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whodatschrome wrote:
it looks to me like the whole engine stopped and the piston kept going!
Or the piston stopped and and engine kept going! Crying or Very sad emoticon
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Here's a maybe dumb suggestion: Find a way to mount all the torn up bits. H#ll, frame it up and hang it on the wall. Art like this is not easily achieved and will possibly represent the tenacity to strive for the pinnacle of perfection. Or something like that......
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Jet Eye Master
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Jet Eye Master
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chandlerman wrote:
Jack, this was a 54mm crank. The new build will be on a 51, though, which I found out after the fact is the recommended stroke per Quattrini for the kit+pipe.

Not better. With a 54mm crank the max safe rpm comes down to 10,000 rpm, when using a cast conrod and/or cast piston. And 11,500rpm is the way less safe limit.
With a 51mm crank the port timing will be lower but still going to need a forged conrod. Is one in the box?
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Lucky
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Jack221 wrote:
Not better. With a 54mm crank the max safe rpm comes down to 10,000 rpm, when using a cast conrod and/or cast piston. And 11,500rpm is the way less safe limit.
With a 51mm crank the port timing will be lower but still going to need a forged conrod. Is one in the box?
That's great information, Jack. I vaguely recall reading about how to calculate that in Bell, but didn't realize I'd gotten to the point that it actually mattered.

I think I shared the link above, but the crank is the Quattrini 51-102, which also has thicker webs, but requires their cases. Forged Conrod and rated to over 40HP, which is also what this kit+pipe combo is supposed to give me.

Not cheap, but not expensive compared to replacing everything again.

On an unrelated note, those who theorized they my clutch plate damage was from the explosion, the damage would have been on the back of the tabs. That damage was all go-fast.
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Jet Eye Master
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UTC quote
chandlerman wrote:
That's great information, Jack. I vaguely recall reading about how to calculate that in Bell, but didn't realize I'd gotten to the point that it actually mattered.

I think I shared the link above, but the crank is the Quattrini 51-102, which also has thicker webs, but requires their cases. Forged Conrod and rated to over 40HP, which is also what this kit+pipe combo is supposed to give me.

Not cheap, but not expensive compared to replacing everything again.

On an unrelated note, those who theorized they my clutch plate damage was from the explosion, the damage would have been on the back of the tabs. That damage was all go-fast.
With that kit and pipe it is way into what Bell wrote about rpm. With smallies (no clutch on the crank) the bhp possibilities are similar to race bikes. Plenty of high rpm stuff on YouTube.

That quattrini crank is a 13,000rpm crank. Full circle on cylinder induction is the highest bhp format. Quattrini piston will be up to the job. So all set for round 2. Expecting this to be running about a week after package delivery.
Carb will need a sharper needle and a set of bigger main jets to keep it all shiny inside.

Clutches are a problem at 40+ bhp. My 221 needs new steels and XXXL springs every few thousand miles. CR80 plates last for 2 sets of steels. That Fabri clutch going in this time? Hopefully up to the abuse.
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Lucky
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Jack221 wrote:
With that kit and pipe it is way into what Bell wrote about rpm. With smallies (no clutch on the crank) the bhp possibilities are similar to race bikes. Plenty of high rpm stuff on YouTube.

That quattrini crank is a 13,000rpm crank. Full circle on cylinder induction is the highest bhp format. Quattrini piston will be up to the job. So all set for round 2. Expecting this to be running about a week after package delivery.
Carb will need a sharper needle and a set of bigger main jets to keep it all shiny inside.

Clutches are a problem at 40+ bhp. My 221 needs new steels and XXXL springs every few thousand miles. CR80 plates last for 2 sets of steels. That Fabri clutch going in this time? Hopefully up to the abuse.
Yes, I'll be running the Fabbri FB46, which should be well up to the task at hand. I'll have to get some needs, but have plenty of bigger mains. I'd already gone up to a 170 on the main, but only a stock DGJ needle. I tried it one clip richer at one point, but it was too rich, so I went back to 3rd.

I guess it'll be time to go shopping at JetsRUs in the not-too-distant future...
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New kit and clutch basket arrived today. It's a hardened Fabbri Racing basket with Straight cut gears, so it should be up to the task at hand. It wasn't that much more money than just a "regular" replacement basket. Go figure.

