec

Old mk1 malossi cases look like this.

Not sure how effective it is.

But I'd definitely wait to have the new clutch on hand to check the spacing.

Great picture! It gives me something to try and copy. Doing my research, I've often seen that tab ground all the way down.
Was that case set up for a P200 clutch from the factory?

Hec

The clutch I ended up using was a SIP cosa race clutch. It's a little on the hard side. But soft compared to vintage motorcycles.

Wanted it to handle the malossi 210 kit I have on the engine. Note: the clutch cover needs milling out. The clutch is bigger.

When you use performance clutches you're suppose to use 300-400ml of gear oil. Most of the work is done by the plastic oil slinger bringing the oil from the gears to the clutch.

So I wouldn't worry to much about the tab at the top and oil getting to the clutch cover.

And there's no need to soak clutch plates over night. Not sure where the myth has come from but, it's completely ok just to drizzle oil as you assemble the clutch. Built numerous clutches that way, never had any problems.

108,

Thanks for that! I noticed you have the SIP ball bearing pressure plate. How do you like it?

Hec

Yeah, it's great. Highly recommend it. Not the cheapest part, but clutch actuation feels more consistent. And definitely less wearing. After around 3 years, the stock pressure plate ends up with a small crater.

That video is not incorrect but the full story either. However, it does highlight that without any oil way at the cover edge, no oil at all gets to the plunger.
Remove only what is needed and no more.
The sip ultrastong is designed to fit in the standard cover. Less strong but pleny enough for highy hp.

I am glad to hear you like it! Especially since I just ordered one this past weekend along with my SIP Ultra Strong Clutch with a 23 tooth straight cut gear and P200 Clutch Cover!
My reasoning for installing the Ultra Strong Clutch now, instead of using the 6 spring clutch, was that worst case scenario would be finding out that my gearing isn't right with the 23 tooth clutch gear on the SIP Ultra Strong clutch. However, I will still have a 22 tooth clutch option for my setup with the SIP Ultra Strong Clutch. I would rather only replace the clutch gear on the SIP Super Strong clutch as compared to possibly having my 6 spring clutch come apart and causing potential damage to my gear case in the process.
In addition, now I can use that cool clutch nut I bought. I found out that I couldn't use that clutch nut with the 6 spring clutch as I couldn't get a socket to fit in there. The further I threaded the nut on the crank the less the socket engaged with the nut. There isn't a socket thin enough to get in between that nut and the 6 spring clutch opening. If there was such a socket I don't think it could take the torque to properly install the clutch nut. It would have to be very very thin.

Here is what's been ordered:

https://www.sip-scootershop.com/en/product/clutch-sip-cosa-2-ultrastrong-23-teeth-primary-64-teeth_93445300

https://www.sip-scootershop.com/en/product/clutch-cover-piaggio_93160000

https://www.sip-scootershop.com/en/product/pressure-plate-clutch-sip-xt2000-20_50041000

Hec

Last edited by Hec In Omaha on Sat, 08 Apr 2023 04:04:02 +0000; edited 1 time

Stock flywheel, I imagine.
The Vape flywheel is both lighter and mass more centered vs stock.
At about 9:00 in video below.

Btw I miss that 166. That was fun.

You should be good with the new clutch. Opening should be big enough with your new clutch nut.

So after work today OCD kicked in and I went digging through my tools looking for my carb pop off test kit for measuring pop-off pressure and also to check leaks that can be coming from the inlet seat, inlet needle, carburetor diaphragm, and gaskets or the carburetor pump plates. I used this tool on jet ski Mikuni Carbs and small Walbro Carbs and test for leaks on my Aqua Scooters. I forgot I had it! I swapped out the Schrader valve on my block off plate with a 1/4" hose barb. I pressured up the engine to 5.5 PSI and the needle on the gage is holding steady. This is a way better set up than I was using before. It's very accurate! I can control the pressure within 0.25 PSI. The pop off pump even has a bleed valve on it. The gage is easy to read too. So in the name of science I will leave it connected and see how long it can hold pressure. No more loosing pressure taking pressure readings. I soap tested all connections and so far so good.

Hec


My New Pressure Test Set Up

That looks more like it.


Here's the one I usually use to test bikes that need help.