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Molto Verboso
1958 Allstate 177VMC, 1962 Allstate, Yamaha Vino 70cc
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Molto Verboso
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UTC quote
Here's the plug from todays ride with Mr. Gick's jetting.
160/BE3/125
60/160

Runs with the mix screw all the way in. Still choppy till 1/8 or 1/4 throttle. Going to try a leaner idle tomorrow.
Not as wet as yesterday but still very very black.
Not as wet as yesterday but still very very black.
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Molto Verboso
1958 Allstate 177VMC, 1962 Allstate, Yamaha Vino 70cc
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Molto Verboso
1958 Allstate 177VMC, 1962 Allstate, Yamaha Vino 70cc
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UTC quote
Todays rides had ups and downs.

Started off with 60/160 idle. Way too lean. Took her out and the engine raced as soon as I grabbed the clutch. Went home and went to a 55/160 which is stock on a 24.24 as you know, so rich it wouldn't idle. Looked everywhere for the jets I had in between and could only find a 52/140. Too lean so I kept looking and finally found my 50/140 jet hiding in the carb of the VNB motor that's in the stand…. Ffs. I looked for hours.

Anywho I popped that in and went for a ride with this setup

140/BE3/132 (going to work my way down soon, I didn't even check WOT in 2nd)
50/140 1.5 turns out on the mix screw.

ALMOST THERE!!!
Choppy only coming off of zero now. So 0-1/8 throttle. Much much better. Made a sound recording and took a plug picture of just cruising around. Ran pretty dang well. Best ride I've had on this pain in the ass of a machine. I didn't even bring the fucker back into the shop I'm so excited.

We're finally getting close.

Plug view number 1
Plug view number 1
Plug view 2
Plug view 2
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Hooked
2005 Stellalossi 177 Fe
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UTC quote
FridayMatinee wrote:
Todays rides had ups and downs.

Started off with 60/160 idle. Way too lean. Took her out and the engine raced as soon as I grabbed the clutch. Went home and went to a 55/160 which is stock on a 24.24 as you know, so rich it wouldn't idle. Looked everywhere for the jets I had in between and could only find a 52/140. Too lean so I kept looking and finally found my 50/140 jet hiding in the carb of the VNB motor that's in the stand…. Ffs. I looked for hours.

Anywho I popped that in and went for a ride with this setup

140/BE3/132 (going to work my way down soon, I didn't even check WOT in 2nd)
50/140 1.5 turns out on the mix screw.

ALMOST THERE!!!
Choppy only coming off of zero now. So 0-1/8 throttle. Much much better. Made a sound recording and took a plug picture of just cruising around. Ran pretty dang well. Best ride I've had on this pain in the ass of a machine. I didn't even bring the fucker back into the shop I'm so excited.

We're finally getting close.

Something is getting lost in translation. A 60/160 is richer than a 55/160. A 52/140 is richer than a 50/140.
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Molto Verboso
1958 Allstate 177VMC, 1962 Allstate, Yamaha Vino 70cc
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Molto Verboso
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UTC quote
Ah dang it I jumbled me thoughts all around.
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Molto Verboso
1958 Allstate 177VMC, 1962 Allstate, Yamaha Vino 70cc
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Molto Verboso
1958 Allstate 177VMC, 1962 Allstate, Yamaha Vino 70cc
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UTC quote
Now I in the waiting part of this rebuild. Just waiting for disposable income to buy the crank.

Got all the seals in and the rear hub bearing replaced. Cruciform looked great. Couldn't see any wear at all. Same with the gears. Looks like it doesn't have many miles on it. Must have sat for a long time.

Aside from rebuilding the Cush drive, which I didn't do, this process has been pretty smooth so far. Even the needle bearings in the Cush went flawlessly. Enjoying the easy days!
Clean as a whistle
Clean as a whistle
Ready for a crankshaft.
Ready for a crankshaft.
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Style Maven
'74 50s x3 '78 P200 E '84 Cosa '91 PK50XL2 - & - '58 AllState '68 Sprint '66(?) Super125 and '72 DanMotor Super150
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So this is your backup stock style motor? It looks like it's in great unmolested condition.