The rest of the new bits are due to arrive from SIP tomorrow. I got a demand for another $75 of customs duties & fees from UPS for that one today .

Build will start this weekend.
mmm...go-fast parts...
mmm...go-fast parts...
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Lucky
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The second box arrived today. Naturally, the instructions with the cases are forcing another order for bearings and seals if I don't have the necessary bits on my horde.

The workmanship on the cases is generally outstanding. They need most of the edges chamfered, though. I already made a blood sacrifice just getting them out of the box.

The good news is no Dremel work required to fit the cylinder to the cases and the deck is so smooth and tight that you can't even see the seam.

Instructions that came with the case (Google Translate-d):
Quote:
Quattrini engine casing

Main bearings size 52-25-15 tolerance C4

Main oil seals size 35-24-7 double lip material Viton+PTFE (HV) To insert the bearings help yourself by heating the seats with a hair dryer Only Loctite 510 should be placed between the two crankcase halves

Respect the measurements of the screws indicated on the back and tighten at 0.8-1 kg. When the work is completed, put 500 grams of mineral oil into the engine

These apart from the crankcase, shaft, main bearings and main oil seals fit all the components of the original engine, it is possible to fit the original ignition by adapting it but it is not recommended. The flat crankcase inlet is already set up for cylinders with a hub diameter of 64.8.
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Gorgeous
Gorgeous
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those are a work of art
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Purdy.
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Lucky
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They are beautiful, but I'm annoyed (though not surprised) that they take nonstandard bearings and seals.

Those are now ordered, but also mean I can't argue the top end until probably next weekend or later.
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Hooked
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UTC quote
If those poor, beautiful bastards only knew the life that is in store for them Laughing emoticon

They look awesome!
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Lucky
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brok3nr0b0t wrote:
If those poor, beautiful bastards only knew the life that is in store for them Laughing emoticon

They look awesome!
They know. If they didn't, it'd be like a racehorse saying, "you want me to run? Like...all the time?"
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Wow. I think this is a step in to a whole other level- practical a different dimension. This ought to rock your world for a while.
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Lucky
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I need this banner.
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So are your shooting for the 100mph club with this new engine build?
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Nedminder
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Gracious, those are sexy.
I'd be scared to just have a wrench slip and mar a surface!
You are a brave man to take this on - in public.
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Just a little trip to the liquor store…


…at 90 mph in 3rd gear…
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Lucky
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orwell84 wrote:
Just a little trip to the liquor store…


…at 90 mph in 3rd gear…
You say this like it's a bad thing! ROFL emoticon
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Those cases are another thing! No wonder no need for a gasket.

(Actually does a normal gasket fit?)

Websites should list out the bearings and seals used with these cases.

Would make life a lot simpler.

Can't wait to see the build being put together!
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chandlerman wrote:
You say this like it's a bad thing! ROFL emoticon
I just imagine you whispering that to your new engine case…
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Nedminder
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orwell84 wrote:
I just imagine you whispering that to your new engine case…
Those cases could see some lube tnight.

Just sayin
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Lucky
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Lucky
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charlieman22 wrote:
Those cases could see some lube tnight.

Just sayin
ROFL emoticon

Those cases went to bed (and woke up this morning) just like I found them yesterday afternoon. I swear!

While I'm not going to have main bearings or seals for another week (or more! Crying or Very sad emoticon), there's still a fair amount I can do in the meantime, like getting the gearbox and most of the ancillary bits installed, rebuilding the clutch, fabricating a water pump cover (they provided a plug, but not a cover plate. Go figure.), etc.

I will probably also chamfer the worst of the sharp edges since I now have the time.

Finally, here's a little more (parts) pr0n for those who can't seem to get enough of that sort of thing...the crank. First off, this thing is *heavy*. I'll have to get a proper weight for it, but the thicker webs add a lot of mass. I was really surprised. It'll get a trip to the trueing stand later and we'll see how it measures up on that front later.
Conrod, don't fail me now!
Conrod, don't fail me now!
Thicc
Thicc
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Jet Eye Master
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Jet Eye Master
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UTC quote
Crank looks good for 15k rpm at least. Won't be that issue this time.
Is 2.0 using the case reed or cylinder reed like before? If not using the case reed it will need stuffing with a dummy block before covering. Did they supply that?
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Lucky
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Jack221 wrote:
Crank looks good for 15k rpm at least. Won't be that issue this time.
Is 2.0 using the case reed or cylinder reed like before? If not using the case reed it will need stuffing with a dummy block before covering. Did they supply that?
I'll be using the cylinder reed again.

