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Good to know. So the seal is the same as on the modern Piaggio engines or P/PXs as single lip…

https://www.sip-scootershop.com/en/product/oil-seal-crankshaft-corteco-24x35x7-mm_43458200
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SaFiS wrote:
Good to know. So the seal is the same as on the modern Piaggio engines or P/PXs as single lip…

https://www.sip-scootershop.com/en/product/oil-seal-crankshaft-corteco-24x35x7-mm_43458200
Oh yeah… it is….Lol!

Nothing came up with a 24 35 7 search. But it's the same size as a good old PX seal!!
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chandlerman wrote:
First off, thank you all for making me paranoid Razz emoticon

I went out and measured and the seals and bearings from the Quattrini instructions look to be correct in their sizings.

I also confirmed the flywheel fits the cone.

So there!
Sorry man!

Just fun to dig into the parts needed for certain setups.

so if the day comes, I'll know what to look for in a quattrini!

Even for my egig 170, I totally have the wrong bearings in I should be using c3's but I'm not sure what I have in at the moment. :/
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108 wrote:
Sorry man!
It's all good. I just wish someone had been able to give the the heads-up that the Quattrini cases take non-standard bearings and seals so I wouldn't be waiting a week or more to start assembly.
108 wrote:
Just fun to dig into the parts needed for certain setups.

so if the day comes, I'll know what to look for in a quattrini!

Even for my egig 170, I totally have the wrong bearings in I should be using c3's but I'm not sure what I have in at the moment. :/
I completely respect them specifying the parts at that level of detail. I just wish I'd had some up-front transparency on the topic so I could have reduced my cycle time.
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I think I ended up ordering 3 separate runs for seals…

1 time for the clutch and 2 for the flywheel side.

And let's not mention the time I forgot to order the back brake plate seal…

Glad I could buy bearings locally, but doesn't save you buying the wrong variations. Lol
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UTC quote
Just watch carnage video on my 65" TV, that is really impressive on big screen.
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Christopher_55934 wrote:
Just watch carnage video on my 65" TV, that is really impressive on big screen.
ROFL emoticon

My work here is finished, then!

I should have all the missing parts before the weekend, which means there's nothing stopping me from getting everything back in one piece. I'm even being left without adult supervision, so I don't even have to take time off to go be social.
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chandlerman wrote:
I'm even being left without adult supervision, so I don't even have to take time off to go be social.
The best type of "me time".
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An old Plasterer I apprenticed under years ago told me- "When you are working by yourself, you are in the best of company".
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Tierney wrote:
An old Plasterer I apprenticed under years ago told me- "When you are working by yourself, you are in the best of company".
If the homeowner helps, it costs extra.
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orwell84 wrote:
If the homeowner helps, it costs extra.
Ha! The truth! And you if you are doing a freebie, it has to be perfect, way better than if you were getting paid double.
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Bearings and seals are here!

While I probably won't make any progress until the weekend, I have all the relevant bits to see me through to a running motor now, and all of it arrived earlier than I was expecting.

I'm really digging this two-piece FAG bearing I got for the fly side. It has a lip on the race, so it locks into the outer, so the crank will be fully laterally supported--no shifting possible.

CM2, I'm surprised you didn't use one of these on the last round of Unicorn adventures.
Just a normal two-piece bearing, right?
Just a normal two-piece bearing, right?
Or is it?
Or is it?
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chandlerman wrote:
so the crank will be fully laterally supported--no shifting possible.
does it still run a ballbearing (not rollers) on the clutch side? if so that would be locating it, no?
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chandlerman wrote:
Bearings and seals are here!

I'm really digging this two-piece FAG bearing I got for the fly side. It has a lip on the race, so it locks into the outer, so the crank will be fully laterally supported--no shifting possible.

I ended up using the NU204e without the locking race.

Didn't want to have to deal with thinking about the position of the race and if it lined up properly or ended up rubbing against the bearing too much.

Didn't think it would be such a big deal with the smallie as the other side is the primary gear and not a clutch with axial forces when you engage the clutch.

But I did double check the position of the race with a sharpie so everything lines up good.

And I did ask around our usual Italian and German friends, everyone prefers to use 6204 c3 on both sides…

I'm just using a normal 6204 c2 and haven't had any problems yet.
OP
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oopsclunkthud wrote:
does it still run a ballbearing (not rollers) on the clutch side? if so that would be locating it, no?
Yes, it's ball bearings on the clutch side. I went with the two-piece for ease of (dis|as)sembly.

Ironically, as others have pointed out, not only is there no potential clutch pressure (yes, I'm still mentally working on largeframes much of the time) but I swapped to straight-cut gears, so there's *really* no lateral stress.

Regardless, they're probably the smoothest bearings I've ever spun, so I'm going to roll with them.