Something a little extra enjoyable about not in a hurry rebuilding an old motor that's still in good original shape, nobody's made lousy fixes and there's little wear. I remember it well on the low mile Bajaj motor in my AllState that had only a rusty top end & crank, but a new looking drivetrain etc. I'm hoping this next project will be similar.
External inline image provided by member with no explanatory text

Will this Super motor in a box will clean up OK, looks like the water stayed out of the gears at least? I should know more soon (My hero macgerk is getting it from Eugene up to Tualitin soon for me, what a PRINCE! Clap emoticon). Oh, and I will have one of these waiting for it TOO, thanks to Mr Ray8!
External inline image provided by member with no explanatory text
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Molto Verboso
1958 Allstate 177VMC, 1962 Allstate, Yamaha Vino 70cc
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Molto Verboso
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UTC quote
V oodoo wrote:
So this is your backup stock style motor? It looks like it's in great unmolested condition.

Something a little extra enjoyable about not in a hurry rebuilding an old motor that's still in good original shape, nobody's made lousy fixes and there's little wear. I remember it well on the low mile Bajaj motor in my AllState that had only a rusty top end & crank, but a new looking drivetrain etc. I'm hoping this next project will be similar.
External inline image provided by member with no explanatory text

Will this Super motor in a box will clean up OK, looks like the water stayed out of the gears at least? I should know more soon (My hero macgerk is getting it from Eugene up to Tualitin soon for me, what a PRINCE! Clap emoticon). Oh, and I will have one of these waiting for it TOO, thanks to Mr Ray8!
External inline image provided by member with no explanatory text
This motor will be going back into Bluey and the VMC will then be moved back over to the bare metal Allstate for whence it came.

I've got a SIP road 2.0 for it, and the Vape ignition and a 20.20 carb as the only upgrades I'm doing on this one. Maybe a Vespa fork. I have a stiffer spring installed now and will see if that's enough once I get her all back together.
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Molto Verboso
1958 Allstate 177VMC, 1962 Allstate, Yamaha Vino 70cc
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Molto Verboso
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UTC quote
I can't seem to find any video of this specific tool being used, does anyone have any tips on how this thing works?

All I know is it's used on the flywheel side of the case. Aside from that I'm lost.

https://www.sip-scootershop.com/en/product/tool-crankshaft-flywheel-clutch-side-assembly_10052700


One more crank install question, do the bearings get seated all the way down or is there supposed to be a gap and if so what is that gap?
Thanks!

Going to try to install the crank tomorrow. Hopefully. It's in the freezer tonight and I'll heat the bearings in the morning to slide them on. Any advice would be appreciated it's my first crank install.
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79 P200E (Ruby), 62 Allstate (B-62)
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UTC quote
Do the electrical tape trick after the bearing is installed like Robot does in the vid to ensure you don't catch a seal.

And heat up the cases to drop the bearings in. Watch out that you don't melt the seals though!

Good luck - you got this!
⚠️ Last edited by qascooter on UTC; edited 1 time
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the VBB/VNB bearings get seated fully onto the crank.

There is no need to freeze the crank or heat the bearings, they can be tapped onto the crank with a tool like this https://www.sip-scootershop.com/en/product/chuck-bearing-ring-crankshaft-flywheel-side-sip-assembly_31155760

A pipe of the right ID will also work. I normally use an aluminum wedge between the crank webs to give them a bit more stability, hold the crank in my lap with one hand with the pipe/tool in place over the bearing, and then tap the bearing into place with a hammer.
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Lucky
76 Sprint V, 63 GL, 62 VBB, 05 Stella, 66 Smallstate
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I use my crank puller to install the bearings onto the crank. Same as the flyside bearing race on a P-series motor.
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chandlerman wrote:
I use my crank puller to install the bearings onto the crank. Same as the flyside bearing race on a P-series motor.
that's an even better option.
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Molto Verboso
1958 Allstate 177VMC, 1962 Allstate, Yamaha Vino 70cc
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Molto Verboso
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UTC quote
Bearings went on easily. Slid right on with heat on the bearings and freezing the crank.

