chandlerman wrote:



*keyborad damage*
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chandlerman wrote: Down to a 182 and and it's allllllmost there. Just a tiny bit of splutter now. But I'm also still running 4% premix, so I'm going to drop to a 180 and I'm also now through break-in, so I'll go down to 2% at the same time, which may be an even trade. I'm getting REALLY quick on the jetting changes, at least. ![]() The 4% needs a bigger jet. If still noticeable WOT splutter at 182 and going to reduce to 2%, then reducing to 178 would still be over. I would go direct to 175. |
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Jack221 wrote: Going great. Once the MJ is done its already fun to ride. And as the needle gets closer to correct it just gets better and better. Until something breaks ![]() The 4% needs a bigger jet. If still noticeable WOT splutter at 182 and going to reduce to 2%, then reducing to 178 would still be over. I would go direct to 175. It's already fun to ride. Last night, I rode to a dinner and actually needed the crazy acceleration getting on the highway with the world's shortest blender lane. It's amazing at 70-75 MPH. It buzzes like the world's largest chainsaw, but it doesn't sound like it's working hard at all. I still wish I'd gone ahead and done the short fourth, but was already in such sticker shock that I just couldn't commit to the extra $125. That'll absolutely happen when I have the cases open next, though, because it'd be nice to have the power come in closer to 50 MPH than 55 or so. |
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I dropped the main to 175 and the mix to 2%. I didn't get a chance to properly check for stumbling, but there might be a tiny bit.
I got some ride video with my throwaway phone. If it's with watching, I'll post a snippet. It's super-vibratey, but I don't know how the audio is yet. Definitely time to splash out for a GoPro, though. I had a good run out in third, though. Even if I was in a 40 MPH zone... |
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chandlerman wrote: It's amazing at 70-75 MPH. It buzzes like the world's largest chainsaw, but it doesn't sound like it's working hard at all. I would be uneasy about dropping from 175 until you've done a plug chop. If 182 @4% was very slight splutter, the 175 @2% is good. Careful you're not chasing something that isn't there. If the 175 and 182 are from the same set, it's most likely ok where it is. |
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Jack221 wrote: This is definitely the right feeling. When it buzzes in cruise and feels effortless it's at least ballpark. I would be uneasy about dropping from 175 until you've done a plug chop. If 182 @4% was very slight splutter, the 175 @2% is good. Careful you're not chasing something that isn't there. If the 175 and 182 are from the same set, it's most likely ok where it is. No generics for me! I managed to capture a little bit of video (and, more importantly, audio) of it revving out in third gear, plus the return to idle yesterday afternoon. This is the 175 main after I'm back on 2% mix. Time to consider the needle now, I think.
Positive
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Jesus.
Entry points for Bonnivilles and Buicks every 20 feet. Don't y'all believe in parkways out there? Take it easy or your gonna screw up my shop's open house. 🙂 |
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charlieman22 wrote: Jesus. Entry points for Bonnivilles and Buicks every 20 feet. Don't y'all believe in parkways out there? Take it easy or your gonna screw up my shop's open house. 🙂 I was pretty nervous pulling that run, to be honest. My normal test track the industrial park along the river we rode through when you brought the Unicorn to town. Long, four lanes of good cement, and largely empty of traffic, especially on the weekends. Sadly, that's going to go away soon enough as the East Bank Project, a mixed use development and Oracle's new HQ, starts to go up. |
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Thanks for posting that.
