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@chandlerman avatar
UTC

Lucky
76 Sprint V, 63 GL, 62 VBB, 05 Stella, 66 Smallstate, 79 P200E, 66 Lammy S3
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Lucky
@chandlerman avatar
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UTC quote
FridayMatinee wrote:
What an absolute mess, but are you going to blow the cases up with dynamite? If so we'll need a video of that!

Glad you didn't go down too.
Nah, I'm actually going to try to weld them up, just for the practice. It's a nasty gouge because it's the corner where the halves come together and the deck, but I think it's do-able. And even if it's not, I'll have the new cases that I'm building on anyway.

I figure I'll be back on the road two weeks from now, as amazing as that seems right now.
@108 avatar
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UTC quote
Don't know if I mentioned it before…

Seeing you're keeping the existing gearbox, I'd double check the gearbox for wear between gears and the position of the selector in each of the gears…

Smallframes gear shifts seem to be sensitive to positions compared to LF. Not sure it's it's because of the shift mechanism or the design of the selector/cruciform…
UTC

Veni, Vidi, Posti
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Veni, Vidi, Posti
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UTC quote
[quote=Glad you didn't go down too.[/quote]

This, this, a hundred times this. Busted knees and hands cost more to fix, are painful and keeps you from doing fun things.
It totally sucks, but I'm glad you are ok. And your willingness just move forward and build again astounds me. I salute you, sir!
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UTC quote
Wow. What a shame… glad you ok!!! *doffs cap for a lost set of cases*
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@chandlerman avatar
UTC

Lucky
76 Sprint V, 63 GL, 62 VBB, 05 Stella, 66 Smallstate, 79 P200E, 66 Lammy S3
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45 Days Since Last Explosion
 
Lucky
@chandlerman avatar
76 Sprint V, 63 GL, 62 VBB, 05 Stella, 66 Smallstate, 79 P200E, 66 Lammy S3
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UTC quote
I tore open the cases today and it was ugly. Truly like a grenade went off inside it. The crankcase is literally gone.

Multiple case studs are bent, and the clutch plates have already seen better days, too.

Another exhibit for the Museum of Scooter Carnage.
I think it's an oil sucker now
I think it's an oil sucker now
Clutch plates aren't supposed to look like that, are they?
Clutch plates aren't supposed to look like that, are they?
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UTC

Ossessionato
79 P200E (Ruby), 62 Allstate (B-62)
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Ossessionato
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UTC quote
Wow Wha? emoticon
UTC

Ossessionato
Vespas 1964 GS160, 1965 SS180, 1977 V9A1T, 1983 PX150E
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Ossessionato
Vespas 1964 GS160, 1965 SS180, 1977 V9A1T, 1983 PX150E
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UTC quote
Just JB Weld it up, and it'll be fine.
UTC

parallelogramerist
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parallelogramerist
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UTC quote
All that damage...dear lord. I'm glad you didn't get hurt!
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Nedminder
62 VBB1T Round Tail W/ leaner sidecar
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Nedminder
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UTC quote
Gracious.
That is some spectacular carnage!
@108 avatar
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UTC quote
Damn…

That's a whole lot of damage!

Looking back through the snapped conrod photos, I don't think you can blame mazzucchelli entirely.

It's just the quatrinni has a bit too much power.

And might have heat seized too… see browning marks on the piston adjacent to the cylinder studs.

Looking at the cross section of the conrod, seems a little too thin for a +25HP kit.

Too thin in both places it snapped.

Sucks big time regardless. Definitely a good offering to the racing gods…
OP
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UTC

Lucky
76 Sprint V, 63 GL, 62 VBB, 05 Stella, 66 Smallstate, 79 P200E, 66 Lammy S3
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Lucky
@chandlerman avatar
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UTC quote
108 wrote:
Damn…

That's a whole lot of damage!

Looking back through the snapped conrod photos, I don't think you can blame mazzucchelli entirely.
True. I had never really given much thought to the idea that a conrod wouldn't be capable of handling whatever power one of these motors threw at it. My mistake, but I still will probably avoid Mazz cranks in future builds, because they're ALL at excessive levels of power these days.
108 wrote:
It's just the quatrinni has a bit too much power.
You say that like it's a bad thing! Razz emoticon
108 wrote:
And might have heat seized too… see browning marks on the piston adjacent to the cylinder studs.
Those are from when I seized it early in the process
108 wrote:
Looking at the cross section of the conrod, seems a little too thin for a +25HP kit.

Too thin in both places it snapped.
Now you tell me!

I guess we just needed to get a better view of the cross-section, which we definitely now have.

