Modern Vespa

Hey all, first post here. Hopefully the title got some attention but I can't say I HATE it, yet, I just need some help! I'm definitely not new to vintage motorcycles but this 78' P200e is giving me a run for my money. I've always wanted one and now that I have one I'm having nothing but a hard time with it.

I bought it non-running and after a carb clean, fresh fuel, battery and new gear oil she came to life. I was over the moon. Then I went to shift it and it wasn't right/made an awful grinding sound so I stopped and did research.

First order of business was adjusting the shift cables and after getting into the headlight shell I found the cables were bound up and gummed up. Ordered new inners. They came and were too short then I realized the housings were too long so I trimmed those back, capped em and got the inners to work. After some trial and lots of error I got them adjusted properly.

Here's where I am now. The numbers are lined up pretty well on the twist shift but even when I'm in neutral at the selector I'm not in neutral. I can shift through the gears but also can't get into 4th. The shifting seems erratic. I did have it running and shifted and there was no neutral and it once jumped out of gear and stalled.

I removed the selector box and I don't see wear that I had researched. I found neutral with the box off then reinstalled and it does the same thing. Seems all I'm doing now is rolling it into a corner with the clutch pulled in and leaving it sit. Any help would be appreciated. I'm fearing the worst being pulling the engine, maybe a worn cruciform. Hoping to get some guru help here!

Just sounds like you didn't set the cables up right. Did you set the cables up with the shifter in neutral to line the dot up?

Get it in neutral, then redo the cables and if you have trouble getting it into either 1 or 4th then you just need to adjust the cables in the direction that will give you slightly more play to get the gear you are having trouble with.

Headline made me laugh. We've all been there!

GL

Also make sure the batwing is in neutral as well. Should sit in the second notch on there.

Yep.. thats what i meant. get the gearbox in neutral with the batwing in neutral.. if you need to do it by rotating the wheel with the shifter box lid off and manually move the batwing by hand into the small neutral nook. then get the shifter handle set up in neutral with the dots lined up and set your cables up at that point.

I've done that about 7 times lol. I guess I'll try again. Is there a trick to getting the selector box on correctly? This last time I put it in neutral with the box off, then on with the selector in neutral notch, then adjusted the cables with the dot lined up at neutral and it did the same thing. Another wonderful push out of the way waiting on feedback and the gear selector was in 1st yet it was rolling like neutral then slipped into gear while pushing. I've never begged a bike to function properly as much as this bastard.

I put them both in fourth when I put it back on. Seemed to go on much easier that way, then I just used my one hand to spin the wheel while I shifted back to neutral with my other hand moving the batwing, no cables attached yet. Did that after I was sure neutral was where it should be.

Fill the gearbox with fresh oil? Non detergent 30 weight. With the scooter turned off, can you roll the scoot/ muscle the back tire and roll the gearbox into 4th gear? If you cant do that, somethings binding/ jammed/ etc. etc internally.

What condition is the clutch in? Can you feather it or is it really sticky from sitting?

Exactly as FridayMatinee says!

Just get it on.. then rotate the wheel and manually move the batwing into neutral.

don't over tighten the cables when setting up cause once you get one side with the cable nut on.. and you pull the second cable too tight it will rotate the shifter handle and you'll be out of alignment.

I'll try all this again soon but I'm at the point where I need to leave it alone for a bit. Beyond frustrated. I've tried what y'all are saying but I'll try again. I don't think any cable adjustment in the world is gonna make it right but I could be wrong for sure.

Welcome to the world of vintage vespas!

Every other day you want to drop it off a cliff!

It may be the cables, but it could also be...
- Worn out cruciform
- Worn out shifter box
- Worn gears
- Gear spacing
- Worn clutch (plates, bushing, and/or thrust washer)

If any of those are the case, you'll never get it right, even if you get the cables, which I'm guessing are not set up right at this point, either. Unfortunately, it may be more than one of the above, and they aggravate each other.

Getting the shift cables set right is a huge PITA, but if you get the rear wheel off the ground (stick a piece of wood under the center stand and a jack stand under the rear of the frame is the easiest way I've found), you can start to isolate the fault and get it fixed.