I always take a deep breath before checking your updates on this thread. I want to find a cheap GoPro knockoff to do videos of my rides. Definitely a different vibe than yours. More of a mountain meditation kind of video experience. Glad it's running so well. Definitely an impressive feat of tuning. |
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orwell84 wrote: Thanks for posting that. I always take a deep breath before checking your updates on this thread. Glad it's running so well. Definitely an impressive feat of tuning. That thing sounds amazing!!! |
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108 wrote: Yeah, those roads look pretty gnarly. Some deep cracks! Take it easy speed demon…! ![]() orwell84 wrote: Thanks for posting that. I always take a deep breath before checking your updates on this thread. ![]() like this? ![]() orwell84 wrote: I want to find a cheap GoPro knockoff to do videos of my rides. Definitely a different vibe than yours. More of a mountain meditation kind of video experience. Glad it's running so well. Definitely an impressive feat of tuning. I'm going to pick up a proper GoPro between now and ROM, but am not quite there yet. |
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Some of the scariest videos I've seen are made by Indonesian kids…tearing up the highway wearing shorts and flip flops. All that bare flesh and the pavement streaming by gives me the willies.
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The MadChandlerMan strikes again. MosDef watching threw shielded eyes.... and NO EXPLOSION! Great work! It sounds terrifying
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Engine sounds great, but man, flying past those driveways at that speed gave me the willies.
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SoCalGuy wrote: Engine sounds great, but man, flying past those driveways at that speed gave me the willies. Still, I really don't normally do that. Usually I just fit in with traffic. I don't need to wind up in the hospital or the morgue because I went over the hood of a Donk. |
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chandlerman wrote: Agreed. I'm happy with the main at this point. Those jets are all Keihin jets. No generics for me! I managed to capture a little bit of video (and, more importantly, audio) of it revving out in third gear, plus the return to idle yesterday afternoon. This is the 175 main after I'm back on 2% mix. Time to consider the needle now, I think. |
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Jack221 wrote: Like it. Plenty dangerous enough. Leave the 175 where it is. Might change slightly once the needle is done. Which is terrible at the moment. Pilot and main good to move on. Diameter next. Gearing is a little long, got a shorter primary crank gear? I completely agree that 175 is the main for the time being. I almost shortened the gearing, but was already so over budget with Smallstate 2.0 that I skimped out on that, so now I get to pay the price. As to needles, I only have two at this point, the stock DGJ (currently on 4th clip) and a DGH that I accidentally ordered at some point. Given that if they sell sets of N48 needles anywhere, I can't find them, what would you suggest I order for my next spending spree at JetsRUs? |
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Have you thought about investing in a used set of 2 piece zip together leathers? It won't help that much if you T-bone another vehicle, but it will allow you to get right up after you go skipping down the road at 60mph. As long as you're just sliding (and not tumbling), you won't be anymore sore than you would be from a 3 hour session a concrete skate park. Used leathers can be found on craigslist, facebook, ebay.
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chandlerman wrote: Thanks Jack! I completely agree that 175 is the main for the time being. I almost shortened the gearing, but was already so over budget with Smallstate 2.0 that I skimped out on that, so now I get to pay the price. As to needles, I only have two at this point, the stock DGJ (currently on 4th clip) and a DGH that I accidentally ordered at some point. Given that if they sell sets of N48 needles anywhere, I can't find them, what would you suggest I order for my next spending spree at JetsRUs? I assume your carb is one which is extremely expensive to change the atomiser, so we'll run with what you have. Same for the slide. Obviously you set the float height perfect and have a middle weight float. First thing to get done with the needle is the diameter. If you look down the bore of your carb from the engine side. Keep the needle on a high rich clip like 4. Check the point that the needle starts pulling taper out of the atomiser. Hold the throttle about 1mm under this point where only the parallel needle can be seen. This is where it is just running on diameter. Mark the throttle grip at this point. This should be just under 1/4 throttle. The more exact you are the quicker this boring stage will be over. Ride along holding at this throttle position, decide if its rich or lean, adjust the diameter. Every time the needle is changed the airscrew will need a trim. As a general rule, if it doesn't pull it's too lean, if it splutters, too rich. Going to need lots of needles. And as often with the PWK family, the exact one you want they don't make. |
