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FridayMatinee wrote:
what am I missing between the yellow and black wires at the bottom?
I dunno but it looks like where the festoon high beam indicator bulb goes in my VMA2 (except it's not mounted to the headlight itself on my scooter).
https://www.scootermercato.com/Scooter-Parts/Bulbs/F12V3SP
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This is what mine looks like. Original 6v harness though...
I just took this. I thought it was different than yours.
I just took this. I thought it was different than yours.
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Molto Verboso
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Grumpnut wrote:
Looks like a bulb socket. What else is yellow?
Tail light. Yellow goes from back to front, tail light- handlebar switch- headlight doesn't interact with anything else.
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Molto Verboso
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qascooter wrote:
This is what mine looks like. Original 6v harness though...
I have 2 of those, but I'm using a 12v conversion harness, the original one was falling apart.
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Molto Verboso
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I'm working on the ignition today. Finally printed out the degree wheel and glued it to a piece of plastic. I have all the instructions but I'm lost.

Installed the stator and found I have no lines on the cases to line up the marks on the stator. Not sure if I'm going into this blind then. So I then rotated the rotor counterclockwise to the stop put the degree wheel at zero with a piece of wire hanging off a screw on the casing. Then rotated clockwise and got 264°
Divide that by 2 to find TDC at 132°
Then rotated the rotor to have the mark engraved on it line up with the T marking on the stator plate and end up at 326°. Not sure what that means though. That's step 10 in the instructions. Then the instructions just move on to running it. I'm confused by the maths.

Does any of that sound right? Is that how you set the ignition advance or am I missing a step?

In the "example" in the VAPE instructions they use these measurements:

86°
86° / 2 = 43°OT (what the crap does OT mean?)
43° TDC - 23° TIMING MARK = 20° Ignition Advance

My values don't come close to a 20° advance. I'm ending up with 84.5° (264/2=132°TDC. 132°- 23°timing mark = 109° ignition advance? That doesn't sound right at all…

Or am I over thinking it?
⚠️ Last edited by FridayMatinee on UTC; edited 2 times
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Molto Verboso
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Well. It runs. The timing light I got doesn't friggin work though. Unless I'm doing something wrong but I get no light coming out of the light. I have the Innova 3568 one. So no clue currently if the timing is correct.

Lights worked though, well headlight and brake light, no tail light currently.
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FridayMatinee wrote:
In the "example" in the VAPE instructions they use these measurements:

86°
86° / 2 = 43°OT (what the crap does OT mean?)
43° TDC - 23° TIMING MARK = 20° Ignition Advance

My values don't come close to a 20° advance. I'm ending up with 84.5° (215/2=107.5 TDC. 107.5-23°timing mark = 84.5°)

Or am I over thinking it?
This boggled my mind too, when I realized I needed to be working from the opposite number on the degree disc. So there probably are two numbers at each 5 degree mark, one that's a number between 0 and 360, and the other that's that number from 360, so you can measure degrees relative to either direction. Does that make sense?

You can also skip the degree wheel, or double check it, by turning the piston against the stop, making a mark on the case, then turning the other direction, and making a mark on the case. Take a piece of paper to measure these two marks, fold in half and mark the half mark, then put it back and transfer the mark. There's your TDC.

I hope that makes sense.
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Molto Verboso
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spacecat wrote:
This boggled my mind too, when I realized I needed to be working from the opposite number on the degree disc. So there probably are two numbers at each 5 degree mark, one that's a number between 0 and 360, and the other that's that number from 360, so you can measure degrees relative to either direction. Does that make sense?

You can also skip the degree wheel, or double check it, by turning the piston against the stop, making a mark on the case, then turning the other direction, and making a mark on the case. Take a piece of paper to measure these two marks, fold in half and mark the half mark, then put it back and transfer the mark. There's your TDC.

I hope that makes sense.
It does make sense except…I have a degree wheel which only has one set of numbers AND I did mark the cases already. My other issue is with no marks on the case how does one know where that T line on the stator should be lined up? I'm just guessing currently. I have a sharpie mark that is there from when I was trying to diagnose the electrical issues so I put the old stator back in the right position. It's completely arbitrary though. Just took a sharpie and drew a line is all.
My degree wheel goes from 0-360°
My degree wheel goes from 0-360°
Got TDC but how do I find the advance ignition point?
Got TDC but how do I find the advance ignition point?
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Here's a pic by pic of the degree wheel stuff.
Step 6/7 - Rotate rotor clockwise against piston stop and align wheel at 0.
Step 6/7 - Rotate rotor clockwise against piston stop and align wheel at 0.
Step 8 - Rotate counterclockwise to piston stop. 264°
Step 8 - Rotate counterclockwise to piston stop. 264°
Step 9 - TDC divide 264° by 2 to get 132° turn rotor to this number.
Step 9 - TDC divide 264° by 2 to get 132° turn rotor to this number.
Step 10 - rotate rotor and wheel counterclockwise line up the line on rotor to T mark on stator plate.
Step 10 - rotate rotor and wheel counterclockwise line up the line on rotor to T mark on stator plate.
Then read out that measurement. 326°
Then read out that measurement. 326°
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Molto Verboso
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And the VAPE booklet…
Vaped
Vaped
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Those instructions are confusing!