First, though, how long was it sitting before you got your hands on it? I'm guessing the answer was some variant of "a while," so the clutch plates are probably sticking. Letting it run for ten minutes or so should have sorted that out.

Given that the bike was in a non-running state when you got it, it almost certainly is going to have a worn out cruciform, I'm afraid. It can produce the symptoms you're describing. The bad news is that you have to split the cases to replace it. You're also going to want to change the seals while you have it open.

How mechanically skilled are you? Have you ever done any work on a car or bike that used a torque wrench?

I have no idea what the options are for getting this sorted out are in Montana, but I'm guessing they're not great. If you're willing to dig in and do the work, though, we can definitely talk you through it.

And welcome to MV!

I had to try for 4th gear one more time, no dice. Even with the cable that would restrict that unhooked completely I can't shift the selector to 4th. Only way I've been able to shift through all gears ever is with the selector box completely off. If my explanation seems erratic it's because so are the symptoms. I know this last time the gear cables were good enough to find all gears properly but it's erratic. Handle and selector showing nuetral it ain't in neutral. Then it'll act like its in neutral when the selector is saying 1st, can't find 4th, it's all over the place.

I'm pretty good with vintage motorcycles and I've also built a Vespa moped engine from the crank up. Problem is I've got multiple bikes in the shop in progress and if this damn thing needs a case split it's gonna sit in the corner for who knows how long. Sorry for the negativity, I just went from super excited to super bummed with this scoot.

Leave it for the night and come back tomorrow with fresh eyes and some knowledge of how those work. If you say you can get into 4th with the selector box off, but cant with it on, i'd say selector box OR cables.

Youve done cables 8 times, maybe you have the wrong selector box installed? PX one vs. P? Care to take some close up pics?

The box installed...

Maybe a stupid question but what position do you think the selector box is in right now?

I've learned over the years that what comes with the bike always tells a story.

Here's a couple pieces that came in the spares box.

Good. Just double checking you weren't reversed.

Third

I appreciate it! I already made that mistake lol

http://vespamaintenance.com/engine/select/index.html

Call it a night, grab a beer and read this. Head out tomorrow and start comparing your parts bin selector with whats installed.

Somewhat related and in the general vicinity, youre missing the cable holders/ adjuster. Definitely need the two on the selector box installed as well as the two top hats that lock in the cable outers up at the headset.

Theres nothing binding/ jamming in the headset is there?


See the screwable adjuster where the cable meets the box?

See above box installed.

Post photos of the selector box, and the headset. Also show which cable goes where.
Pics are worth 1000 words.

Compare with these photos:

https://www.sip-scootershop.com/en/product/selector-box-old-px_87046000

Old P selector box is different from new PX selector box because the axle and gears are different. No mixing. Either or.

Maybe the previous owner bought the wrong one when their old one broke? Or maybe they swapped in lusso axle/gears on a rebuild and didn't swap the selector box?

I do have all that stuff. The pic isn't how it is now it's a previous pic from when I was wrenching on it. Nothing binding up.

I'll take a break tonight and get some pictures uploaded tomorrow! Appreciate y'all

Aside from taking a measurement that box from SIP is identical looking to the one I have installed.

There's really nothing shocking about finding that a non-running bike from 1978 needs work. Having to crack the case might even be a blessing in disguise as if it we're running without issues you might start riding it around, lose a seal and wreck the rotary pad, which is not uncommon for even a low mileage bike that has sat. Then you would be in deeper shit. Putting it aside until you have time…that's most people. If you have built vintage bikes then you have already been there. Accept the suckiness as it will go away and you will find your mo to get it done.

Not being able to select 4th is suspicious. When the selector box is being fitted are you sure it is hooking into the slide correctly? If it were not hooked in correctly, then you would not be able to select 4th and the gears will jump around with the motor running. Just a thought.

Welcome aboard!

My 1980 P125x was very hard to shift when I bought it. My Vespa is the only one I ever had so I am learning as I go too.👍 They are pretty straight forward mechanically. Mine was shifting erratically due to the PO having the plastic shifter cable pulley at the handle bar clocked 180 degrees out. To compensate for this he routed the shift cables opposite of where they would normally go on the plastic shifter cable pulley. The result was the shift cables didn't lay in a natural push pull configuration and were at weird angles. This caused binding of the cables. Once I sorted that all out and adjusted the shift cables life was good. Take a look at your set up and post pics of how the cables are attached at the plastic shifter cable pulley.

Hec

Here's a pic of mine for reference.

There are two models of selector boxes that will bolt on.
As you noted - it appears someone changed the prior one out.
As a starting point, shoot and post a picture from above on the bat wing - so we can see the "teeth" that engage the roller.
Two different shaped versions.
One will work.
Other won't.

Assuming you have the right one:
You noted you can shift it into gear with cables not connected? Is that correct?

If yes, shift it into fourth manually by lifting and spinning rear wheel and turning bat wing.
Then turn you shift lever to fourth.
Then put your first cable into the bat wing and snug. This will be the cable under tension.

Finally - also critical to have the sector box mounted and torqued.

Few more pics showing headset innards and bat wing as noted can help minimally rule out the simple stuff.

I found it hard to so

I'm not sure if I have the selector install right, I had asked previously if there was a trick to it. Those are the exact symptoms I'm experiencing too. Fingers crossed that is installed wrong.

Pictures coming soon...

Yea I find frustration with the vintage motorcycle, Vespa can put you over the edge. However, i learned to have fun with it. Don't give up. Lol.

My scenario is much worse than you. My GS is running solid without any issue and always start after 2-3 kicks. Last December, I plan to repaint the frame. Got the engine removed and carefully put on the rack straight up to make sure nothing weird happen to it. In February, I got the frame back and put everything in easily. Then I have problem with the engine, it is so hard to start, has backfires after 5-6 kicks or when I pull hard to speed up. Two months later, I still haven't been able to figure out why. I changed point, condenser, exhaust, sparkplug, rings... I'm taking off a few days but will work on it again on Monday.

Welcome to MV

If you repainted, did you clean up ground points?

It's an Easter miracle! He is Risen!!!

The selector box wasn't mounted correctly. Found a video, got it mounted right and now can find all gears including nuetral! I've never been so excited haha. I was able to ride it for the first time too but NOW I can agree that my cables aren't adjusted quite right as I got some clunking and grinding and basically had to hold the left grip in a way in first so it would go smoothly. Hopefully just some more cable adjustment and we'll be in business!!

Even found 2 wires loose in the left switch assembly and fixed those, now have headlight, horn and tailight/brake light. Stoked.

I have my speedo unscrewed under the bar shroud and amazingly it's working even though not threaded on. What's the trick for getting that threaded back on, just pull cable up? I also have two random wires in pic unplugged from somewhere and no blinkers.

Those two random wires are probably your neutral switch which screws into the selector box. It gives you a neutral light on the speedo.

And good job overcoming the obstacles you've run into. There's gonna be more. It's an old machine...

To install Speedo cable, grab the Speedo cable down by the front tire and push it up the fork. This will allow you to thread it onto the Speedo. To install the top cover, pull down the Speedo cable by the front tire. Glad to hear your making progress!

Hec

Still got some clanking and grinding after cable adjustment so more work to do. Right now it's like riding a wild bull lol.

At least progress was made and I'm hoping maybe just more cable adjustment and clutch adjustment will remedy the mis-shifts and grinds. 🤷

Just a tip, when you're adjusting shift cables in neutral, tape your handlebar blocking its rotation. My 2 cents

Just as an update, everything is dialed in including cable adjustment. It shifts through great but when running and riding there's still grinding, mis-shifts and coming out of gear happening so I'm afraid there's a worn cruciform or more issues internally that need to be addressed which I'm not sure when I'll get the courage to dig into.

Just wanted to thank y'all for at least getting me to the point of knowing where the scoot is at mechanically. I'll be back.

Just don't use real good type and peel paint off like I did😢