These cases are designed for the M1L60S. The case reed block is cast in, but sealed off, so nothing to do there. Maybe I'll use that space to store a spare spark plug or something.
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Lucky
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Lucky
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One more note...I weighed the crank. 1.953Kg. Like I said: heavy.
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Progressive dual 26mm smartcarb setup, lighter reeds on cylinder, heavier reeds on case.
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When it comes to tuning, I'm about as dumb as a box of rocks. This thread is making my head spin - it's like you guys are talking a different language. Wha? emoticon I really hope this works out good for you, C. I do foresee one problem - you may want to look into some kind of disc brake for the rear wheel because the front isn't going to be doing any braking with it being up in the air all the time.
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Jet Eye Master
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Jet Eye Master
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UTC quote
chandlerman wrote:
I'll be using the cylinder reed again.

These cases are designed for the M1L60S. The case reed block is cast in, but sealed off, so nothing to do there. Maybe I'll use that space to store a spare spark plug or something.
Well that saves time. Sure they could have done similar for the water pump.

Measured the ports on the new cylinder? With the shorter stroke on 2.0 some compromises might need to be made.
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Lucky
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Allegedly, this setup is the optimal build per Quattrini. 42 HP. annoyingly, though, they don't seem to publish the port timings that produced that.

Still, buying them whole setup and just assembling feels a bit like cheating. I'll probably get over it if I can get a 42HP build, though. Razz emoticon
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You get the 42 bhp when every single factor is optimal. Quattrini always supply a pile of base gaskets to adjust out the tolerances. Most use them to adjust the squish but the highest bhp often requires a compromise. Measuring stuff is how to adjust your particular engine.
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Lucky
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Lucky
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Exactly.

I wish they'd publish the specs for their optimal build. Of course, assuming I'm even in the ballpark, I'm going to just ride the shit out of it and go on to my next project.
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Our Lady of Sorrows
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That crank looks insane, I don't think I've heard of a heavier Vespa crank!

Was nosey-ing on the oil seal and bearings…

What flywheel seal does it use? A ets crank seal? 24x32x7?
@orwell84 avatar
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It's a compartment for the reactor core. It uses little plutonium rods that look like cush drive needle bearings.

Is that a kit, like a Malossi case + 210 kit?

Looks like really nice hardware.
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Lucky
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Lucky
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orwell84 wrote:
It's a compartment for the reactor core. It uses little plutonium rods that look like cush drive needle bearings.
Shh! Don't tell. People complain when they find out you're emitting rads from your tailpipe!
orwell84 wrote:
Is that a kit, like a Malossi case + 210 kit?

Looks like really nice hardware.
It's effectively a kit. It's the full matched Quattrini stack (cases+crank+cylinder+exhaust). I'm hoping it'll be a little easier (i.e. Dremel-free) assembly than Smallstate 1.0 was.
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Lucky
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Lucky
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108 wrote:
That crank looks insane, I don't think I've heard of a heavier Vespa crank!

Was nosey-ing on the oil seal and bearings…

What flywheel seal does it use? A ets crank seal? 24x32x7?
No, it's the arbitrary size they picked, 35-24-7. I had to source them and the bearings by spec.

Yesterday was cleaning out the last of the hardware off the old cases. The only thing I couldn't get out (yet) were the brake plate studs. If worse comes to worse, I'll just use M8 bolts to start, but I still have a lot of tools in the box for getting them out. And if that doesn't work...there's always teh Interwebs...
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Thought sip or scooter center would sell the seals but I couldn't find them.

Double lipped seals sounds cool though.

Cases didn't come with studs? That's a pain.
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Are you sure it's a 24mm?? Quattrini says it's the same (20mm) for both sides…

https://www.sip-scootershop.com/en/product/oil-seal-quattrini-crankcase-clutch-flywheel-side-corteco-35x20x7-mm_71643000

And that cone looks big. Does the Vape flywheel fit??
OP
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Lucky
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First off, thank you all for making me paranoid Razz emoticon

I went out and measured and the seals and bearings from the Quattrini instructions look to be correct in their sizings.

I also confirmed the flywheel fits the cone.

So there!
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