You need to subtract your stop to stop from 360.

So 360-264=96 in your case. Remove the stop and continue in whichever direction you bumped the last stop 48 degrees. That's TDC.

Do it over again to confirm, and look into the plug hole with a flashlight to see if the piston is actually at TDC.

Wanna try my "beta" trick?
Easy to do with a multimeter on continuity function.
Should be the last post in the Tips N Tricks thread. I don't know how to link it here.
https://www.youtube.com/shorts/v7W7rFzUR74
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Once you find TDC, set the degree disc to zero at your TDC indicator. Now read the dial counter-clockwise to find your degrees BTDC. For example, if you are trying to do 18 degrees, on your disc it would be 342.

ETA I ignored the T line on the stator and the mark on the rotor and just paid attention to the tiny degree marks on the stator plate in relation to my own TDC and timing marks I had made on the housing and rotor.
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I know some people find this easy to do. However, for the mathematically challenged (like myself), it can be a nightmare. I finally did figure it out after several tries. I just hope I don't have to do it again anytime soon.
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Molto Verboso
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Thanks for the insight fellas.

So I'm at 360-264= 96°
96°/2 = 48°
Set it to that then did step 10 again and end up at 326°
360°-336°= 34°

Quick assumption is that's way off? Where should my ignition advance be? From poking around here it seems way high. Shouldn't that be around 18-20° ish?

So I gotta rotate the stator plate counter clockwise to lessen those degrees? Do I then measure with calipers the distance from 326° to say 340° and move the stator plate that same distance to get to 20° if that's where I want to be?
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Hey FM - every time I set timing I seem to learn it all over again.

I get it all set in my head, then I try to open my mouth to explain to Chris, and I end up back at square one relearning how I timed it.

All this to say, I'm not even going to try to help because I'll just confuse the situation

The other FM (FreakMoped, our favorite Austrian) has put out a couple vids on the subject that are worth a watch...

https://youtu.be/yMTwoOXIhJI
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Molto Verboso
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qascooter wrote:
Hey FM - every time I set timing I seem to learn it all over again.

I get it all set in my head, then I try to open my mouth to explain to Chris, and I end up back at square one relearning how I timed it.

All this to say, I'm not even going to try to help because I'll just confuse the situation

The other FM (FreakMoped, our favorite Austrian) has put out a couple vids on the subject that are worth a watch...

https://youtu.be/yMTwoOXIhJI
Yeah I've watched that four times already. He glosses over where he gets the numbers. Like he's all 21° is 31.2 what the fuck does that even mean? Where is he pulling the numbers from?

I have TDC found. That was easy. My issue is how do I find the ignition advance point? And how do I mark that to make sure it's right when it is strobed?
With my numbers I'm currently at 34°, which seems way to large.
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FridayMatinee wrote:
Thanks for the insight fellas.

So I'm at 360-264= 96°
96°/2 = 48°
Set it to that then did step 10 again and end up at 326°
360°-336°= 34°

Quick assumption is that's way off? Where should my ignition advance be? From poking around here it seems way high. Shouldn't that be around 18-20° ish?

So I gotta rotate the stator plate counter clockwise to lessen those degrees? Do I then measure with calipers the distance from 326° to say 340° and move the stator plate that same distance to get to 20° if that's where I want to be?
Measure twice? Looked down the spark plug hole?

Once you've confirmed TDC, simplest way is to set your dial to zero there and rotate counter-clockwise to 20 degrees on your wheel.
Then rotate the baseplate (only) to line up the marks.

BTW from points to Vape the advance should be retarded a bit. I'd try 3 degrees and see how it rides. My stock VBC runs better (no other changes) retarded 3-4 degrees, so 18-19 vs 22. The lines on the baseplate are one degree marks, so it's easy to make adjustments later.
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FridayMatinee wrote:
Yeah I've watched that four times already. He glosses over where he gets the numbers. Like he's all 21° is 31.2 what the fuck does that even mean? Where is he pulling the numbers from?
21 degrees is essentially 31.2mm from TDC. It's very close to 1.5mm per degree and that is what he was saying....I think.... Razz emoticon
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FridayMatinee wrote:
Thanks for the insight fellas.

