Tue Apr 19, 2022 7:06 pm

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Tue Apr 19, 2022 7:06 pm linkquote
I went through the same thing with my vbb. It ran great but shifting into third, it would miss, then grab suddenly which was a little scary. I went through the same thing you did and even got a new selector box. It improved things but it would grind when downshifting to third. Turned out the cruciform was really worn. You will get it sorted when the time is right.
Tue Apr 19, 2022 8:33 pm

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1979 Vespa P200E
Joined: 08 Feb 2010
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Location: San Jose, CA
 
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1979 Vespa P200E
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Tue Apr 19, 2022 8:33 pm linkquote
Most likely the shifter cross. Most people new to vintage Vespa's want it to be an easy fix etc. Could be other things like the selector or cables. I bought a P200 with 600 miles. Good old worn cross symptoms. The old man that owned it couldnt shift correctly to save his life and trashed the hell out of the cross. Cracked it open and that was the issue. Gears were fortunately still good. Installed new cross and problem solved. Make sure you only used genuine piaggio cross. Ive seen to many alternate brands go bad.
Tue Apr 19, 2022 8:53 pm

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P200e
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Tue Apr 19, 2022 8:53 pm linkquote
almogavar69 wrote:
Most likely the shifter cross. Most people new to vintage Vespa's want it to be an easy fix etc. Could be other things like the selector or cables. I bought a P200 with 600 miles. Good old worn cross symptoms. The old man that owned it couldnt shift correctly to save his life and trashed the hell out of the cross. Cracked it open and that was the issue. Gears were fortunately still good. Installed new cross and problem solved. Make sure you only used genuine piaggio cross. Ive seen to many alternate brands go bad.
Of course like many I was hoping to get the scoot, get it running and just enjoy but I understand that just isn't the reality with vintage bikes as I've brought many back from the dead.

Being a Vespa virgin I was afraid of the fix as I thought it meant pulling the entire motor and completely rebuilding unfamiliar territory which I'm now learning isn't quite the case. I'll definitely be digging in sooner than later.
Wed Apr 20, 2022 4:34 am

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1958 Allstate 177VMC, 2005 70cc Yamaha Vino
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Wed Apr 20, 2022 4:34 am linkquote
Grumpnut wrote:
Just don't use real good type and peel paint off like I did😢
I used 3M duct tape. The shiny metal looking one. Doesn't give at all so when you tighten the cables it stays put. Also helps to put the tape across the gap rather than parallel with the gap. If that makes sense? Cross the river don't follow the river so to speak.
Wed Apr 20, 2022 4:35 am

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Wed Apr 20, 2022 4:35 am linkquote
HMC_MT wrote:
Of course like many I was hoping to get the scoot, get it running and just enjoy but I understand that just isn't the reality with vintage bikes as I've brought many back from the dead.

Being a Vespa virgin I was afraid of the fix as I thought it meant pulling the entire motor and completely rebuilding unfamiliar territory which I'm now learning isn't quite the case. I'll definitely be digging in sooner than later.
Don't be scared. They're simple machines.
Sat Apr 30, 2022 2:21 pm

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Sat Apr 30, 2022 2:21 pm linkquote
Okay, I want my Vespa on the road sooner than later so I'm gonna dive in. Two things:

1) I was told to make sure it's not the selector box before I go after the cruciform. What am I looking for to determine that?

2) I wanna make sure I get everything I need in one order. Was also told I can do the cross with the engine in. I know it would be best to do a whole engine refresh, but I quite honestly would like to enjoy it while the weather is good and maybe do a complete rebuild seals n all closer to winter. The bike starts 1 or 2 kicks and runs excellent with great compression, doesn't show any signs of terrible crank seals. Yet lol
Sat Apr 30, 2022 5:22 pm

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79 P200E (Ruby), 62 Allstate (B-62), 2008 Stella (Olive)
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Sat Apr 30, 2022 5:22 pm linkquote
Hey HMC - A couple of questions and a few suggestions...

Have you ridden/driven old vehicles like an old VW or truck that was hard to shift? How bad is the clunking, and could that be normal? Is there a group around that messes with vintage Vespas? Maybe you could check out what a nice shifting machine feels like to compare?

I know it sounds crazy, those questions, but bear with me for a sec...

All old scooters clunk into gear, and it takes a bit of smoothness to make it seem like they shift great, when in actuality it's timing of the engine revs and just enough pressure at just the right time, and clunk, into gear it goes.

I sold a scooter many moons ago and the new owner calls me up - he snapped three cables within two weeks! I put over 13,000 miles on it and NEVER broke a cable. It's all in the feel of shifting.

I'm not saying that the shifting cross isn't probably round from it's life of shifting, but you might be able to finess and milk it through the summer riding season before you pull the engine and put it on the bench.

