Modern Vespa

Bahh, went out to wake Stella up from her slumber, kick start went to ground and was stuck, son of a B!tch. Putzed with it a bit, got kick start to return but something is wrong she kicks over and runs but clicks now, you can hear it and feel it if you rest you're hand on kick start lever. I don't trust her, guess I'll be cracking a set of cases for first time. VSX1T I believe. What tools should I get on order, so I can split her properly?

Any good YouTube videos or training videos? I've read here about shimming gears etc, but I need opening cases an idiots guide for Vespa motors.

Found this video from Scooterwest.

SDJohn mentioned these DVD's going to get them on order, should I order anything else from this store.

https://scooterproducts.com/product/vespa-engine-rebuild-plus-running-maintenance-dvd-bundle/


While I have cases open going to optimize intake, either open up rotary valve or put in reeds from MRP RD 350 setup Already have a Mikuni TMX30 carburetor and bunches of needles and jets. Thinking about reed valves for power and gas mileage as both seem to be better using reeds from reading I've done.

The scooter techniques engine rebuild dvd is the Bible. I followed it for my first rebuild. Was absolutely great.

There's a few Vespa specific tools you'll want: castlenated nut removing tool for your clutch nut, flywheel holder, tool to hold your clutch while tightening/loosening the clutch nut, & that tool to push the gudgeon pin when removing the piston.

Oh and bandaids & beer usually come in handy as well.

I have everything on that list. What I don't have is a tool.to pull crankshaft into bearing.

Shopping list

https://www.scootermercato.com/Scooter-Parts/Factory-Tools/F-2306849

https://www.scootermercato.com/Scooter-Parts/Gasket-Sets/GSP200WOR

https://www.scootermercato.com/Scooter-Parts/Oil-Seals/SEALKIT-P

https://www.scootermercato.com/Scooter-Parts/Buffer/46742

arg.

reeds are going to give you quickest biggest bang for buck - and. you have them - so it would be hard to say no I would think!

new kick start gear - if not already on your list.
some shims perhaps for the gears.
new cruciform and push rod (it unscrews reverse! don't forget)
magnetic oil plug - if you are getting fancy.
and of course - bearings to go with your seals.

tool for pulling the crank in is damn useful.
keep us posted.
you are finally going to get the power you really wanted for the highway - with those reeds - I suspect.

sounds like you bound up the spring or something jumped off. maybe the gear spring fouled up?

if it returned, it's not quad or I'm thinking not spring. so then gear?

tools wise on a crack, besides a flywheel puller and a flywheel holder-- it's gotta go back together at some point! a clutch nut tool and clutch holder and you're good.

since you're jumping in, I'd say go ahead and do a soft parts rebuild if you feel comfortable. but if you're not feeling frisky, at lease knock a new cross in and check the gears.

you're out a gasket kit, a seal, a cross maybe a shim? do it in situ (at least I would) and if you want to party throw some clutch stuff at it.

After watching video, looks like in situ for front half to see what I have wouldn't be that bad. This motor only has a few thousand miles since previous rebuild. Once flywheel is off, I've pulled that a few times and have tools. Does the fly half slide off on a P200 Come without needing any other special tools? Thinking crankshaft fit to bearing in case.

Clutch is a fairly new cosa so I should be good there, although I do want to pull cover and verify oil pump gear as I didn't know about orientation or thickness when I put mine in. I don't have a pump and use premix.

If all is working fine going in and correcting the spring and/or kick start gear should be fine. If you have regular tools and a flywheel puller, a flywheel holder and maybe some gaskets it's a days work for the avg person. Not many miles after a rebuild so stuff should be OK. Adding reeds and/or modifying the rotary valve is some downtime and longer downtime for a first timer. It is riding/rally season. Upgrade season is later this year.

Here's the videos you can use for what you have going on. Bike in motor split takes no time, use the tools you have and don't need to remove the clutch to fix the problems. Just deal with the right side of the motor. If needed installing a new cruciform, kickstart gear, and maybe a gear shim can be done right from there.

Since I don't like bikes being down, I'll split it, fix it and close it. If I don't have an extra gasket and one happens to tear, extra moto seal to the rescue. Back to riding the next day.

Short video and don't have to remove clutch to fix problem like FMP did.
Longer video that show what's done after motor is split.

Moved Stella into garage, watched a few videos, will watch a few more tonight.

If I do this in situ, thinking I may just open rotary pad a bit. That is if I think I can get everything taped off and keep stuff out of bearings etc. Videos I've watched say keep total pad opening between 200-210 max. Starting numbers should be 55-58° ATDC and 85-100° BTDC, for a factory setup.

Suggestions on what to aim for ATDC and BTDC?

I'll keep minimum sealing area of rotary pad to 1mm in all directions. I've got time we still have snow here, plan is to crack her open see what I need and put in an order. Hopefully I'll have the parts to reassemble next weekend.


Jack221 had suggested 120° BTDC for anything with a 30mm or smaller carburetor. I do have a 30mm carburetor.

Norrie suggests 70° ATDC maximum, if I understand correctly adding ATDC timing moves max power up RPM range.

120° BTDC + 60° ATDC is 180° total if I shoot for that.

honestly, because this is your first rodeo, I wouldn't be messing with that. get in, get the work done and get out.

doing that work already has a propensity to go sideways, more so in situ and doubly with all the parts still there. that's bench work really.

My helper

Good news got her apart, bad news don't think it has anything to do with kick start. Found small chunks of non magnetic metal in bottom of engine casing. Looks like a copper or brass color.

Stuck kick start may have been stuck motor can't say I checked. May have chewed up whatever that was between a couple of gears.