So I'm at 360-264= 96°
96°/2 = 48°
I think what this tells you is that when your piston is stopped because of the piston stop, it is 48 degrees away from TDC. If you have turned the crank clockwise, it is 48 degrees BTDC. If you have turned it counter clockwise, it is ATDC.

So, make sure the piston is stopped BTDC.

Put your degree disc at 48 degrees at your wire marker. Take the piston stop out. Turn the rotor clockwise to zero, keeping the disc locked to the rotor. There is TDC. Mark it on the case and rotor.

Now, turn back your required degrees BTDC and mark it on the case so it matches with the mark on the rotor.

I hope that made sense. And FWIW, that video confused me even more. I had to really sort through the excited mumbling and constant making of marks to get what he was up to.

ETA: After this, you hope that the marks on the engine case for the stator plate are reasonably accurate and you just match the ones on the VAPE stator plate to those. The marks you are making on the case are to confirm with a timing light that the marks on the stator plate are right and to calibrate to reality if they are not.
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I found the degree wheel confusing as f. I like FMP version. You need a metric measuring tape. I have a tailoring tape that is metric on one side. 1.5mm per 1 degree of timing. I also cut down my piston stop to narrow the gap between tdc and bdc
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Just reading your question a little more carefully. Were there marks at the stator plate on the engine case already? You can assume they are in the ball park and then just use the marks you make to find BTDC to confirm/calibrate to what's actually happening with the strobe.

Can you show a picture of the stator mount? (I dunno what it's called.)
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FridayMatinee wrote:
Thanks for the insight fellas.

So I'm at 360-264= 96°
96°/2 = 48°
Set it to that then did step 10 again and end up at 326°
360°-336°= 34°
Sorry, 360-336 is 24 degrees which is the right ball park. So was it 326 or 336?
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spacecat wrote:
Sorry, 360-336 is 24 degrees which is the right ball park. So was it 326 or 336?
Sorry! It's 326° checked 6 times.
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spacecat wrote:
Just reading your question a little more carefully. Were there marks at the stator plate on the engine case already? You can assume they are in the ball park and then just use the marks you make to find BTDC to confirm/calibrate to what's actually happening with the strobe.

Can you show a picture of the stator mount? (I dunno what it's called.)
There's no marks on the case. I did have a sharpie mark that I removed as it was for the old stator and was only a mark so that I put it back on in the position I removed it from.
Stator plate pic.
Stator plate pic.
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Ray8 wrote:
Measure twice? Looked down the spark plug hole?

Once you've confirmed TDC, simplest way is to set your dial to zero there and rotate counter-clockwise to 20 degrees on your wheel.
Then rotate the baseplate (only) to line up the marks.

BTW from points to Vape the advance should be retarded a bit. I'd try 3 degrees and see how it rides. My stock VBC runs better (no other changes) retarded 3-4 degrees, so 18-19 vs 22. The lines on the baseplate are one degree marks, so it's easy to make adjustments later.
I have no marks though. So I guess what I need is where do I mark the case around the stator plate to know where TDC is so that I can then retard it? Essentially I'm just guessing where the stator plate should line up, and I'm at 34° advance so do I rotate the stator counter clockwise the 14° or 14mm. I guess I can mark the bottom of the case where the marks on stator plate are then move 14mm from there? And measure and mark from the TDC mark I have on the case up top to mark 18 or 19° then strobe it and adjust if needed from there?

The no markings on the case are throwing me honestly. I'm probably over thinking that part.
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How do you know you are 34 degrees advanced? From checking with a timing light or ???

Nevermind, I see what step 10 is. Let me process this a minute.
⚠️ Last edited by spacecat on UTC; edited 1 time
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spacecat wrote:
How do you know you are 34 degrees advanced? From checking with a timing light or ???
Just the numbers. That's the number I end up with at the end of step 10. Or am I at 25° ignition advance? If I take my 48° TDC and subtract the 23° timing mark I get 25°. Going off that last example they use in the book I think that's where I'm at currently.

Their example:
43° TDC - 23° timing mark = 20° ignition advance

Mine:
48° TDC - 23° timing mark = 25° ignition advance ( I think?)

My strobe arrived DOA. Doesn't light up so I gotta get a new one.
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OK, You are going to need to make your own marks. You will need to make 2 sets, I think. I am just going on what I understand about how this works, not necessarily best practice so I may be reinventing wheels.

So at step 9, you ended up with 48 degrees and then you turned the rotor to 48. That is TDC. Make a mark on the engine case and on the rotor where you will be able to see it to strobe.

In step 10, which I find confusing, you are basically finding out where those two marks line up -- the T mark and the laser mark on the rotor. So if your math is right, that's 25 degrees BTDC.

Now you can make marks on the engine case that correspond with your marks on the stator. I see in your picture there are about 25 1-degree marks at the bottom of the stator plate. Carefully scribe some matches on the engine case here, so you can calibrate. So then, turn the stator base plate clockwise by 5 marks (that you just made) to get to 20 BTDC.

Tighten the screws, check it with the strobe light when you get the new one. (I'd give the strobe light another shot, in your shoes, and double check where I put the sensor on the spark plug wire, just because I distrust myself, and would have nothing to lose in trying again.)

I hope if I've given you bad advice someone will weigh in, but that's what I'd do in your shoes.

Another way you can check is with a dial gauge. This will physically measure how many degrees from TDC you are, and it's how I set up my Malossi kit years ago, but you either need one with a long pokey thing (this is the technical term) or to have the cylinder head off.
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SORRY I accidentally quoted myself when I just meant to edit to add a couple details I forgot.
spacecat wrote:
OK, You are going to need to make your own marks. You will need to make 2 sets, I think. I am just going on what I understand about how this works, not necessarily best practice so I may be reinventing wheels.

So at step 9, you ended up with 48 degrees and then you turned the rotor to 48. That is TDC. Make a mark on the engine case and on the rotor where you will be able to see it to strobe. ETA: You will also use the disc to determine where 20 degrees (or your desired timing) BTDC is and make a mark fro that on both the case and the rotor (and later probably transfer this to the fan as well).

In step 10, which I find confusing, you are basically finding out where those two marks line up -- the T mark and the laser mark on the rotor. So if your math is right, that's 25 degrees BTDC.

Now you can make marks on the engine case that correspond with your marks on the stator. I see in your picture there are about 25 1-degree marks at the bottom of the stator plate. Carefully scribe some matches on the engine case here, so you can calibrate. So then, turn the stator base plate clockwise by 5 marks (that you just made) to get to 20 BTDC.

ETA now mark this on the rotor and engine case at the top too so you can see them to strobe.

Tighten the screws, check it with the strobe light when you get the new one. (I'd give the strobe light another shot, in your shoes, and double check where I put the sensor on the spark plug wire, just because I distrust myself, and would have nothing to lose in trying again.)

I hope if I've given you bad advice someone will weigh in, but that's what I'd do in your shoes.

Another way you can check is with a dial gauge. This will physically measure how many degrees from TDC you are, and it's how I set up my Malossi kit years ago, but you either need one with a long pokey thing (this is the technical term) or to have the cylinder head off.
⚠️ Last edited by spacecat on UTC; edited 1 time
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The two sets of marks are on the engine case above the rotor for TDC and your desired timing BTDC and then your own marks that match the stator plate on the engine case where they line up with the stator plate.
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Excellent, I'll finish up tomorrow. I've got the case up top marked now just have to mark the bottom and adjust. Check my strobe again and if it won't work just order another, I need a festoon for the headlight anyways.

Thank you all. I'm glad I'm not the only one having trouble with those instructions.
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FridayMatinee wrote:
I have no marks though. So I guess what I need is where do I mark the case around the stator plate to know where TDC is so that I can then retard it?
Make your own reference mark. It doesn't matter where.

You can also leave the wheel positioned and use a calculator:

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UTC quote
Turns out my timing light doesn't work on 2 cycle engines. Even know the ad said it did. Awesome. Gotta get a different one now.

I've got everything ready to strobe now. Still a bit fishy on what fin to mark though. We shall see.
@spacecat avatar
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Hooked
Vespa Primavera 1974
Joined: UTC
Posts: 223
Location: Nebraska USA
 
Hooked
@spacecat avatar
Vespa Primavera 1974
Joined: UTC
Posts: 223
Location: Nebraska USA
UTC quote
Since you can put the fan on any way the bolt holes line up, the first mark you make on a fin may not line up any more next time you take it off. I went ahead and made a mark on the rotor to remind me how I had the fan aligned to the bolts so I could reuse the same mark to strobe with the fan on. But the nice thing about the VAPE is that you can strobe just with the rotor on and adjust the timing without having to fXXk around with the woodruff key taking it on and off to turn the stator plate.

Good luck!
OP
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Molto Verboso
1958 Allstate 177VMC, 1962 Allstate, Yamaha Vino 70cc
Joined: UTC
Posts: 1777
Location: Philadelphia
 
Molto Verboso
1958 Allstate 177VMC, 1962 Allstate, Yamaha Vino 70cc
Joined: UTC
Posts: 1777
Location: Philadelphia
UTC quote
Got the new timing light this morning and nothing. Doesn't even turn on. Wtf. I must be doing something wrong. First light at least turned on, just wouldn't strobe. This one has nothing going at all.

So first question. Are Vespas positive or negative ground set ups?

I tried all the different set ups in the instructions and still nothing. So I'm now charging my battery again to see if that's the issue.

Aside from that what else could I be doing wrong?

I tried the following:

Light wire RED to the + terminal and BLACK to - and nothing happening
Light wire RED to the + terminal and BLACK to - with a branch to engine ground
Light wire RED to the + terminal and BLACK to engine ground
Light wire RED to engine ground and BLACK to - terminal

No difference no matter what I did. Any one got any suggestions while I google and YouTube search?
@kowalski avatar
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Hooked
2005 Stellalossi 177 Fe
Joined: UTC
Posts: 450
Location: MA
 
Hooked
@kowalski avatar
2005 Stellalossi 177 Fe
Joined: UTC
Posts: 450
Location: MA
UTC quote
FridayMatinee wrote:
Got the new timing light this morning and nothing. Doesn't even turn on. Wtf. I must be doing something wrong. First light at least turned on, just wouldn't strobe. This one has nothing going at all.

So first question. Are Vespas positive or negative ground set ups?

I tried all the different set ups in the instructions and still nothing. So I'm now charging my battery again to see if that's the issue.

Aside from that what else could I be doing wrong?

I tried the following:

Light wire RED to the + terminal and BLACK to - and nothing happening
Light wire RED to the + terminal and BLACK to - with a branch to engine ground
Light wire RED to the + terminal and BLACK to engine ground
Light wire RED to engine ground and BLACK to - terminal

No difference no matter what I did. Any one got any suggestions while I google and YouTube search?
Test the timing light with a car battery.
OP
UTC

Molto Verboso
1958 Allstate 177VMC, 1962 Allstate, Yamaha Vino 70cc
Joined: UTC
Posts: 1777
Location: Philadelphia
 
Molto Verboso
1958 Allstate 177VMC, 1962 Allstate, Yamaha Vino 70cc
Joined: UTC
Posts: 1777
Location: Philadelphia
UTC quote
Zilch with the car battery as well. That battery is brand new too. Took it out of my truck, has been driven maybe 20 mins on that battery so I know it's full. Shrugs. This is frustrating to say the least.
OP
UTC

Molto Verboso
1958 Allstate 177VMC, 1962 Allstate, Yamaha Vino 70cc
Joined: UTC
Posts: 1777
Location: Philadelphia
 
Molto Verboso
1958 Allstate 177VMC, 1962 Allstate, Yamaha Vino 70cc
Joined: UTC
Posts: 1777
Location: Philadelphia
UTC quote
Ray8 wrote:
Those instructions are confusing!

You need to subtract your stop to stop from 360.

So 360-264=96 in your case. Remove the stop and continue in whichever direction you bumped the last stop 48 degrees. That's TDC.

Do it over again to confirm, and look into the plug hole with a flashlight to see if the piston is actually at TDC.

Wanna try my "beta" trick?
Easy to do with a multimeter on continuity function.
Should be the last post in the Tips N Tricks thread. I don't know how to link it here.
https://www.youtube.com/shorts/v7W7rFzUR74
Gonna try this since I'm having zero luck with timing lights. Just need triple a batteries for the multimeter
@spacecat avatar
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Hooked
Vespa Primavera 1974
Joined: UTC
Posts: 223
Location: Nebraska USA
 
Hooked
@spacecat avatar
Vespa Primavera 1974
Joined: UTC
Posts: 223
Location: Nebraska USA
UTC quote
What's the model of the new timing light?
OP
UTC

Molto Verboso
1958 Allstate 177VMC, 1962 Allstate, Yamaha Vino 70cc
Joined: UTC
Posts: 1777
Location: Philadelphia
 
Molto Verboso
1958 Allstate 177VMC, 1962 Allstate, Yamaha Vino 70cc
Joined: UTC
Posts: 1777
Location: Philadelphia
UTC quote
spacecat wrote:
What's the model of the new timing light?
Bosch but branded as Actron. All info is from Bosch. Just says Actron on the package everything else says Bosch, instructions, warranty etc.
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