I pulled the trigger on the parts orders this morning. Still feeling a little tightness in the chest from that. I don't need to save for retirement *every* month, right?

Worst part was that I had to order from both SIP and Scooter Center to get all the parts, so double the shipping fun. And I'm waiting for SIP to pull their usual "Send moar monies!" trick on me, which will then delay shipping by a day or two.

For some final fun, here's picture of one of the case studs that didn't even have the good manners to stay screwed in on the case side. That'll straighten right out, though, I'm sure.
Forum member supplied image with no explanatory text
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UTC quote
That case stud!!?!?!?!! G*d D@#n!

That is an art project!

...or a shart project? Maybe a little of both?

Holy smokes
@108 avatar
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UTC quote
Feeling you with the tight chest on the 2 separate orders…

On the bright side, will feel like Christmas again.
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UTC

Nedminder
62 VBB1T Round Tail W/ leaner sidecar
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Nedminder
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UTC quote
My 2004.4 mile away autopsy (so take it with appropriate grains of 2 stroke):
It looks to me like the piston stopped - while everything else was trying to keep going.
- Clutch looks like it was turning against immovable object (like a crank burying itself in a cast stud for example)
- With piston stopped and no place for it to rotate, the crank got out of round.

If the rod had just given out - I'm not sure crank would have been forced out of place like that. But with your weight on the back wheel - and the motor in gear - all that force would be driven right to the center of your motor - with the piston refusing to allow anything to turn.

Side note - I don't think I've ever seen a case see so much force!
That piston might have stopped dead on you.
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Nedminder
62 VBB1T Round Tail W/ leaner sidecar
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Nedminder
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UTC quote
Candidate for new avatar
Forum member supplied image with no explanatory text
UTC

Molto Verboso
'07 GTS250, '07 LX150, '81 P200E, '78 P200E, '64 V90 and 3 Ciaos
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Molto Verboso
'07 GTS250, '07 LX150, '81 P200E, '78 P200E, '64 V90 and 3 Ciaos
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UTC quote
CM,

High score, you win. Hard to top that, folks.
Nuff said.
Nuff said.
OP
@chandlerman avatar
UTC

Lucky
76 Sprint V, 63 GL, 62 VBB, 05 Stella, 66 Smallstate, 79 P200E, 66 Lammy S3
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Lucky
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UTC quote
I don't think your theory works, CM. If that were the case, there would be cracking around the bearings or between the primary and gear stack, but they're still whole. I tested that theory the first time I killed my LML cases, if you recall. Facepalm emoticon

Instead, I think that the crank failed as it was extending, was pushed back by the piston, then driven by the gearbox like you suggested, embedding the conrod into the cylinder, at which point it sheared off the big end of the crank and took one last trip around and destroyed the crankcase.

Also, because I can't help myself, I did a little autopsy video.

OP
@chandlerman avatar
UTC

Lucky
76 Sprint V, 63 GL, 62 VBB, 05 Stella, 66 Smallstate, 79 P200E, 66 Lammy S3
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45 Days Since Last Explosion
 
Lucky
@chandlerman avatar
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45 Days Since Last Explosion
UTC quote
az_slynch wrote:
CM,

High score, you win. Hard to top that, folks.
ROFL emoticon
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Ossessionato
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UTC quote
I'm glad it happened at low speed and that you didn't get hurt. That would have scared the shit outta me.
@sdjohn avatar
UTC

Johnny Two Tone
'15 GTS300, '86 PX125EFL, '66 VBB, '01 ET4
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Johnny Two Tone
@sdjohn avatar
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UTC quote
that is hall of fame territory.

that being said, I bet charlieman could fix it ROFL emoticon
UTC

Veni, Vidi, Posti
Joined: UTC
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Veni, Vidi, Posti
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UTC quote
Boy... is there anything that can be salvaged out of that engine? I'm starting to feel a little guilty about telling you about this scoot. Do you think there was anything wrong with the engine case before the build?
⚠️ Last edited by Tierney on UTC; edited 1 time
OP
@chandlerman avatar
UTC

Lucky
76 Sprint V, 63 GL, 62 VBB, 05 Stella, 66 Smallstate, 79 P200E, 66 Lammy S3
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45 Days Since Last Explosion
 
Lucky
@chandlerman avatar
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45 Days Since Last Explosion
UTC quote
I stripped out everything I plan to keep except they cylinder studs. It'll be basically an all-new motor.

