Modern Vespa

First challenge and I haven't even begun. Removing the clutch. This clutch has a flat and the clutch removal tool doesn't fit in. If I make a flat on the tool, then the clutch will turn with the tool. Help!


See the flat!

Round peg. Square hole.

grind down the out edges of the tool until it fits. SoCal posted a picture of his ground down tool just recently, but I forget which thread.

Edge ground using my lathe . Thats the tool in the drill running against the belt sander. Made it fit. Impact on the nut and BOOM. No real damage. But it came apart. Puller on the clutch. It came out. Oil injection removed properly. Now do I put it back in????

Pics tell the story...

Well, that's one way to bust a nut.

Get a Cosa nut and washer to replace it and the goofy tabbed retainer.

I vote for autolube.

Some more stripping....

Struck me today that the cases are electric start cases. He did not block off the top hole so a bunch of air that should have gone to the shroud was pissing out the hole. Are electric and non-electric cases interchangeable?

The keyway for the flywheel is messed up. Is this a new crank or can it be repaired? Does it make economic sense to repair if it can?

On the clutch, it appears to be missing the shoulder washer behind the drive gear spacer. Lots telling me this is good bones but shoddy workmanship.

Enjoy the pics...


Looks OK

Doesn't look OK

Not sure what happened here!

Don't add wires to the harness if you are totally color blind... WTF!

Cases in good condition but that is definitely a big hole.

Get a new woodruff key. JB weld the key hole. Lap the taper.

Woodruff key question

grab yourself a hole plug for that starter.

https://www.scootermercato.com/Scooter-Parts/Plugs/483859_2

Good excuse to get a 60mm crankshaft, from what I've seen it will pretty much bolt on factory cylinder if you want. Do a Google search for Vespa 208 engine.

mannnn... that crank is questionable. how's the flywheel taper look?

if that crank is something special-- cut or long rod, then I'd try and save it just to be a cheap ass and run it. but if it's a stocker, I'd knock a new one in.

what kind of cylinder is on there would probably be the determining factor of crank choice.

Great question! Please see pics. Looks like damage to the flywheel taper is evident at the same spot as the crank. My guess is that the nut was not torqued properly. Rest of taper looks fine.

I wouldn't run either of those.

2nd'ed, and 3rd'd. Time for a new crank and fly.

im on the new crank, vape DC plan, if its in the budget.
Vape - cause it just works, and works, and works.
DC - cause once you go DC - you will never go back. Lights that work. Safe.
60MM - cause why put a shorter stroke in when you can have a longer stroke. Guys have been saying that forever.
Lots of good options on crank - don't have to break the bank.

it's not the size of the boat man, it's the motion of the ocean.

yeah, yeah, it takes longer to get to Hawaii in a row boat than an ocean liner; but some of us enjoy the trip.

but you and DC can shove it. I went an threw all my batteries in the river. AC forever man.

throwing a hearty +2 or 3? on that shizz is roached dude.

*could* it be slavaged? sure. but, like, how good is your towing plan and how much do you like waiting around at the side of the road?

you already know you gotta jump in there. so, you in for a dollar and not a dime.

at the bare minimum seals, bearings and gaskets. just tack on a crank and touring flywheel and call it. if the stator is roached out and you don't want to tackle that then upgrade the whole thing to a vape.

sell off the hammered bits to take the sting off the investment of that new hotness.

+1 for old school, batteries suck, go AC and never need one again

I just like the bright bright bright LED's you can run with DC. Getting a DC horn is an annoyingly expensive proposition, though.

I am still sticking to my good bones buy. That tunnel!!!

So far my shopping cart at SM is above a grand without the oil injection, crank, Vape, possible cylinder and jug, all the engine internal unknowns, tires, paint and bodywork. Cha-ching, Cha-ching.

Not looking for a rocket ship but want to do it right and reliable. What are the options?

Just look at that tunnel...

It ads up quick.
In my view - the vape is a luxury - not a must.
It's value affected by how much you need to sink into the he existing to get it working vs buying the vape new.

I am a fan of the aluminum cylinders as previously noted. Going from 125 to 177 or 187 is like putting a P200 motor in. So solid and rideable bs a 125 iron - which would be relatively anemic.
Aluminum less likely to seize.
Good value for $.
You don't have to port it or get fancy.

Tunnel is spotless.
🙂
Very nice.

So, what are we looking at here?


P210??? Belonging to Tony.

Looks clean to me.

Bore looks good to me. No visible marks.

What is this from? Piston Slap?

??

??

Crank. I can't tell if it is standard or high performance of some sort yet.

Piston color.

Yup. You had me at the tunnel. Having a good tunnel would be my starting point for a restoration project.

Great pics.
Everything you need to know there.

It's done ok - but it's been run lean.
The good news - damage is minimal.
Jetting likely cause.

- look at the head. Those tiny black dots are from detonation. You had some ping.
- look at the piston. Those marks you have are going to correspond to the position of the cylinder studs. It ran hot. Piston expanded. Scrubbed cylinder walls where studs align because cylinder won't expand there.

Looks very runnable still.
Tell us about the carb and it's jetting.

Thanks for the autopsy. Not sure what this means. Majority state new crank. Does that mean new crank and just hone cylinder and new rings and nothing else? That would be great. (Still need to look at everything else internal.) Carb 24/24G - Main 120/BE4/116 with a 50-100 idle. If it was running hot (lean) with this setup its a great data point to start. 24/24G was for a T5 I believe.

Mas pics of the cylinder por favor.

I'm not sure exactly what it is, and don't want to make any recs off unfounded info.