And just like all our personality quirks, I haven't gotten on two scooters that are the same - they all seem to have their own personality in shifting/braking/revving/etc. Of course, they are very similar, just slightly different.

My newly rebuilt 62 Allstate three speed clunks into gear with authority, and the 79 P200 with 10k miles and never opened (except for the clutch) still shifts nice, but I know could be better with a new cross and maybe a shim for the gears.

I let my two nephews experience the P200 and I could hear the ham fisted shenanagons happening two blocks away and was just cringing. But they figured it out and pulled up back to the house with grins from ear to ear. I never said a thing, but when BSing about their ride, they brought up how finicky it was to shift. I just smiled and said it does take a knack and practice to be smooth on the older machines. I'll open the cases this winter, but for now, I can work around whatever is going on in there....

I hope this helps...
Sat Apr 30, 2022 5:31 pm

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Sat Apr 30, 2022 5:31 pm linkquote
I have lots of experience with vintages bikes, just not Vespas. I do remember riding a buddies years ago and I remember the finesse it took, with special attention to smooth clutch work, throttle control etc. I also have a Sears All State Compact that is 3 speed twist shift. Even with original cables it shifts "well". Definitely has the quirkyness too.

The P200e grinding when shifting is cringe worthy. And the slipping in and out of gear while riding is nerve racking and quite honestly probably dangerous. Accidental wheelies are less than a good time.
Sat Apr 30, 2022 5:47 pm

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Sat Apr 30, 2022 5:47 pm linkquote
HMC_MT wrote:
The P200e grinding when shifting is cringe worthy. And the slipping in and out of gear while riding is nerve racking and quite honestly probably dangerous. Accidental wheelies are less than a good time.
Ohhhh, no good. May want to get some 30 weight non detergent and change the gear oil, for grins if nothing else...
Sat Apr 30, 2022 5:58 pm

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Sat Apr 30, 2022 5:58 pm linkquote
Already did that including a flush. Also new shift cables and a third hand tool for perfect adjustment.
Sat Apr 30, 2022 6:12 pm

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Sat Apr 30, 2022 6:12 pm linkquote
Should've known
Sat Apr 30, 2022 6:40 pm

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Sat Apr 30, 2022 6:40 pm linkquote
I kind of does sound like the cross. Cables can be pretty loose and you still can kind of feel around and finesse it into gear…but the grinding and dropping out of gear…or the revving and suddenly engaging the gear that makes the trout hatch pucker…sounds like the cross. I would still go through the other stuff. It's good to refresh it anyway.
Sat Apr 30, 2022 6:43 pm

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Sat Apr 30, 2022 6:43 pm linkquote
Trout hatch. Incredible.
Mon May 02, 2022 4:47 pm

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Mon May 02, 2022 4:47 pm linkquote
I'm still mystified as to why you were removing the gear selector to start with. Also, its an odd thing to have a spare of that specific part, unless there are a heap of other spares included.
Is everything ok with cables & routing at the headset end of the cables, as (again) it is very odd that you would have had to CUT something off new replacement cables that are made for a Vespa, im guessing there is something not routed correctly to make you have to do that.
Have you looked at & adjusted the CLUTCH, as before you blame cruciform you really need to ensure clutch & gears are all good, as there should be no need to pull in lever for anything besides changing gears & saving things when it seizes.
Mon May 02, 2022 5:00 pm

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Mon May 02, 2022 5:00 pm linkquote
Good thing I removed the selector box you were so mystified by because it wasn't located correctly on the shaft. The company that sent me cables sent the wrong length and I had already adjusted the cables and clutch meticulously per the service manual.

All that is neither here nor there now as I've dug into the engine to get at the cruciform.
Tue May 03, 2022 5:50 am

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Tue May 03, 2022 5:50 am linkquote
HMC_MT wrote:
Good thing I removed the selector box you were so mystified by because it wasn't located correctly on the shaft. The company that sent me cables sent the wrong length and I had already adjusted the cables and clutch meticulously per the service manual.

All that is neither here nor there now as I've dug into the engine to get at the cruciform.
Given your experience with bikes and the steps you have gone through so far, this is a logical step. I don't think it will take you all that much time and you can easily sort out anything else you might find.
Sun May 08, 2022 7:52 am

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Sun May 08, 2022 7:52 am linkquote
The cruciform was guilty as charged. Beyond worn. Did the swap with a OEM piaggio cross and inspected all gears and did some other things while I was in there. Pretty simple considering the typical case split. Finally got that first smile ride in and I'm hooked. Head barely had any carbonization, bore looked phenomenal, swapped studs. Good enough to enjoy for the summer and now have no fear of a rebuild later in the off season. On to going through it now to make it road worthy. Currently having a hard time staying off it!
Sun May 08, 2022 8:05 am

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Sun May 08, 2022 8:05 am linkquote
HMC_MT wrote:
The cruciform was guilty as charged. Beyond worn. Did the swap with a OEM piaggio cross and inspected all gears and did some other things while I was in there. Pretty simple considering the typical case split. Finally got that first smile ride in and I'm hooked. Head barely had any carbonization, bore looked phenomenal, swapped studs. Good enough to enjoy for the summer and now have no fear of a rebuild later in the off season. On to going through it now to make it road worthy. Currently having a hard time staying off it!
That's awesome. Glad you got it sorted out. Once you go through all the steps you did while thinking say it ain't so, it's not so bad. Happy trails.
Mon May 09, 2022 5:40 pm

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Old Vespas and Lambrettas
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Mon May 09, 2022 5:40 pm linkquote
And ya finally put the front brake lever on!!! 🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣
Mon May 09, 2022 6:04 pm

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Mon May 09, 2022 6:04 pm linkquote
Ahhh shit Grandpa of course you're here! Lol
Mon May 09, 2022 6:19 pm

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Mon May 09, 2022 6:19 pm linkquote
HMC_MT wrote:
Ahhh shit Grandpa of course you're here! Lol
I'm everywhere……🤣

Just really stoked ya get yer bike sorted man!
Mon May 09, 2022 6:48 pm

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Mon May 09, 2022 6:48 pm linkquote
Congrats. Now you can stop hating it for at least a brief period. Till the next problem!
Wed May 11, 2022 10:58 am

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Wed May 11, 2022 10:58 am linkquote
I think Swiss1939 summoned the Vespa demons with that last post. Been riding the scoot more and now it momentarily slips out of gear then goes back to normal. It's tolerable but highly frustrating considering I just split the case to swap the cruciform. My gears had some wear but nothing alarming (I think) and no broken teeth.

Yes I adjusted the clutch cable, again, and yes I tried both tightening and loosening the shift cables for the 69th time. It still does it, and not just 1 gear under hard revs. Does seem it likes to do it in 2nd most.

I 100 percent get the importance and process of the shift cable adjustment but it also seems that if my lights didn't work someone would say adjust the shift cables lol.

I'd be more apt to try a new (proper) selector box before I'd crack the case again. Commence feedback...
Wed May 11, 2022 11:09 am

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Wed May 11, 2022 11:09 am linkquote
Where did you inspect the gears for wear? On the inside where the shift cross touches each? Or outside? You want to focus on the inside. Each mating surface should have nice hard 90* edges just like the new shift cross you installed. It usually takes a while to wear down the inside of the gears, but it can happen!

After that, what's this talk of the selector box? Did you buy a replacement or is it OG?
Wed May 11, 2022 11:17 am

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Wed May 11, 2022 11:17 am linkquote
It's suspect because the PO owner was definitely messing with it probably trying to remedy what was actually a super worn cruciform. I know that because the scoot came with some spares and one was half a selector box and the cover was off. Figured it'd be good to have a new one anyways and know the right one is installed. As a first time Vespa owner I don't know how to determine if the one on the bike is proper. Also as a newbie I just looked at the gears in general, not really knowing how everything functions. There was definitely a bit of wear but for the most part it seemed the cross did it's job as it was toast.
Wed May 11, 2022 11:37 am

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Wed May 11, 2022 11:37 am linkquote
If you have a spare selector box, swap it and see if you get the same results.

In theory the selector box batwing gear is notched at certain points, those points throw the lever inside a certain distance. If that distance doesn't match up internally with the space between gears, it could cause slipping.

So, unless you get really scientific and measure distances, make sure the selector box gasket is installed, swap and try your luck.
Wed May 11, 2022 12:06 pm

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Wed May 11, 2022 12:06 pm linkquote
I don't have a spare but I'd be more than willing to order a new one if it saves me a case split and super expensive gears! Lol
Wed May 11, 2022 12:53 pm

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Wed May 11, 2022 12:53 pm linkquote
HMC_MT wrote:
I don't have a spare but I'd be more than willing to order a new one if it saves me a case split and super expensive gears! Lol
Pull your selector bog with the cables connected. How does it feel going through the gears?

Put it third and see how the top of the pivot arm actuator lines up with the face of the box. Older P's (pre '83 I think) should protrude 1.5mm. Newer version will be flush, more or less.
Wed May 11, 2022 1:31 pm

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Wed May 11, 2022 1:31 pm linkquote
Ray8 wrote:
Pull your selector bog with the cables connected. How does it feel going through the gears?

Put it third and see how the top of the pivot arm actuator lines up with the face of the box. Older P's (pre '83 I think) should protrude 1.5mm. Newer version will be flush, more or less.
Yep. Check out this article for clarification if you need to see what he's referencing.

https://scooterlab.uk/vespa-px-gear-selector-box-repair-part-2-video/
Wed May 11, 2022 1:38 pm

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Wed May 11, 2022 1:38 pm linkquote
Not sure what you have or haven't checked here are a few videos that may help.

Wed May 11, 2022 2:26 pm

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Wed May 11, 2022 2:26 pm linkquote
Ray8 wrote:
Pull your selector bog with the cables connected. How does it feel going through the gears?

Put it third and see how the top of the pivot arm actuator lines up with the face of the box. Older P's (pre '83 I think) should protrude 1.5mm. Newer version will be flush, more or less.
This is in 3rd, the arm is pretty much flush. Shifts through while off just fine except if I try too hard to go into/past first it will go past a touch. The adjusters are where they are after trying to go tighter after initial adjustment to note the change. There is a bit of play in the arm. Here's some pics...







Wed May 11, 2022 2:36 pm

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Wed May 11, 2022 2:36 pm linkquote
This may not apply, but my three speed 62 Allstate would jump gears - between 2nd and 3rd. When I rebuild it I found the gear cluster needed a fatter shim because they were too sloppy

It's rock solid now...


The checking process

Wed May 11, 2022 3:25 pm

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Wed May 11, 2022 3:25 pm linkquote
qascooter wrote:
This may not apply, but my three speed 62 Allstate would jump gears - between 2nd and 3rd. When I rebuild it I found the gear cluster needed a fatter shim because they were too sloppy

It's rock solid now...
The gears thickness wears out from all that spinning before anything else on the gears. To avoid splitting the cases to check tolerance add an extra selector box gasket or two or three and see if it improves at all. If no extra gaskets, make some with cardboard for the test.

Good luck!
Wed May 11, 2022 4:15 pm

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Wed May 11, 2022 4:15 pm linkquote
I kinda hate mine too at the moment.
Wed May 11, 2022 4:36 pm

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Wed May 11, 2022 4:36 pm linkquote
qascooter wrote:
This may not apply, but my three speed 62 Allstate would jump gears - between 2nd and 3rd. When I rebuild it I found the gear cluster needed a fatter shim because they were too sloppy

It's rock solid now...
Yeah, you could go up 0.25 millimeters from that measurement. I tried for 0.10 millimeters on mine.
Wed May 11, 2022 10:17 pm

Jet Eye Master
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Wed May 11, 2022 10:17 pm linkquote
Check the selector arm pivot for wear. Should be covered in grease. Check the arm hasn't come loose. When gears jump the selector can get damaged.

When adjusting the selector gaskets, spin the rear wheel. Correctly adjusted, it spins silently in neutral. If it clicks it's pushing on a gear.
Thu May 12, 2022 9:40 am

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Thu May 12, 2022 9:40 am linkquote
HMC_MT wrote:
This is in 3rd, the arm is pretty much flush. Shifts through while off just fine except if I try too hard to go into/past first it will go past a touch. The adjusters are where they are after trying to go tighter after initial adjustment to note the change. There is a bit of play in the arm. Here's some pics...
Are you sure it's flush? If it is, that's a later(lusso) box. Hard to tell from the pic but it looks like it protrudes from here. If you're sure it's flush, shimming it won't help.

Where is there play?
Thu May 12, 2022 9:54 am

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Thu May 12, 2022 9:54 am linkquote
Ray8 wrote:
Are you sure it's flush? If it is, that's a later(lusso) box. Hard to tell from the pic but it looks like it protrudes from here. If you're sure it's flush, shimming it won't help.

Where is there play?
It is hard to see, if you're talking where it pivots, it does protrude a bit. At the end of the arm it's flush. I did cut 1 extra gasket out of manilla folder and it still did it. Wrong box? I'm just gonna try a new box. Can someone recommend the correct one. No response yet from two suppliers I asked.
Thu May 12, 2022 11:05 am

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Thu May 12, 2022 11:05 am linkquote
What you want is an "old PX" selector box.

I'm very happy with two of these. Read the description:
https://www.sip-scootershop.com/en/product/selector-box-kr-automation-px-old-cnc-reinforced_87009200?q=selector%20box

First confirm you have a later box by checking in this manner.


Box for lusso gearing. "Old px"will protrude 1.5-2mm.

Thu May 12, 2022 2:12 pm

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Posts: 3227
Location: London UK
Thu May 12, 2022 2:12 pm linkquote
HMC_MT wrote:
It is hard to see, if you're talking where it pivots, it does protrude a bit. At the end of the arm it's flush. I did cut 1 extra gasket out of manilla folder and it still did it. Wrong box? I'm just gonna try a new box. Can someone recommend the correct one. No response yet from two suppliers I asked.
If you do have a lusso selector on an old style gearbox, spinning the rear wheel off the ground in neutral will click really bad. Maybe even try to jump in gear.
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