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Jack221 wrote: When the gearing is right it really adds to the fun. I got my 221 so top of 3rd into 4th lands right at 7000 rpm and into the powerband. Really makes high speed merging easy. Does nothing to decrease the danger, those leathers might be a good idea. ![]() I completely agree on the gearing, I'm just not going to tackle it for the time being. That'll more likely be a post-ROM task. Everything else is coming along, though, which is more critical path right now. Jack221 wrote: I assume your carb is one which is extremely expensive to change the atomiser, so we'll run with what you have. Same for the slide. Obviously you set the float height perfect and have a middle weight float. Jack221 wrote: First thing to get done with the needle is the diameter. If you look down the bore of your carb from the engine side. Keep the needle on a high rich clip like 4. Check the point that the needle starts pulling taper out of the atomiser. Hold the throttle about 1mm under this point where only the parallel needle can be seen. This is where it is just running on diameter. Mark the throttle grip at this point. This should be just under 1/4 throttle. The more exact you are the quicker this boring stage will be over. Ride along holding at this throttle position, decide if its rich or lean, adjust the diameter. Every time the needle is changed the airscrew will need a trim. As a general rule, if it doesn't pull it's too lean, if it splutters, too rich. Going to need lots of needles. And as often with the PWK family, the exact one you want they don't make. Assuming I have time, I'll also validate my ear with the DGH, too, which I expect will make things worse, and then it'll be off to buy another round of bits from JetsRUs. |
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Do you have a link or recommendation for some of the safety gear you mentioned?
Something that doesn't look too Tron or 50 shades. Thanks! ![]() This is a bit too butch for a Vespa…
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orwell84 wrote: Do you have a link or recommendation for some of the safety gear you mentioned? Something that doesn't look too Tron or 50 shades. Thanks! ![]() For the hot weather, I have partial mesh jacket & overpants. My hot weather jacket is very slightly Triumph branded (unless I need the rain cover, and then it's VERY Triumph branded), but it's comfortable and provides good protection. I don't think they make it any more, but there's also nothing particularly special about it. I have a couple of jackets with liners, again nothing special. I have a pair of First Gear overpants which are heavy Cordura all over, with extra Cordura on the knees, hips, and butt. They have a zip out liner and are waterproof with lots of padding. on the knees and hip. They can zip to any of my jackets, too. Likewise, I have a pair of Noru Kiryu ventilated pants that I bought after my trip to the ER which I wear most of the time, either over jeans or shorts. Again, can zip to the jackets if I want to. All my gloves are armored, both short/summer and insulated winter gauntlets. I wear some sort of heavy boot, usually my Doc's, a decision that's made easier because the hard sole keeps the kickstarter from poking into the ball of my foot like tennis shoes can. And I always wear my AGV Sportmodular helmet. It's a tiny bit narrow on my head, but really light (carbon fiber) and comfortable overall. I have a little leather captain's hat that I put on top of it, too. ![]() |
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chandlerman wrote: I'rm pretty sure I know what it's going to tell me (splutter), but I'll get it checked today to make sure. This is a new technique for me, but one I definitely *should* have already known. There are many techniques and tests for each particular area. I try to pick ones I think I can easily explain. The downfall is that each jetting stage relies on the previous stage. Like now if the pilot jet & airscrew are not set well, the diameter will be near impossible to get exactly right. However, close enough is still a big improvement. The big test for the diameter is that when correct, it's possible to go for a gentle ride around keeping up with normal traffic speeds. Without ever opening the throttle more than 1/4. Should even go up small hills at 1/4 throttle. |
