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Molto Verboso
1958 Allstate 177VMC, 1962 Allstate, Yamaha Vino 70cc
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Molto Verboso
1958 Allstate 177VMC, 1962 Allstate, Yamaha Vino 70cc
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UTC quote
One positive is I kicked her over and after swapping my bulb holder from my 59Allstate the tail light works!

Now I just need to find a 16-21mm long 12v 3w festoon bulb for the other holder. Anyone got any sources for that? I've been googling and not getting anything. Smallest I've found were 28mm which are too long. 22mm is about as far as I can bend the tabs before they contact the screw that holds the wires.
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Ossessionato
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Strange about the timing light. I hook it up to a car battery. Scooter battery doesn't seem to have enough juice. Usually there is a test light that says you are getting power and a trigger that turns on the strobe. Clip goes on the plug wire. Sometimes it's hard to see. Move it around until the light hits the marks.
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Molto Verboso
1958 Allstate 177VMC, 1962 Allstate, Yamaha Vino 70cc
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Molto Verboso
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UTC quote
orwell84 wrote:
Strange about the timing light. I hook it up to a car battery. Scooter battery doesn't seem to have enough juice. Usually there is a test light that says you are getting power and a trigger that turns on the strobe. Clip goes on the plug wire. Sometimes it's hard to see. Move it around until the light hits the marks.
The whole thing doesn't turn on, so no digital display or anything.
At least the first one lit up when hooked up to the battery. This one doesn't even get that far.
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Veni, Vidi, Posti
'15 GTS300, '86 PX125EFL, '66 VBB, '01 ET4
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UTC quote
one of these days i'm going to switch from a static timing light to a variable one, every time i see this come up i keep meaning to do it
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Molto Verboso
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Molto Verboso
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FridayMatinee wrote:
Gonna try this since I'm having zero luck with timing lights. Just need triple a batteries for the multimeter
I need guinea pigs!

Don't tell anyone, but you don't really need to strobe a Vape if you're certain your marks are correct. And if they aren't, strobing results won't be correct either.

This is my VBC, retarded 4 degrees at the time. Got a dislike from someone who maybe didn't read the description

https://www.youtube.com/shorts/z1_iLmhIsoo
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Molto Verboso
1958 Allstate 177VMC, 1962 Allstate, Yamaha Vino 70cc
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Molto Verboso
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UTC quote
Ray8 wrote:
I need guinea pigs!

Don't tell anyone, but you don't really need to strobe a Vape if you're certain your marks are correct. And if they aren't, strobing results won't be correct either.

This is my VBC, retarded 4 degrees at the time. Got a dislike from someone who maybe didn't read the description

https://www.youtube.com/shorts/z1_iLmhIsoo
I get no beeps anywhere in the rotation.
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Molto Verboso
1958 Allstate 177VMC, 1962 Allstate, Yamaha Vino 70cc
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UTC quote
Took her outside yesterday to get some vitamin D. Kicked her over and tried to get an idle set but couldn't. Would either hang on the revs before settling or would just shut off if I tried to lower the idle.

I gotta figure out the timing light. In the meantime what's a jetting starting point for a VNB with a 20.20 si, drilled filter and SIP road 2?

Currently in the carb is:
40/130 (3.25) idle
140/E3/96


I have on hand the following

Idle jets
50/120
45/120
52/140
50/140

AC
140
150
160

Atomizers
E1
BE4
E3
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Molto Verboso
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FridayMatinee wrote:
I get no beeps anywhere in the rotation.
Damn.
You got a beep touching the two probes together?
One probe inserted in the red wire connector and the other stuck in a bolt hole like the video?

Just did it again. I'm switching to a static CDI from variable, so I used the opportunity re-test the trick and confirm my marks from two years ago with a printed wheel.
I use the Buzzwangle now, which makes this all ridiculously easy.