Now I need to install said cranks… anyone have any instructions for the crank install tool I posted? It's specifically for the VNB VBB and Sprint engines. All the videos are for later engines it seems.
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Lucky
76 Sprint V, 63 GL, 62 VBB, 05 Stella, 66 Smallstate
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oopsclunkthud wrote:
that's an even better option.
That multi-tip SIP crank puller is like my Swiss Army Knife. I've also used it to pull both front and rear axles, and other stuff I'm forgetting off the top of my head.
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Molto Verboso
1958 Allstate 177VMC, 1962 Allstate, Yamaha Vino 70cc
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Molto Verboso
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UTC quote
Well, a little bit of heat and a cold crank and she slid right in the clutch side. Flyside took a little more work but wasn't absolutely terrible. Even gave a blood sacrifice for my troubles. Gotta get a better nut for the clutch, PO replaced the castle nut but put a janky one in. So gotta fix that.

Clutch is on, stator and flywheel is up next then we can pressure test and see how bad I fucked it all up!
Sacrificial blood. Don't need that part of my finger anyways.
Sacrificial blood. Don't need that part of my finger anyways.
Little wiggle wiggle little tappy tap and she's seated.
Little wiggle wiggle little tappy tap and she's seated.
Getting there.
Getting there.
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79 P200E (Ruby), 62 Allstate (B-62)
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Looking good brother. Did you remember the kickstart gear? Razz emoticon
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Molto Verboso
1958 Allstate 177VMC, 1962 Allstate, Yamaha Vino 70cc
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Molto Verboso
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UTC quote
qascooter wrote:
Looking good brother. Did you remember the kickstart gear? Razz emoticon
That I did! That statement definitely ran through my head until I made sure it was in there. Sprayed the base gasket with copper spray last night gonna do the other side today then I'll put the cylinder on.
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Molto Verboso
1958 Allstate 177VMC, 1962 Allstate, Yamaha Vino 70cc
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Molto Verboso
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UTC quote
Got the cylinder on and started the pressure test.
Not terrible. Slow leak somewhere so went hunting. Found it on the bottom of the base gasket. Tried torquing the cylinder head nuts a little more as I was at the bottom of the torque range. Retested. Still leaking. Went and double checked the case bolts. They were all a bit loose. Pressure test again. Still leaking. So removed the cylinder and removed the gasket. It was the original metal one. Whoops. Forgot to replace that one. Grabbed a fiber one cause I have it and sprayed it with copper spray just to be extra juicy. That's drying now so should be ready to test a little later.

Did find one ut oh though…
Well shit. I sure hope my timing is right….
Well shit. I sure hope my timing is right….
⬆️    About 2 months elapsed    ⬇️
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Molto Verboso
1958 Allstate 177VMC, 1962 Allstate, Yamaha Vino 70cc
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Molto Verboso
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UTC quote
Short update…

Tried getting this thing running properly but no matter what jetting I tried it just sounded off. Way off… you may see where this is headed.
I remembered the adage here "90% of all carb problems are electrical"

Sure enough when I took the plug out to see if my TDC lined up with the piston actually being at the top. Nope. I only marked it quickly so didn't measure but I was running it like 35° BTDC lol. Realized it's my piston stopper, it's a long one. Need a short one for this guy.
So I'll go over that again this week.
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Molto Verboso
1958 Allstate 177VMC, 1962 Allstate, Yamaha Vino 70cc
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Molto Verboso
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UTC quote
So I got all that I needed including a buzzwangle timing device. Did all that and go to strobe it so I can move the stator into proper position. The VAPE markings don't line up no matter what I do. So I tried to kick it over and just see where I'm at so I can then adjust the stator. I can not for the fucking life of me get ANY timing lights to work. I'm on my third one. This one is a D cell powered one so I don't need to worry about an external power source. Kick it over and put the lead on the spark plug wire and the strobe won't turn on. The flashlight on the light works. No strobe.

I'm losing my mind.