Guessing clicking was stuff stuck in spring not allowing start gear to fully retract. Gear doesn't look chewed up at all, if I were inspecting during a rebuild I'd put it back in.

When I bought this motor it had no clutch, could it be a woodruff key? Maybe a push rod for clutch? I just don't know what could be in there non magnetic?

Side note piston top doesn't look bad.

While I have her apart I checked rotary valve timing, for future tuning etc, surprised in what I found. Odd thing is rotary hasn't been touched and I was told it hadn't been. 115° BTDC and 65°ATDC.= 180°.

Long Stroke Crankshaft PINASCO
for Vespa 200 Rally VSE1T 33997 ->/​P200E/​PX200 E/​Lusso/​MY/​Cosa
disc valve
stroke 60.0mm
conrod 110.0mm
Sport - con rod
pin 16mm
valve timing: 123°/6° post TDC
fine balanced
con-rod eye with additional oil holes

That's a whole bunch of clutch swarf!

Best be having a look while you're there!

I'll do that, maybe push rod piece fell off?

If it did you've got big ugly problems!

I'm guessing it's most of a center bush.

That was a bust, nothing obvious.

Is the bevel on oil pump drive gear correct direction? Bevel is facing engine bearing. Isn't there a thickness specification for this? Wasn't Swiss having an issue with his?

Clutch turns good, compressed with clutch tool and it spins good.

broken tooth on Xmas tree?

Have you opened up the clutch?

Looks like copper (not magnetic).

It's not magnetic, aren't gears magnetic?

Not yet, I did compress it and it spins freely.

Oiler gear thrust washer is completely worn out.

Piston crown says jetting is slightly lean.

How can you tell?

They are magnetic. . but throwing out a scientific wild ass guess.

so far your brass pieces look okay. Open up the clutch.

You said there was no clutch when you got the motor. Maybe the previous owner had dropped something inside the gearbox or previous clutch exploded. Those chunks look thick, so maybe it was the push rod, washer or bush that came of the old clutch. Residue and brass "paste" say that it was there and was being "eaten" for quite some time…

man, that's a WHOLE bunch of debris... I'd be pulling the trans down to have a look see at what's cooking in there.

you say that the motor didn't come with the clutch?

on a WAG I'd say PO blew up the clutch and that's the remnants of what transpired.

either way, I'd giving everything the hairy eyeball while open and cleaning in a fastidious manner.

I've been wondering the same thing about a part. What's a woodruff key made of, plated bronze by any chance? Also can't remember if pushrod or other parts were still there.

there's no fuel washout trace

the thrust face of the gear shows wear and the keyway looks a little "meh"

nah, a woodruff key is steel. if you dropped one in and it found the gears you'd get an exciting time at speed as well as an expensive lesson.

Previous owner, sold it and was building a BFA. He pulled clutch and put in another motor. He never had any issues with it. So far everything he told me has been true. No reason to think anything blew up.

something, somewhere at some time had significant wear or experienced a "moment". so it's either what you currently have in there or that happened before your procurement.

with what the shrapnel consists of, that narrows down the field considerably.

like gick said, pull that clutch down.

after that, it's time to go looking.

More Swarf in clutch basket, I'd say it probably source of swarf. Those chunks I still don't know.

Hmm, now what? I know clutch cable isn't pulled to tight, there's was play in lever and I could flex cable a bit underneath and watch handle move.

Basket holds 16 springs VS 8, 8 springs are heavier rated SIP springs and 8 are FA Italia Cosa.

Cork plates are FA Italia and so are steel plates, plates are perforated steel.

This motor is only about 16-18 Hp which SIP sport cosa 2 clutches are supposed to be rated for up to 22 hp.

man, that's just a tremendous amount of junk everywhere.

and not seeing any big time tell-tale signs has me nervous of where it's coming from.

how's the gearbox look?

Something that hit me up just now. Check the bearing on the primary / xmass tree. Old original bearings had a brass ball cage. If it blew up that would explain everything…

beat me to it.
just barely tho.
Black could come out a little further to edge than it does.
Should just be rinsed off a bit at the inlets - but between them black.
See mine below. Brilliant.

Nope, just the opposite. The wash at the transfers indicates more fuel is entering than is being combusted = rich.

I'll take a look in the morning.I do know I was turning everything by hand easily using starter gear I had in my hand. Nothing felt.like it was binding up.

Popped my Vespa Motor Tear Down Cherry. More chunks and I have no idea what they are from. Going to have to get a few cans of carburetor cleaner and clean out as much as I can.

Going to go to scooter mercato website and order gaskets. Maybe seals since I have it apart but motor has less than 2000 miles on it.

Oil cog gear, it's being used as a spacer not driving anything.

I'm leaning towards a chunks of something was in there, gears chewed it up and everything else pulverized it over time.

What's the specifications on the spacer for gear tree, found it 0.15mm to 0.40 mm? Need to get a second set of feeler gauges with thinner shims for measuring. Current spacer is 2.13mm or 0.0840"

Done for now, need a break.

Christopher, is it possible that one of your bearings had a retaining element that has disintegrated? Some form of cage.

Perhaps look up the brand and number (that one is skf) and see if the picture looks different. Maybe the whole cage portion is missing?
Just another guess.
I am skeptical that something was left in there that was that large.
One man's opinion.

What's the status on the bronze clutch plunger? What did that look like?

Primary bearing looks normal (this is how they were). The evidence don't show anything suspicious coming from your parts, so I'd say that something was dropped in the gearbox, before you got the motor and was being chewed up all this time. Probably a clutch push rod...