Good tip on checking fit/clearance with the Sharpie, 108. I'll be doing that for sure.
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UTC quote
I plan to run ceramic bearings from this place in my next build.

https://www.worldwidebearings.com
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Yeah the smallie design is really better than the largeframe design for those reasons, chandlerman. It is an elegant design, and I love how light they are.
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oopsclunkthud wrote:
I plan to run ceramic bearings from this place in my next build.

https://www.worldwidebearings.com
Sign me up!
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oopsclunkthud wrote:
I plan to run ceramic bearings from this place in my next build.

https://www.worldwidebearings.com
That link would have been a lot more useful a week ago! Razz emoticon

That looks really interesting. I'm curious to see how the C4 bearings perform, but will now probably try ceramic in my next build just to see how they feel.

The C4's feel incredibly smooth when I spin them by hand. You can't even feel that it's spinning, which is already better than even the C2? C3? SKF's I've run in the past.
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Current status: Bearings are in, gearbox is mostly assembled, and I decided I should quit while I was ahead when I realized I'd put the gears back on the axle without installing the kickstart gear.

The new Fabbri clutch basket is 3mm taller than the old stock basket was, so I had to do a little dremel work to get it into the cases. I wasn't surprised, but still a little annoyed I had to mess with that.

I also drilled and tapped the cylinder head for a CHT sender. Even with significant measuring, it was still the most nerve wracking part of the build so far, other than maybe pressing the "Submit Order" button on the SIP site.

Lastly, I officially baptized the cases with blood. I hope this sates their desire rather than awakening it, but you never really know with these beasts.

Tomorrow, assuming no nasty surprises, I'll finish the build and hopefully get a successful pressure test, in which case I should be back on the road by Sunday.
Baptism
Baptism
The most nerve wracking part of the build
The most nerve wracking part of the build
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Weird you had to dremel for the clutch basket…

I have the crimaz basket (which I imagine is similar to the fabbri) and didn't need to grind anything on stock v50 series2 cases.

I did stick a shim behind the basket to lift it away from the bearing. But we're talking about 0.5m shim.

Anyways, engine looking awesome
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108 wrote:
Weird you had to dremel for the clutch basket…

I have the crimaz basket (which I imagine is similar to the fabbri) and didn't need to grind anything on stock v50 series2 cases.

I did stick a shim behind the basket to lift it away from the bearing. But we're talking about 0.5m shim.

Anyways, engine looking awesome
I had to do a bit of clearancing on my PK125's clutch cover when i install my Fabbri clutch.
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Busy week - just catching up.
Saw yours & 108s comments on NU bearings.

The reason I chose the NU without the lip:

First - if you recall (I hardly recall) - my motor had worn out the large end bearing on the crank within a few thousand miles.
It was a fancy crank - all shiny and polished.

I guessed it was because both sides of my crank were being held (pressed on bearings) and when I pulled the clutch - it "pinched" the two halves together - because there was always a little flex or movement on the clutch side. The big end rod bearing and pin being at the center - just wore out.

So I decided I wanted to hold the crank on only ONE side.
Believe it or not - with my Frankenbuild - I was actually trying to make it durable as well. I hated that the prior build wore itself out in only 1 or 2 seasons.

I figured if I held it on the fly side - it would still experience that "pinch" (even worse if not held on the clutch side).
So it had to be on the clutch side.

But I needed that clutch side bearing to be retained in the case in a super locked in manner - so that nothing moved.
This insanity is holding my clutch side bearing from being able to move inboard.  The crank is then coated with retaining compound and pulled in. Fly side floats. I didn't want the pinching effect
This insanity is holding my clutch side bearing from being able to move inboard. The crank is then coated with retaining compound and pulled in. Fly side floats. I didn't want the pinching effect
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oopsclunkthud wrote:
I plan to run ceramic bearings from this place in my next build.

https://www.worldwidebearings.com
Ooo.
I want these.
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charlieman22 wrote:
Busy week - just catching up.
Saw yours & 108s comments on NU bearings.

Thread hijack, but CM2, how's the bearing being held in place? There's a lip on the carrier you made?
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whodatschrome wrote:
I had to do a bit of clearancing on my PK125's clutch cover when i install my Fabbri clutch.
Grinding the clutch cover makes sense…

Shouldnt be a problem with the crimaz clutch cover Chandlers using.
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108 wrote:
Grinding the clutch cover makes sense…

Shouldnt be a problem with the crimaz clutch cover Chandlers using.
It kinda looks like the Crimaz is the same as the SIP, which is the same as the Polini, which is the same as the the stock PKXL2 cover...except for the additional geared plunger.
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108 wrote:
Thread hijack, but CM2, how's the bearing being held in place? There's a lip on the carrier you made?
Thought you'd never ask.
🙂
(thanks CM for the space).

At the time - CM and Jack were both making the point:
- my clutch AND my primary on the large frame put axial pressure on crankshaft.
- as I made it more powerful - that got worse.

Looking at the pictures now - I honestly don't know exactly how I got there - or if I could successfully do it again.
Working on my suspension today - I felt like a total hack.
I ground a rib around the perimeter of the bearing
I ground a rib around the perimeter of the bearing
So my retaining ring would sit almost flush
So my retaining ring would sit almost flush
Then I milled an indentation in the case.  I was balancing getting the retaining ring thick enough not to flex, with how deep I could seat it with this indent.
Then I milled an indentation in the case. I was balancing getting the retaining ring thick enough not to flex, with how deep I could seat it with this indent.
Then put the ing in.
Then put the ing in.
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Ah, so the bearing was ground down on the side facing the flywheel? And the plate has a small lip grabbing onto the bearing?