Can I just use a regular old fashioned party time strobe light?
This is so annoying.

Side question- I got a 150 cylinder I was gonna swap over to replace the stock 125. Should I do that swap BEFORE I try to time it? Does a 125 and 150 have different TDC points? No sense setting up the 125 to just switch it again but my thought was get the timing right then switch over.
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parallelogramerist
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I've had on again off again issues with my 12v (alligator clips) strobe light working (as in actually making a strobe) on my VAPE units. I only have the variable timing versions. I can't say if it's an issue with the static version. The strobe works fine on my stock stators.
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Lucky
76 Sprint V, 63 GL, 62 VBB, 05 Stella, 66 Smallstate
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Lucky
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UTC quote
Just to be 100% sure...do you have spark at all?

Like...can you get spark on a plug just grounded to the motor?
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79 P200E (Ruby), 62 Allstate (B-62)
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UTC quote
Hmmm....

I always use a spare 12v motorcycle or car battery to power the strobe. Takes one thing out of the equation..

Also, the plug wire clamp from the strobe light has to go in a specific direction - it usually has a little arrow on it.
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Molto Verboso
1958 Allstate 177VMC, 1962 Allstate, Yamaha Vino 70cc
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Molto Verboso
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UTC quote
whodatschrome wrote:
I've had on again off again issues with my 12v (alligator clips) strobe light working (as in actually making a strobe) on my VAPE units. I only have the variable timing versions. I can't say if it's an issue with the static version. The strobe works fine on my stock stators.
I'll check my variable one too, this one is static. Any idea if just a regular old strobe would work or does the ignition need the ignition signal to time properly?
chandlerman wrote:
Just to be 100% sure...do you have spark at all?

Like...can you get spark on a plug just grounded to the motor?
Yes spark is good. She starts but dies pretty quickly.
qascooter wrote:
Hmmm....

I always use a spare 12v motorcycle or car battery to power the strobe. Takes one thing out of the equation..

Also, the plug wire clamp from the strobe light has to go in a specific direction - it usually has a little arrow on it.
I did the same.
I've tried a D cell battery powered one, a Ford F150 battery that was brand new and 2 12v scooter batteries. No strobe with any. I don't get it. Wire clamp arrow is definitely facing the spark plug on all tries as well.
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79 P200E (Ruby), 62 Allstate (B-62)
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UTC quote
Hmmm.

I wonder about trying the strobe lights on a different scooter. That would eliminate the light being the issue....
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Hooked
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UTC quote
"Any idea if just a regular old strobe would work or does the ignition need the ignition signal to time properly?"

You need the ignition signal to trigger the strobe. It's not a disco
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Lucky
76 Sprint V, 63 GL, 62 VBB, 05 Stella, 66 Smallstate
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Grumpnut wrote:
It's not a disco
Speak for yourself Razz emoticon
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parallelogramerist
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FridayMatinee wrote:
I'll check my variable one too, this one is static. Any idea if just a regular old strobe would work or does the ignition need the ignition signal to time properly?

I meant that i tried my strobe only on a 12vdc Vape variable timing stator kits, not a Vape static stator kit (ac or dc). My strobe gun happens to be variable as well. It works fine with with the stock stators just fine though. I hook up my strobe to either a scooter or a random car battery.
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Molto Verboso
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FridayMatinee wrote:
So I got all that I needed including a buzzwangle timing device. Did all that and go to strobe it so I can move the stator into proper position. The VAPE markings don't line up no matter what I do. So I tried to kick it over and just see where I'm at so I can then adjust the stator. I can not for the fucking life of me get ANY timing lights to work. I'm on my third one. This one is a D cell powered one so I don't need to worry about an external power source. Kick it over and put the lead on the spark plug wire and the strobe won't turn on. The flashlight on the light works. No strobe.

I'm losing my mind.

Can I just use a regular old fashioned party time strobe light?
This is so annoying.

Side question- I got a 150 cylinder I was gonna swap over to replace the stock 125. Should I do that swap BEFORE I try to time it? Does a 125 and 150 have different TDC points? No sense setting up the 125 to just switch it again but my thought was get the timing right then switch over.
The light of that last strobe you got is very dim. Outside you won't be able to see it.