And Tierney, don't feel bad for a second about turning me on to this project. I've enjoyed the hell out of it, explosions and all!
Forum member supplied image with no explanatory text
UTC

Veni, Vidi, Posti
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Veni, Vidi, Posti
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UTC quote
Yeah, well I feel like I introduced you to a new drug, because the old ones were not exciting enough. And you then went and took it to a whole higher level.. ...Still, I must admit I am excited to see what comes next.
@108 avatar
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@108 avatar
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UTC quote
That's a ton of force.

For the conrod to break, then pierce through the cases, THEN the cylinder too…

Sheesh…

Nice T-shirt btw…
UTC

Molto Verboso
'07 GTS250, '07 LX150, '81 P200E, '78 P200E, '64 V90 and 3 Ciaos
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Molto Verboso
'07 GTS250, '07 LX150, '81 P200E, '78 P200E, '64 V90 and 3 Ciaos
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UTC quote
sdjohn wrote:
that is hall of fame territory.

that being said, I bet charlieman could fix it ROFL emoticon
We'd need to loan him a decent set of cases to take measurements off of first.

At any rate, the effort would be a lot like reassembling used dynamite.
@charlieman22 avatar
UTC

Nedminder
62 VBB1T Round Tail W/ leaner sidecar
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Nedminder
@charlieman22 avatar
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UTC quote
Well - I do love an autopsy video. 🙂
What ever it was - it's a spectacular one / out of the ordinary / for sure.
Your a good man for posting up the ugly carnage for us all to ponder.
Chuckled in good spirits when I saw u had already reloaded and got the parts heading your way.

Like!

Ax lynch - hahaha, used dynamite. Tru
OP
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UTC

Lucky
76 Sprint V, 63 GL, 62 VBB, 05 Stella, 66 Smallstate, 79 P200E, 66 Lammy S3
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Lucky
@chandlerman avatar
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45 Days Since Last Explosion
UTC quote
az_slynch wrote:
We'd need to loan him a decent set of cases to take measurements off of first.

At any rate, the effort would be a lot like reassembling used dynamite.
SoCalGuy has a spare set of smallie cases. He threatens them that he's going to send them my way if they misbehave.
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UTC

Jet Eye Master
PX221 MHR, O tuned PX200, PX125 and some motorbikes
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Jet Eye Master
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UTC quote
chandlerman wrote:
I don't think your theory works, CM. If that were the case, there would be cracking around the bearings or between the primary and gear stack, but they're still whole. I tested that theory the first time I killed my LML cases, if you recall. Facepalm emoticon

Instead, I think that the crank failed as it was extending, was pushed back by the piston, then driven by the gearbox like you suggested, embedding the conrod into the cylinder, at which point it sheared off the big end of the crank and took one last trip around and destroyed the crankcase.

Also, because I can't help myself, I did a little autopsy video.

That is incredible damage . Video seems worse than the photos.
What kind of riding was going on on the 10 minutes up to detonation?
Rpm puts heavy strain on the small end. Mazz crank should be good for 11,000rpm. Maybe a bit more.
OP
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UTC

Lucky
76 Sprint V, 63 GL, 62 VBB, 05 Stella, 66 Smallstate, 79 P200E, 66 Lammy S3
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45 Days Since Last Explosion
 
Lucky
@chandlerman avatar
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45 Days Since Last Explosion
UTC quote
Jack221 wrote:
That is incredible damage . Video seems worse than the photos.
What kind of riding was going on on the 10 minutes up to detonation?
Rpm puts heavy strain on the small end. Mazz crank should be good for 11,000rpm. Maybe a bit more.
It was mostly pretty tame, as best I can recall. I was going the very long way around to the liquor store. Most of the time I wasn't even in the power band.

I've thing I discovered is that with the 36mm carb, the max RPM's went from 11k to 13k. I don't think I got there anywhere near the end though. Maybe one run up to the mid 70's in 3rd, so 12k?

I had been just cruising along for a few minutes prior to the explosion, though.
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79 P200E (Ruby), 62 Allstate (B-62)
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@qascooter avatar
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UTC quote
So I started telling my wife about the Broken Piston Award, and she goes

"I know who that's going to!" Razz emoticon
@charlieman22 avatar
UTC

Nedminder
62 VBB1T Round Tail W/ leaner sidecar
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Nedminder
@charlieman22 avatar
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UTC quote
Quote:
New award - The Horrendous Engine Kablooie
Ha!
Great logo.
Congrats to CM for first annual.
OP
@chandlerman avatar
UTC

Lucky
76 Sprint V, 63 GL, 62 VBB, 05 Stella, 66 Smallstate, 79 P200E, 66 Lammy S3
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45 Days Since Last Explosion
 
Lucky
@chandlerman avatar
76 Sprint V, 63 GL, 62 VBB, 05 Stella, 66 Smallstate, 79 P200E, 66 Lammy S3
Joined: UTC
Posts: 9833
Location: Nashville