Removed the flywheel and followed those convoluted instructions using just the rotor to set advance. That mark was spot on, confirmed by the Ray8 trick and strobing. Keep in mind when you strobe it it won't reach the timing (dotted line on the graph) until around 3k rpm.

https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B002KS72GA/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_search_asin_title?ie=UTF8&psc=1
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Molto Verboso
1958 Allstate 177VMC, 1962 Allstate, Yamaha Vino 70cc
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Molto Verboso
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UTC quote
Ray8 wrote:
Damn.
You got a beep touching the two probes together?
One probe inserted in the red wire connector and the other stuck in a bolt hole like the video?

Just did it again. I'm switching to a static CDI from variable, so I used the opportunity re-test the trick and confirm my marks from two years ago with a printed wheel.
I use the Buzzwangle now, which makes this all ridiculously easy.

Removed the flywheel and followed those convoluted instructions using just the rotor to set advance. That mark was spot on, confirmed by the Ray8 trick and strobing. Keep in mind when you strobe it it won't reach the timing (dotted line on the graph) until around 3k rpm.

https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B002KS72GA/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_search_asin_title?ie=UTF8&psc=1
Yeah I even tested the probes on a spool of wire to make sure they were working.
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Molto Verboso
1958 Allstate 177VMC, 1962 Allstate, Yamaha Vino 70cc
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Molto Verboso
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UTC quote
Decided to do a pressure test last night. I didn't get too far as the exhaust stub is just slightly smaller than the VMC so I had to order a new plug. While I waited I went to install the blocking plate, sleeve nuts don't fit through the drilled holes. So I drilled them out to fit. Then the sleeve bolts are too long. While doing this I notice it's very hard to get the nuts on the stud closest to the slide. The threads are crossed. Can't even get a thread cutter onto the stud. I managed to get two nuts on there to remove the stud to replace it and both screws unscrewed together. Sigh.

It's always something. Oh I got the blanking plate installed with washers and regular nuts. Then went to pump to test. Fast leak. Spray some soapy water and find the plug in the exhaust isn't sealed. Tighten and try again. Still not sealed. Tighten again and pump and pop. The bulb pump exploded. Ffs. So had to order a new one of them. At this rate the bike will need a complete tear down and strip to bare metal and repainted and reassembled in order to install the seat… I guess my good luck with the harness and cable install is gone. Back to reality with these monsters.

Worst part is, it was probably fine air leak wise. The idle jet that's in there is very very lean. Kicking myself.
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Molto Verboso
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UTC quote
Jokes on me. Flyside seal is leaky.
Can I replace that without splitting the cases? Or even without removing the engine?

And I see a bunch of videos on replacing it but only for P engines, not finding anything for the oldies aka VNB's.

I should probably check the clutch seal too while I'm here. I assume I remove the clutch to reach that seal?
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Nedminder
62 VBB1T Round Tail W/ leaner sidecar
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Is the seal leaking AT the crank to seal or at the seal to case?

If the latter, I have a bodge fix that proved extremely reliable.
Somewhere on my pages.
Involves some sealer and a large washer from the hardware store.
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Molto Verboso
1958 Allstate 177VMC, 1962 Allstate, Yamaha Vino 70cc
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Molto Verboso
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UTC quote
charlieman22 wrote:
Is the seal leaking AT the crank to seal or at the seal to case?

If the latter, I have a bodge fix that proved extremely reliable.
Somewhere on my pages.
Involves some sealer and a large washer from the hardware store.
I think it's the former. The bubbles are behind the metal part of the seal which seals to the case I assume.
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Nedminder
62 VBB1T Round Tail W/ leaner sidecar
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Caveat emptor: not EVERYONE on this forum ALWAYS agrees with my methods.
🙂

On older cases, the seal can only be replaced from the inside.
On later models - at least on the fly side - they changed this.
For good reason…
Why have to split entire cases for a single west part?

You can see where I'm going with this.

So… I came up with a means to service externally.
If your seal is leaking at the metal to case interface, it can be addressed.
Here: Vintage vespa with sidecar (**Now In Technicolor ! **) (Page 16)

This may help if you want a simpler robust fix.
That said - at some point the rubber will also fail - so you will eventually have to split the cases.
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Ossessionato
79 P200E (Ruby), 62 Allstate (B-62)
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charlieman22 wrote:
Caveat emptor: not EVERYONE on this forum ALWAYS agrees with my methods.
🙂
While this may be true, NOBODY can deny your creative solutions and general badassery to pretty much everything that comes into your sphere. Orange Unicorn, Gates, Kitt, shop extraordinaire, etc, etc....

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Molto Verboso
1958 Allstate 177VMC, 1962 Allstate, Yamaha Vino 70cc
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Molto Verboso
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UTC quote
Welp. Since I gotta replace a seal I might as well rebuild the whole dang motor. Probably hasn't been done in years so it's due anyways. I'll tackle that later, in the meantime I'm going to throw my VMC177 in her belly so I can ride this summer at least. Half way there already. Motor arrived last night and I got the swing arm bolt installed after a pressure test showed no needle movement after 20 mins. Forgot I'm putting a px engine in and I need to swap over the suspension extension bolt, and well I may as well just swap the whole get up instead. So I'm there now. Breaking for a wicked late lunch and will finish up after. Should be good to ride tomorrow or Monday so long as I don't hit any hiccups.

I desperately need a ride.
In she goes. Always helpful to remember the carb box needs to be off when you put the engine in… this time I remembered at least!
In she goes. Always helpful to remember the carb box needs to be off when you put the engine in… this time I remembered at least!
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Molto Verboso
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Done and dusted. Well I didn't smoke dust I mean….

Or did I?

Anyways engine is in and I went for a short ride. I gotta get a sound recording of it next time. Extremely choppy up to about 5/8 throttle then I hits and you best be holding on.

Idle is 60/160
Stack is 120/BE3/140 didn't run down the main today. Was going to but ran outta time.

The idle was struggling to come back down so while I was fiddling with the mix screw I stopped and tried to choke trick and the engine cut out immediately when I pulled the choke. Seems I'm rich then right? Or do I have that backwards?
B9ES plug after cruising around for a bit.
B9ES plug after cruising around for a bit.
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yeah if choke makes it worse you're already on the rich side, plus that plug...

but then again, if idle is struggling to come down, i might take that back.

hanging throttle cable, sticking slide maybe?
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Molto Verboso
1958 Allstate 177VMC, 1962 Allstate, Yamaha Vino 70cc
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Molto Verboso
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UTC quote
sdjohn wrote:
yeah if choke makes it worse you're already on the rich side, plus that plug...

but then again, if idle is struggling to come down, i might take that back.

hanging throttle cable, sticking slide maybe?
Gonna look into the throttle and slide, completely possible the slide sticks still. Had that issue when this motor was in the other bike. There's no air leaks at least, unless one appeared overnight. Could always run a second pressure test as well to be safe. I'll check the cable and slide first.
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79 P200E (Ruby), 62 Allstate (B-62)
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Yo FM - finally made it to talk with Ron of Ron's Paint. He's currently mixing up some 62 Allstate paint, single stage.

It'll be ready next week
Headset?
Headset?
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Molto Verboso
1958 Allstate 177VMC, 1962 Allstate, Yamaha Vino 70cc
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qascooter wrote:
Yo FM - finally made it to talk with Ron of Ron's Paint. He's currently mixing up some 62 Allstate paint, single stage.

It'll be ready next week
Bodacious!
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qascooter wrote:
Yo FM - finally made it to talk with Ron of Ron's Paint. He's currently mixing up some 62 Allstate paint, single stage.

It'll be ready next week
So gimme some more details on the brand as well as a paint code for what you're getting mixed up. Is there a data sheet for it?
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79 P200E (Ruby), 62 Allstate (B-62)
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whodatschrome wrote:
So gimme some more details on the brand as well as a paint code for what you're getting mixed up. Is there a data sheet for it?
Not much to go on. Ron digs mixing paint for hot rods. He made up a batch a while back (that can in the picture) that was spot on. So he's got the mixture documented in a file with my name on it. When I pick up the paint, I'll ask him the specifics.
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Molto Verboso
1958 Allstate 177VMC, 1962 Allstate, Yamaha Vino 70cc
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Ok got out today for some more shenanigans.
Upped my idle jet from 60/160 (2.66) to the only richer one I have 50/120 (2.40)

Hanging rpm's are gone.
With a 140 main it didn't rev out obviously and I noticed the choppiness of the throttle cleared up around 3/4 throttle.
Worked my way back down to 128 and the choppiness disappears just past 1/4 throttle now. So getting there.

I did have the mix screw accidentally all the way in on one run and it still ran though so I'm not sure if I'm close on that but at least the rpm's aren't hanging anymore.

Here's a sound video of the lower RPM range from a 3 min ride home from my wife's office.
Current jetting is 50/120 120/BE3/128
⚠️ Last edited by FridayMatinee on UTC; edited 1 time
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i'm pretty sure if your engine still runs with the mix screw in, it means your air screw is too far in and you're running off the main. since it didn't die with the mix screw in, probably want to look at that.
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Style Maven
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Air screw, mix screw - now I'm confused Crying or Very sad emoticon
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Molto Verboso
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sdjohn wrote:
i'm pretty sure if your engine still runs with the mix screw in, it means your air screw is too far in and you're running off the main. since it didn't die with the mix screw in, probably want to look at that.
If the slide screw is too far in you'll open the progression channel.
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Ray8 wrote:
If the slide screw is too far in you'll open the progression channel.
an elegant and proper way to say what I was trying to say....
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V oodoo wrote:
Air screw, mix screw - now I'm confused Crying or Very sad emoticon
air screw is the long one that goes through the air filter

mix screw at the back of the carb where you adjust through the carb box
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Thanks, I do get it now, but I call your air screw my idle adjust.
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Molto Verboso
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Probably a throttle cable length issue. I gotta turn the idle screw a bunch before it engages then I have 1 3/4 turns till it's maxed out. Will run a new inner hopefully today, but it's 96° in my workshop so…… maybe not. Outside it's much better. The shade is okay though but still it's humid as sin. The kid of weather that when you open your door the air punches you in the stomach.
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FridayMatinee wrote:
Idle is 60/160
Stack is 120/BE3/140 didn't run down the main today. Was going to but ran outta time.

The idle was struggling to come back down so while I was fiddling with the mix screw I stopped and tried to choke trick and the engine cut out immediately when I pulled the choke. Seems I'm rich then right? Or do I have that backwards?
Hey Friday,
How did you come up with that choice for jetting?
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Molto Verboso
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So did some experiments and I'm ordering a new carb.

First step was to redo the throttle cable. Zeroed everything out except the barrel adjuster, the one is a few turns out for later fine tuning once the cable stretches a little bit. So removed the idle screw and set the slide all the way in and ran the new cable. Slide sticks a bit. So I loosened the carb bolts and retorqued to 10ft lbs. which is the lower torque suggestion. Still sticks.

I am also laughing kinda not really. I removed the headlight to access the throttle cable and ALL of the headlight retaining clips were unseated. Those newly made ones blow at doing their job.


So question I have now is should I run the engine with a 20.20 carb I have while I wait for a 24.24 to ship? Would the jetting be the same-ish?
Sticks here. Throttle grip at the bars is full closed… bummer.
Sticks here. Throttle grip at the bars is full closed… bummer.
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Molto Verboso
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Never mind about swapping in the 20.20 it'll be more of a pain than it's worth considering that one is non injected. So I ordered a new 24.24 and paid for next day shipping. I'll have to drill out the float hole though.
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the 20.20 would jet in similar with a smaller main, at least that's how it rolled in my P200. so if you started with 24.24 jetting, you would just keep cutting the main until it was happy.
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Molto Verboso
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sdjohn wrote:
the 20.20 would jet in similar with a smaller main, at least that's how it rolled in my P200. so if you started with 24.24 jetting, you would just keep cutting the main until it was happy.
Thanks! At least I'll know in the future.

Torqued the carb down to the point of the slide binding then backed out a little till it closed itself. Buttoned her up and went for a spin with the following jetting:
140/BE3/128
60/160
Mix screw 2 turns out. Started at 2.5 with choppiness then stopped and adjusted. Better but not perfect. Will go again tomorrow.

Still choppy up to 1/8 throttle but a much more pleasant of a ride since crushing around at 1/4 throttle wasn't choppy as all hell.
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Molto Verboso
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Continuing on, went for another short ish ride today.

60/160 mix screw 2 turns out still choppy up to 1/4 throttle
120/BE3/128

Tried the 140 AC yesterday and the only difference I could tell was slight pops when throttle is closed and coasting. The whole bike kinda sags right before the pop then jumps ahead slightly when the pop pops. If that makes any sense?

Here's a brand new plug that I did a 30 second uphill WOT in second gear with

Max temp was 267° with the probe installed in the cylinder head below the plug.
Not quite as black and wet as before
Not quite as black and wet as before
@ray8 avatar
UTC

Molto Verboso
Joined: UTC
Posts: 1744
Location: Los Angeles
 
Molto Verboso
@ray8 avatar
Joined: UTC
Posts: 1744
Location: Los Angeles
UTC quote
FridayMatinee wrote:
Continuing on, went for another short ish ride today.

60/160 mix screw 2 turns out still choppy up to 1/4 throttle
120/BE3/128

Tried the 140 AC yesterday and the only difference I could tell was slight pops when throttle is closed and coasting. The whole bike kinda sags right before the pop then jumps ahead slightly when the pop pops. If that makes any sense?

Here's a brand new plug that I did a 30 second uphill WOT in second gear with

Max temp was 267° with the probe installed in the cylinder head below the plug.
I've never seen color on the insulator like that on a plug chop
With a cheap (lighted) jeweler's loupe you should be able to see the ring at the base of the insulator. Should be easy to see with a 120/BE3/128

Did you order a not-reworked Spaco?
If so, migrate your Pinasco float assembly over to it. Maybe also migrate the slide and mixture screw(?).

Is this what you're hearing?

OP
UTC

Molto Verboso
1958 Allstate 177VMC, 1962 Allstate, Yamaha Vino 70cc
Joined: UTC
Posts: 1769
Location: Philadelphia
 
Molto Verboso
1958 Allstate 177VMC, 1962 Allstate, Yamaha Vino 70cc
Joined: UTC
Posts: 1769
Location: Philadelphia
UTC quote
Ray8 wrote:
I've never seen color on the insulator like that on a plug chop
With a cheap (lighted) jeweler's loupe you should be able to see the ring at the base of the insulator. Should be easy to see with a 120/BE3/128

Did you order a not-reworked Spaco?
If so, migrate your Pinasco float assembly over to it. Maybe also migrate the slide and mixture screw(?).

Is this what you're hearing?

Yeah that's the popping sound I have as well.
Got a standard 24.24 since Mercato had it in stock. I got the mix screw sorted already, that socket end one it comes with is wild.
And I'll definitely be swapping the float assembly since that one is spring loaded.
@gickspeed avatar
UTC

Molto Verboso
Joined: UTC
Posts: 1993
Location: Racing Capital of the World
 
Molto Verboso
@gickspeed avatar
Joined: UTC
Posts: 1993
Location: Racing Capital of the World
UTC quote
Mike, I ran your engine for 210 miles in 4 days. The jetting, while rich, was 160/be3/128 in a Pinasco 24.24 ER. I ran this engine in the range of 55-60 mph. The transition to/from idle was smooth.

You can machine the fuel mixture screw to standard to get your standard fuel mixture screw plug to fit. The adjustment screw is different; you cannot switch out with the earlier style.

Hope it helps.
Mike's engine in my 1964 Allstate.
Mike's engine in my 1964 Allstate.
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