Set the buzzwangle to 0 at TDC, rotate counter clockwise to your advance and line up the marks. You don't need a strobe to set timing.
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Molto Verboso
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UTC quote
Ray8 wrote:
The light of that last strobe you got is very dim. Outside you won't be able to see it.

Set the buzzwangle to 0 at TDC, rotate counter clockwise to your advance and line up the marks. You don't need a strobe to set timing.
I tried the strobe in the pitch black of my workshop the other night. Zilch.

After reading the last part I went back in the shop to check it all over again. I already marked 18° BTDC on the case so I lined the flywheel fin marking I started with and then took the flywheel off and check the magneto (?) line with the stator marking and I wasn't far off now. So I removed the magneto and loosened up the stator to adjust it and put the magneto back on with the flywheel to make sure I had the base line lined up on the case. Took the flywheel off then shimmied the stator to meet the T line on the stator.
I wasn't so diligent the last time and those lines were WAY off and not able to meet each other. Now it's kosher. Thanks for forcing me to quadruple check!

So that should be 18°. Ok then, I'd still like to use the timing light to check just to be extra sure but I'll run it this way till I figure out how to make them work.

Next up is the 150 cylinder swap. I already set the ring gaps too .023mm with the feeler gauge. Doing it the scooter help way. Set the rings in the lump then push them down with the piston until the wrist pin is halfway covered. Filed till I got them to .023 then put them on the piston. Then I sanded the transfers in the cylinder to smooth them out.
Just gotta clean the barrel out before install now.
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Molto Verboso
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FridayMatinee wrote:
I wasn't so diligent the last time and those lines were WAY off and not able to meet each other. Now it's kosher. Thanks for forcing me to quadruple check!

So that should be 18°. Ok then, I'd still like to use the timing light to check just to be extra sure but I'll run it this way till I figure out how to make them work.
Is the flywheel still off?

Do this twice with your buzzwangle:
Piston stop in. Rotate counter-clockwise until you bump it.
Set it to 0. Rotate clockwise until you bump again. Divide that number by 2. Remove the stop and continue clockwise to that number. Confirm your previous TDC mark(s).
Set it to zero and rotate counter-clockwise to your advance. Check again that the marks T marks are lined up correctly.

That's the timing (dotted line on the diagram). With a strobe you won't see it there at idle (see diagram).
⬆️    About 2 months elapsed    ⬇️
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Molto Verboso
1958 Allstate 177VMC, 1962 Allstate, Yamaha Vino 70cc
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Molto Verboso
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UTC quote
Got the timing sorted with the help of the buzzwangle tool.
Should be 18° now.
Passed the pressure test. So it's good to go.

Got some leg shield trim since I wanna keep the edges not all boogered up like they currently are. They're a bit long and take some adjusting to get on. Broke my last cut off wheel after I trimmed the engine side of the leg shield. So gotta grab some more to fit the other side. Lots of massaging the aluminum trim. LOTS.

Getting there though.
It begins. Figure I got nothing else to do in this crap weather. May as well do this.
It begins. Figure I got nothing else to do in this crap weather. May as well do this.
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Molto Verboso
1958 Allstate 177VMC, 1962 Allstate, Yamaha Vino 70cc
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Molto Verboso
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UTC quote
Got the trim all set up and ready to install. Just waiting on the post office to find the tool that Birbs let me borrow.
Ready to go
Ready to go
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Molto Verboso
1958 Allstate 177VMC, 1962 Allstate, Yamaha Vino 70cc
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Molto Verboso
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UTC quote
Got the crimp tool finally from the USPS. Thanks again Senōr Birbs!

Only took about 15-20 mins total to get it installed. Way easier than I was expecting. Little crimps from top to bottom. Did 3 passes that way on each side, then went back and smoothed them out with a heavy hand. Easy peasy.

Looks great atmo.
Classy. And with a new number sticker.
Classy. And with a new number sticker.
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