45 Days Since Last Explosion
UTC quote
charlieman22 wrote:
Ha!
Great logo.
Congrats to CM for first annual.
Yay, me?
UTC

Ossessionato
Vespas 1964 GS160, 1965 SS180, 1977 V9A1T, 1983 PX150E
Joined: UTC
Posts: 2537
Location: Siam
 
Ossessionato
Vespas 1964 GS160, 1965 SS180, 1977 V9A1T, 1983 PX150E
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UTC quote
chandlerman wrote:
Yay, me?
Uh…
UTC

Molto Verboso
'07 GTS250, '07 LX150, '81 P200E, '78 P200E, '64 V90 and 3 Ciaos
Joined: UTC
Posts: 1132
Location: Tucson, AZ
 
Molto Verboso
'07 GTS250, '07 LX150, '81 P200E, '78 P200E, '64 V90 and 3 Ciaos
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UTC quote
I keep thinking of this.
Forum member supplied image with no explanatory text
@socalguy avatar
UTC

bodgemaster
63 GL, 76 Super (x2), 74 Primavera (x2), 79 P200, 06 Fly 150
Joined: UTC
Posts: 7154
Location: So Cal
 
bodgemaster
@socalguy avatar
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UTC quote
Quote:
I was going the very long way around to the liquor store.
See what happens when you take the long way to the liquor store?
UTC

parallelogramerist
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parallelogramerist
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UTC quote
charlieman22 wrote:
My 2004.4 mile away autopsy (so take it with appropriate grains of 2 stroke):
It looks to me like the piston stopped - while everything else was trying to keep going.
it looks to me like the whole engine stopped and the piston kept going!
UTC

Jet Eye Master
PX221 MHR, O tuned PX200, PX125 and some motorbikes
Joined: UTC
Posts: 4568
Location: London UK
 
Jet Eye Master
PX221 MHR, O tuned PX200, PX125 and some motorbikes
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Posts: 4568
Location: London UK
UTC quote
chandlerman wrote:
It was mostly pretty tame, as best I can recall. I was going the very long way around to the liquor store. Most of the time I wasn't even in the power band.

I've thing I discovered is that with the 36mm carb, the max RPM's went from 11k to 13k. I don't think I got there anywhere near the end though. Maybe one run up to the mid 70's in 3rd, so 12k?

I had been just cruising along for a few minutes prior to the explosion, though.
If on the way back from the liquor store, there would have been useful supplies.

It all gets very approximate but 10,500rpm is considered the safe limit for a 51mm stroke using any cast components. The force curve is exponential.
I would have little concern pushing this to near 12,000rpm but not more.
Must have been awesome to ride.
@greasy125 avatar
UTC

Sergeant at Arms
Weird 80's Vespas & Cool Vintage Lambrettas
Joined: UTC
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Location: The state of insanity, SoCal
 
Sergeant at Arms
@greasy125 avatar
Weird 80's Vespas & Cool Vintage Lambrettas
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Location: The state of insanity, SoCal
UTC quote
there be but one thing to say: gawd-damn son!

years ago I blew up an all aluminum 500+ cube big block chevy motor on the dyno. she let go and one of the rods cut the block clean in half along with all the other peripheral damage. the carnage was astounding-- parts embedded into other parts, the floor, the walls, the ceiling and fluids everywhere.

after my boss and I regained our breath he looked at me and quipped deadpan: well, if you're gonna blow it up, blow it up big.

to this day, I didn't think I'd ever see anything as gnarly as that only for this to at least equal and probably surpass it.

bah gawd man, you done borked it.
OP
@chandlerman avatar
UTC

Lucky
76 Sprint V, 63 GL, 62 VBB, 05 Stella, 66 Smallstate, 79 P200E, 66 Lammy S3
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45 Days Since Last Explosion
 
Lucky
@chandlerman avatar
76 Sprint V, 63 GL, 62 VBB, 05 Stella, 66 Smallstate, 79 P200E, 66 Lammy S3
Joined: UTC
Posts: 9833
Location: Nashville

45 Days Since Last Explosion
UTC quote
G, I don't know that I surpassed what you did to that big block, but I'll claim credit for the fact that I kersploded mine while going down the road.

Jack, this was a 54mm crank. The new build will be on a 51, though, which I found out after the fact is the recommended stroke per Quattrini for the kit+pipe.

I'm pleasantly surprised to see that SIP shipped out my box without demanding more cash for shipping, so that was a pleasant surprise. Still waiting on a shipping confirmation and tracking # from Scooter Center, though, which is a bit unusual for them.
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