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chandlerman wrote: You're not going for the, "Hey! That's not a nightstick!" look? That ship sailed when you got a Vespa! ![]() For the hot weather, I have partial mesh jacket & overpants. My hot weather jacket is very slightly Triumph branded (unless I need the rain cover, and then it's VERY Triumph branded), but it's comfortable and provides good protection. I don't think they make it any more, but there's also nothing particularly special about it. I have a couple of jackets with liners, again nothing special. I have a pair of First Gear overpants which are heavy Cordura all over, with extra Cordura on the knees, hips, and butt. They have a zip out liner and are waterproof with lots of padding. on the knees and hip. They can zip to any of my jackets, too. Likewise, I have a pair of Noru Kiryu ventilated pants that I bought after my trip to the ER which I wear most of the time, either over jeans or shorts. Again, can zip to the jackets if I want to. All my gloves are armored, both short/summer and insulated winter gauntlets. I wear some sort of heavy boot, usually my Doc's, a decision that's made easier because the hard sole keeps the kickstarter from poking into the ball of my foot like tennis shoes can. And I always wear my AGV Sportmodular helmet. It's a tiny bit narrow on my head, but really light (carbon fiber) and comfortable overall. I have a little leather captain's hat that I put on top of it, too. ![]() Thank you for the suggestions. The Vespa and my homemade MOD outfit were chick magnets when I was in highschool. Being much older, riding a Vespa presents a more ambiguous visual. Nice to get older and not care about those things anymore. I will take safe over cool any day. |
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Jack221 wrote: Once it's at a rich splutter there's only one direction to go in. There are many techniques and tests for each particular area. I try to pick ones I think I can easily explain. The downfall is that each jetting stage relies on the previous stage. Like now if the pilot jet & airscrew are not set well, the diameter will be near impossible to get exactly right. However, close enough is still a big improvement. The big test for the diameter is that when correct, it's possible to go for a gentle ride around keeping up with normal traffic speeds. Without ever opening the throttle more than 1/4. Should even go up small hills at 1/4 throttle. Diameter -> Taper -> Length ? The catalog of methods is excellent and most appreciated. I need to start a wiki page for all of this info, then go back through my threads as well as a few others where you've talked folks through the process and see what I can put together. My needle selection process has always felt a bit haphazard. That was less of an issue when I was working with an enormous library of needles, but given that I'm now looking at the "predict next progression, order from JetsRus. Wait five days, plus pay another $10 in shipping," I'm trying to balance how I can get ahead of that piece of the process other than saying, "Screw it! Gimme one of everything!" which will solve the wait time, but at a somewhat high cost. orwell84 wrote: Lolol 🤪 Some exchanges just stop threads in their tracks before things get back to business. Thank you for the suggestions. The Vespa and my homemade MOD outfit were chick magnets when I was in highschool. Being much older, riding a Vespa presents a more ambiguous visual. Nice to get older and not care about those things anymore. I will take safe over cool any day. As for safety...I *always* wear jacket, helmet, and gloves. I still wear shorts more than I should, but that's gotten better now that I have the warm weather overpants. If I'm going further than a quick run around the block or my Three Destinations, though, I gear up. I figure that, as noted above, even if all I can do is lay down and slide to avoid hitting something that will break me, I'll at least have a chance of walking away. Also, the amount of gravel and crap in the road here is amazing. The city of Nashville doesn't own any street sweepers, I guess, or they're busy using them to sweep up the barf, empty cups, and drunk tourists down on Broadway. I also like the fact that I can relax just a little bit more on longer runs because while I'm still paying attention, the level of detail can be dialed back just a little bit to do things like enjoy the scenery rather than scanning for the next road hazard. |
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I made some tuning progress. I followed Jack's instructions and marked the throttle just before the needle started to taper and tried riding holding the throttle at that point.
The DGJ would hold steady, but was popping. I initially thought it was stumbling, but on closer listening, realized it was popping because it was lean, like a too-lean bike hunting as it returns to idle. I put in the DGH to see what would happen, and it was significantly better on the needle diameter test. It revs up and will run steadily, including uphill. In second, it even jumps into the power curve. The bike is wanting to hit the power curve and run away from the again...not that I'm complaining . I took it on the highway for a couple miles and it tore happily down the road, throwing a little wheelie action when I gunned it in second on the ramp, then cruising happily at 65, which was all traffic was allowing. I meant to tweak the air screw when I got back and the engine was good n' warm, but just realized I forgot, so that'll get sorted after my next outing. Finally, I fed the stock jetting vs. the current jetting into Kyajet and the visualization is interesting--pretty consistent across the board. