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Lucky
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oopsclunkthud wrote:
order the correct quadrant.

I didn't even know there were differences
The only published difference is that some have 11 teeth and some have 12. Mine has 11 teeth. No mention of shaft diameter anywhere. Like...anywhere...

Also, my kickstart gear doesn't have the spiral spring, it has has a leaf washer that sits on a plate on top of the bearing.

The whole VMA1T kickstart design appears to be a bastard variant from all other models. The 125 Nuova diagrams are the closest match, and even those aren't perfect.

Final note...the clutch side of the shaft fits perfectly. It's just the seat on the fly side that's problematic. Which, the more I think about it, the less sense that would make from a manufacturing and design perspective.

I'm getting very close to busting out the sanding drums, even if it's not the "right" thing to do. If worse ever comes to worse, I can drop in a 1mm bushing to take it back to 14mm.
OP
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Lucky
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Sooo...I went for it...and it worked

I used a small drum on the Dremel and took out just enough material that the kickstart shaft would fit, did a dry fit and all was well, so now other than finding the instructions for which bolts go where to finish bolting it all up, I'm ready to move on to the cylinder. Naturally, I was a dummy and only took a picture of the front of the instructions, not the back, so I have to find the actual piece of paper, which is hiding from me.

Loctite 510 flange sealant, which is what Quattrini specified, is hot pink. I dig it.
I just realized I missed a spot.  Damnit.
I just realized I missed a spot. Damnit.
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Nedminder
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Nedminder
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Quote:
Wondering if this could be used with a homemade jig to repair welded rotary pads, or increase depth/radius for different cranks.
Unfortunately not...
I made a jig - and messed around with it - and it was a pretty good jig!
The precision required is .002mm clearance.
Same as the big end rod bearing to crank on your VW I'm guessing.
Just so crazy tight.
Thats why I went with bonding a pad in place with crank in there already.

CM - you are a mad man.
Im not completely clear what you had to sand away - but its tru - you can always sleeve.
In fact... you can always cut a sleeve - and bond it in - while assembling - so that it self centers.
Ask me how I know.
🙂
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Lucky
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charlieman22 wrote:
CM - you are a mad man.
Im not completely clear what you had to sand away - but its tru - you can always sleeve.

In fact... you can always cut a sleeve - and bond it in - while assembling - so that it self centers.
Ask me how I know.
🙂
I'm a mad man with a motor that just passed its pressure test.

Ignition, tire, crankcase oil, and exhaust will all happen in the morning and then I'll probably go ahead and just put it back in the bike for First Start, I just won't hook up anything.

That's actually easier since the carb is in the bike and, me being an optimist, I'm choosing to think it'll save me work that I'll be doing anyway by lunchtime.

The kickstart shaft seats into the circled socket. Except in my case(s), it didn't. So I took a drum sander to it and now it does.

What was incredibly weird was that while the shaft measured 16mm, both that seat and the seat on my destroyed cases measured 14.5, so it *should* have fit. I put the difference in measurement down to using the inner vs. outer measures on my calipers. Regardless, it's all good now.
I'll be annoying the neighbors first thing in the morning!
I'll be annoying the neighbors first thing in the morning!
Sand in the red circle
Sand in the red circle
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Lucky
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Also, I forgot to measure ports, but squish is .9mm, which is right on spec. I'll measure the dead cylinder to get port timings and work out the deck height from squish.
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Hooked
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Looking awesome! I'm totally impressed with the speed at which you've gone from grenaded to rebuilt. And next I'm sure I'll be impressed with the speed of the scoot itself! Great job dude.
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More often than not - I end up setting my timings to the squish target for all intents and purposes.

I've blathered on about how different everyone's port timing measures are in any event - and that's just vs THEMSELVES in a 5 min measure/remeasure loop.
🙂

Nail squish if port timings are close.
The ride and see if you want the port timings higher.
Can't beat feel for knowing for sure.

🙂

Cant believe you dremeled that hole.
Well - actually - I sorta can.
This thing is GONNA get built this weekend.
Seriously - if you are ever unhappy with it - McMaster car will sell you a brass bushing that will fit perfectly to your quadrant - and you can bond it in to the case.
Just grind it out slightly too large and then it will self center when bonding - as previously noted...

🙂

Excited for your start up!
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Jet Eye Master
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UTC quote
chandlerman wrote:
Also, I forgot to measure ports, but squish is .9mm, which is right on spec. I'll measure the dead cylinder to get port timings and work out the deck height from squish.
No hanging around in your workshop. Each cylinder is individual, the tolerance and transfer balance vary considerably but from the dead cylinder will give an idea of where it is. And what might be needed next time it's off.
While running in, increase the pilot jet so it feels a little heavy (rich) as the throttle just starts to open. Raise the needle to give a light splutter at 1/4 throttle cruise.
If you keep it like this for a few tanks of gas it will run in with no damage at all.
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Glad you could get that engine together - you can't keep a good man down!
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Quote:
While running in, increase the pilot jet so it feels a little heavy (rich) as the throttle just starts to open. Raise the needle to give a light splutter at 1/4 throttle cruise.
If you keep it like this for a few tanks of gas it will run in with no damage at all.
Seems excellent advice even for standard SI carb users (using idle and perhaps emulsion tube or main to achieve same).