Crank: the keyway is toast. So is the flywheel. At issue: if there is play between flywheel and crank - your timing will jump around. That's less than optimal…

None of us are actually holding them - but looking at how they are widened - we all assume there is play and poor fit - or that the fly will soon just spin on its own.

So - looking at it from bare minimum - but solid:
Crank. New.
Fly. New.
Piston. Existing
Rings. New
Seals. New
Bearings. New
Cylinder. Hone
Piston. Super fine sand paper perhaps clean up at scrub points.
Cylinder head. Use. Clean that etc sealer off and don't use again.

Carb. Ok. Your using 120 ac - good.
I would drill the float bowl hole - see FMP videos.
Then up main jet.

School on jetting - you put in something that is so rich it won't rev out - then walk down slowly until it does.

Pay attention to size of drill u can fit in carb float bowl hole and post here.
If it's already 2.0mm or larger - ur ok. Just upjet.
The hole is drilled out so that your jet does the jetting - rather then the size of that hole.

However - you have some good info from piston top (lean) and head. Perhaps start at 122 or 124 main and then walk it down.
Watch your temps.
U want it to rev out but no leaner.
You want your piston. Black to edges but a pinky nail of "wash" at the transfers.

Here you go...

No obvious markings or laser engravings I could find, but it looks brand new!

Not that I ever doubted but you are 100% correct. If I hold the piston between the studs arrow down the marks line up exactly with the studs.

IMPRESSIVE

Thank you and that is what I was thinking. Its good to have a plan. Plans change and I understand that, but having direction is important I think.

Thoughts on this...

A new flywheel and stator (or even rewired stator) takes a big chunk (2/3) out of the cost for a Vape. Is it worth biting the bullet and going with the Vape?

Man makes a good point...
Other's should weigh in on my bare minimum list.
Speaking of others - some have been successful cleaning the cylinder walls with a bit of acid.
It's nasty caustic stuff - so I think there are some warnings that come along with it that include gloves and outdoor use.
Perhaps the experienced can weigh in here on both the above.

Can anyone identify the cylinder?
I assumed it was stock - but now see the cases have been ported at the transfers?

As for vape: vape = reliability.
There are two schools of thought on the AC/DC thing - as you have seen...
If getting existing is really 50% or more of the vape - it would be an easy call for me personally to go to the vape.

Ahhh.
Hang on.
My guess:
Cylinder is stock aftermarket replacement.
Someone had a performance cylinder on this and took it off.
Look at the transfer ports.
Cases have been ported for performance cyl.
Cyl. has stock transfers.
Any chance PO took off their cylinder before selling?

History of the scoot is thin. PO was just a guy who bought it because it was cool. Guy he bought it from (PO-1) was a scooter guy who apparently built some performance scoots.

This scooter has been sitting for more than ten years. PO did not ride it for many miles when he rode it.

My guess is that this scooter was assembled by the PO-1 from pieces he had lying around and slapped together to get a running scooter. Loose nuts, wiring, cases, etc. would speak to this. Very well may have had a tuned engine at one time that he detuned with a standard cylinder. Exhaust speaks to a tuned engine.

But the bones are a solid scooter. It's just questions of how I put it back together. Oh, and how much I am willing to invest!

+1 on the crankcase been ported what looks like a Malossi 210 kit

Pretty safe shape though, porting looks pretty shallow

Looks pretty lean to me with the colour of the piston (but without knowing how many kms it's been risen though), the piston marks definitely look like a heat seize…

Funny how these things become such rabbit holes. You start by fixing the thing and there are 3 other things connected to it that also need to be replaced. Plus the other thing that might be serviceable, but while you're in there, might as well replace that thing too.

Makes me feel better about working on my Stella which I thought would be a quick clean up bike. It just comes with the territory. The VW bus was the exact same deal.

But there are a finite number of things to fix and when you get them all, there's no feeling like it when you start it up and that pile of parts on your bench or kitchen table is taking you down the road. People who tell you to just get a Honda will never understand.

All the best on your project.

The pistol will clean up fine with some diluted muriatic acid. Do it outdoors, the fumes are no bueno.

Well fans, I am a bolt together and align guy. Now the options evolve.

Since the case has been ported for a performance piston I am confused. Until Charlieman identified it I didn't even look at the cases. So the questions:

1. Does that change anything?
2. Should I use a performance piston in the stock head? Does the performance piston impact reliability and rideability? I am an old f**k so having 20HP is not my goal. Stock 200cc performance is just fine.
3. What else should I be asking or worrying about.

Doing the bodywork and assembly does not scare me at all. Wiring doesn't scare me. Doing the wrong thing with the lump does!

In case it hasn't been said, I think that it is important to recognize this forum and the members that participate. I don't think I can overstate the importance of this to individuals like me, and the global scooter hobby in general. This forum is a community that gives folks like me confidence to tackle things I ordinarily wouldn't knowing there is a support group with infinite knowledge of everything Vespa. I thank you from me and I am sure for all others that have benefited from this amazing group.

I feel the same. Invaluable!

If you're not someone whose gotta have a racer, consider a stock cylinder with the exhaust port opened up (or not), 57mm race cut crank, stock piston, lightened flywheel with stock stator (SIP Touring flywheel), 24/24 carb and a SIP road 3.0 exhaust. Reliability is the same as stock with a mild performance gain.

You'll get more of that with a box exhaust.

Couldn't an AC system run LED's if you just tapped an ac/dc converter on the lighting line?

Sure, but then you're running split AC & DC sides of the electrical. Picking one or the other simplifies the wiring accordingly.