Crazy town… that thing isn't going anywhere soon!
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All good, CM2 I'd forgotten the details of your customization and that the goal was to lock in the clutch side and let the fly side..well...fly free.

For the clutch, it was the *basket* that was interfering with the cases and not wanting to seat. The combination of the Fabbri basket being taller than stock, combined with the cases being thicker than stock, made things a bit tight. There was also some flashing from the casting that I ground down in there that gave me a little more wiggle room, too.

These cases are consistently thicker and more heavily engineered across the board. Every bearing seat is significantly thicker. The castings are thicker. The ribbing is thicker. Basically, if it can be made stronger while still matching the basic spec's, they did it.

They also re-engineered a few things, such as flipping the the clutch side bearing seat so it installs from the clutch side. Pressure now rides on the cases rather than a circlip. And, as previously-noted, it uses P-style externally-replaceable seals, so you can replace both crank seals without splitting the cases. (see below)

In hindsight, as others all immediately noted, I probably shouldn't have gone with that lipped bearing, but it's in and not interfering, so I'm not going to worry about it until next rebuild. Those C4 bearings are spooky-smooth, though. I highly recommend them over the C2 and C3's that most people use in these motors. I'm still curious about those ceramic bearings that Patrick linked to above, too.

Meanwhile, I'm thinking that a small Santeria shrine might be just the thing to live in my unused reed intake. Just a little bit of rum and a puff of 2t smoke periodically should be just the thing to keep Elegba happy and opening doors and roads for me. Razz emoticon
⚠️ Last edited by chandlerman on UTC; edited 1 time
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Smart moves all round from Quatrinni.

Reversing the circlip and especially being able to replace the crank seals without splitting the cases.

How's the crank clutch side seal work though? So it's next to the primary gear?
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Just looking back through last couple pages to digest the case design.
Lots of pretty parts!

So do the crank bearings press in to aluminum directly, without a brass bearing seat - ala p200 motors?

We're they tough to insert?
Is there some kind of restating clip(s) on the outside of the bearing also?

Sounds well designed.

As for the lipped bearing - it sounds like u have little to no axial loads - so as long as there is a small gap allowing a hair of lateral movement, there will be no binding.

In head cht will be a little nerve racking at first - it's gonna read hotter. On my large frame, at least 50f at 300 degrees.
If u have a used plug (pre colored) with zero spalling on it - i find it can be a good means of catching any detonation early as u recalibrate everything.
OP
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There are really no axial loads to worry about on the crank, especially with the straight cut gears. It's a huge design improvement versus the largeframe. So you have the gearing reduction happening before the clutch rather than at the clutch, meaning that those bearings aren't spinning as fast, either. Just a really good design, all around.

And 108, I may have to retract my original statement that you can replace that clutch side bearing without splitting the cases, because I don't think the primary will come off with the clutch basket in place. So close, but not quite there
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Houston, we have a problem.

I discovered when I went to do the final dry fit of the cases that my kickstart quadrant's is 16mm in diameter, but the seat in the cases is only 14mm.

So do I order a different/correct quadrant or just sand out the seat to 16mm?

Perhaps more specifically, Is the any reason I *shouldn't* modify the cases to fit my quadrant?
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Mill the quadrant down to 14mm?
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garncarz wrote:
Mill the quadrant down to 14mm?
In the absence of a lathe, that's not really an option for me, but I would absolutely go that route if it were.

I think it really comes down to not wanting to spend $50 for a new quadrant+shipping and then have to wait for it to arrive.

Also, this is the kickstart we're talking about. It mostly just sits there. I just want to be sure before I go crazy.
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My bad. I saw the other c-man's lathe above and that it was yours.
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garncarz wrote:
My bad. I saw the other c-man's lathe above and that it was yours.
I don't think the world is ready for that. Razz emoticon
@orwell84 avatar
UTC

Ossessionato
Joined: UTC
Posts: 3127
Location: northern New York
 
Ossessionato
@orwell84 avatar
Joined: UTC
Posts: 3127
Location: northern New York
UTC quote
Sorry to jump in, a bit off topic. I am always pondering possible ways to do engine case repairs and came across this…

https://www.harborfreight.com/power-tools/drills-drivers/drill-driver-accessories/attachments/2-inch-boring-bar-head-33562.html

Wondering if this could be used with a homemade jig to repair welded rotary pads, or increase depth/radius for different cranks. Kind of like the Dremel setup you did. It worked better than it looked.
@oopsclunkthud avatar
UTC

Banned
3:5
Joined: UTC
Posts: 8965
Location: San Francisco
 
Banned
@oopsclunkthud avatar
3:5
Joined: UTC
Posts: 8965
Location: San Francisco
UTC quote
order the correct quadrant.

I didn't even know there were differences
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