In the mean time - I feel like the cousin in the waiting room of the hospital - as the young daughter is operated on. All smarties and Cheetos until CM comes out of the OR and tells us how it's gone.
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chandlerman wrote:
Also, my kickstart gear doesn't have the spiral spring, it has has a leaf washer that sits on a plate on top of the bearing.

Order a conical spring and cup so next time you have it open you can upgrade. They swap right in. The leaf spring thing tends to wear in two.
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Lucky
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I spent most of today in Stator Hell. Short version is that I'm not entirely certain how to proceed, at a minimum in the short term, with getting the stator where it needs to be.

In order to get the stator to fit onto the cases at all, I had to take a chunk out of them to clear the unused transfer port. Then, I determined that I'm firing well after TDC, so obviously not running.

I managed to get a picture of the timing by shooting a slow-motion video of the timing light when I kicked it over. That's adjusted to 24 BTDC, so as you can see in the arc, I have a fair amount of counter-rotation of the stator I need to do. My rough estimate is about 60-65 degrees. And there's just. not. room.

So I called it for the evening. I'll pick it back up in the morning. If I can relocate things enough for proper timing, I'll use the existing plate for now and probably order a replacement and re-fit to just what I need to remove on it.

Meh.
The arc of bad spark
The arc of bad spark
Making it fit.
Making it fit.
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Nedminder
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Cm - can you get away with bringing outboard with some shims so it clears for rotation?
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Lucky
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I doubt it. The magnet wheel already rubs on the securing bolts if I don't have them thoroughly cranked down.

To make matters worse, the wires off the stator will be right in the midst of all that, too.
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Nedminder
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Got it.
Looks to me like maybe you could instead trim back the stator plate more - like u did. Along red line (but only where needed) - and then use the lands they provide to drill and tap holding spots?

Arrow in second pic is of the lands.
Not sure how u would center. Maybe something slipped around the crank that was a net fit to inside hole of stator plate. Bring it to my shop and we can turn something!
Rough trim line
Rough trim line
These lands
These lands
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bodgemaster
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Spitballin ...
Forum member supplied image with no explanatory text
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Cm, I think you've cut the plate in the wrong place.

The timing marks should be pointing towards the cylinder head. So with the current position (in the photo), you'll be firing way past TDC.

To make life easier, a fabbri plate could save your woes
Forum member supplied image with no explanatory text
Plate turned to point towards cylinder. Red wire is how the stator wire should leave the case
Plate turned to point towards cylinder. Red wire is how the stator wire should leave the case
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parallelogramerist
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parallelogramerist
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PK125XL engine with a VAPE...
Forum member supplied image with no explanatory text
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Lucky
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SoCalGuy wrote:
Spitballin ...
Nope, that's where the wiring comes out if the coils were installed.

I think 108 has the best suggestion with that Fabbri base plate. The real problem is that the port is higher than the plane of the stator plate, so any plate has to have a cutout there.

It fit the old cases with just a bit of tweaking. I don't know if I can save this one, though.
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Yeah even if you cut in the right place, seems like it will hit something.

The fabbri plate seems to be raised in the right places.

That's a pain and a half…

Props for getting the timing light shot… that must've been not easy…
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Lucky
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108 wrote:
Props for getting the timing light shot… that must've been not easy…
I semi-cheated. I shot it as 8x slo-mo, so the camera was running at like 200 FPS. Then I just had to go find the strobe frames.

I probably spent close to two hours prior to that just trying to get a good idea of when it was firing. And for some reason, my timing light won't strobe if I pull the spark plug to ground it to the frame and spin it with a drill. Not fast enough, maybe.
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Still, that's thought and effort.

I thought about doing that to double check my timing marks.

Then I'm like "meh… it'll do"
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Ossessionato
1979 P150X, 1983 P200E, 1987 PK125XL Elestart, 1988 T5, 1995 PX200E, 2011 Yamaha Fazer 600 S2
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Here's the modified plate for the SIP cases. SIP says needs further cutting for the Quattrini cases…

https://www.sip-scootershop.com/en/product/stator-plate-sip-performance-by-vape-engine-case-sip-evo_51009120
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Lucky
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SaFiS wrote:
Here's the modified plate for the SIP cases. SIP says needs further cutting for the Quattrini cases…

https://www.sip-scootershop.com/en/product/stator-plate-sip-performance-by-vape-engine-case-sip-evo_51009120
Thanks, SaFiS!

Regardless of whether or not I succeed today, that's on the way. I'm going to have another run at it today, and have a few more tricks up my sleeve still.
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chandlerman wrote:
I'm going to have another run at it today, and have a few more tricks up my sleeve still.
Popcorn emoticon Popcorn emoticon
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Lucky
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Interim update...the operation was a success.

I managed to slide the coils back 120 degrees, but now I have a new problem. I'm too far back. I think I can work with this, though.

Back out to the workshop...
After surgery
After surgery
over-achieving
over-achieving
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Lucky
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Progress...

Timing is still way too advanced. Like...30 degrees too advanced. Runs pretty well, considering.

I'm not finished doing battle with the stator plate, even if I have the new one coming. I just want to know for sure that when I Dremel the new one, it's only going to be what's necessary.
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It's alive! Good man.
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Lucky
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I. Fucking. Did it.

Cut sections of 3mm/1/8" aluminum and welded on the missing outer rim sections I needed. Adjusted timing to where I'd eyeballed it and fired it up.

Much better. Now I guess I can put it back into the bike.

Forum member supplied image with no explanatory text
Final form
Final form
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Veni, Vidi, Posti
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Veni, Vidi, Posti
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ooh baby, that sounds incredible. What pipe do you have on there?
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Lucky
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Tierney wrote:
ooh baby, that sounds incredible. What pipe do you have on there?
It's the Quattrini M3-150-S. It's the matched pipe to the M1L-60S top end. Basically, the motor wound up being the whole Quattrini stack.
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Nedminder
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Who needs a lathe!
Go rich!
Think of March!

Also - for fun - we could turn a new plate for you.
🙂
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Lucky
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charlieman22 wrote:
Who needs a lathe!
Go rich!
Think of March!

Also - for fun - we could turn a new plate for you.
🙂
Yes! March! I'm starting to assemble my parts manifest and adding up weight now.

I'd be down for turning a new plate just for the experience, even if I don't need a new plate.

Engine-wise, I need to richen the needle a clip, put it in the bike, then change my mix to 4% for the next two tanks of gas.

I thought something was wrong with the gearbox, but it turned out I'd overtightened the selector arm bolt. Fixed that and now it shifts like buttah, even just turning the arm with my fingers.

It's probably a good thing it started raining earlier, because I'm tired and sore enough without the added strain of having installed the motor.
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What a start up!

Stator plate looks like it's had a rough day…

CM has probably had a rougher one though!

Airstriker looks insane… I'm always a fan of the keihin carb.
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Hooked
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And here it took me half the day just to drill the rivets out of my cush drive. You're a mad scientist, in the best way! Motor sounds killer!
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parallelogramerist
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Just make sure that the stator plate doesn't have any deflection while the flywheel is spinning. When the first Vespatronics were released many years ago, some of the very first ones were prone to having their stator plate cracking. After that the plates got a small redesign to be stronger.
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Ossessionato
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Is this hacking and stitching par the course with these kinds of high-performance builds?
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Not So Moderator
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Dig it.

That engine sounds angry. Good angry, congrats!
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nomadinsiam wrote:
Is this hacking and stitching par the course with these kinds of high-performance builds?
Yeah I think it comes with the territory.

Some of it can be avoided I think… but you have to plan with a pinch of nasa engineering type precision…
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Lucky
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UTC quote
108 wrote:
Yeah I think it comes with the territory.

Some of it can be avoided I think… but you have to plan with a pinch of nasa engineering type precision…
Some of it can be avoided, some of it is inevitable. It's the natural evolution of the "re-pop parts are never quite the same" multiplied by the "we're going to fix this design deficiency in the original." So you wind up with things like transfers that intrude into the plane of the stator plate, and the rest is history.

Basically, if you can't add metal to things, your tuning is ultimately going to be limited, and JBWeld only gets you so far.

In yesterday's case, the hack n' slash, followed by rebuild, of the stator plate was semi-avoidable if I'd hacked away the correct portion of the stator the first time I went at it. As it was, I could have waited a week for a new stator plate, but I didn't want to do that, even though I have ordered a new plate. Once it arrives, I'll either use the existing plate as a guide for what I need to cut back or, more likely, just roll with what I've got until something goes wrong.
whodatschrome wrote:
Just make sure that the stator plate doesn't have any deflection while the flywheel is spinning. When the first Vespatronics were released many years ago, some of the very first ones were prone to having their stator plate cracking. After that the plates got a small redesign to be stronger.
Yeah, I was very careful about that. I welded it with the pieces clamped to a piece of sheet steel and there was zero deflection even on a piece of glass afterwards.
brok3nr0b0t wrote:
And here it took me half the day just to drill the rivets out of my cush drive. You're a mad scientist, in the best way! Motor sounds killer!
More of a Mad Engineer, really, but I'll take it! Razz emoticon And drilling out cush drives suuuuucks. I love that the primary bolts on to my new smallie clutch basket. It took longer to put the springs in place than open & close it.
Birdsnest wrote:
Dig it.

That engine sounds angry. Good angry, congrats!
I know I've been angry, and not necessarily the good kind, more than once over the course of the weekend, but now that I'm over the hump, I'm looking forward to getting it back in the bike and seeing what it can do.
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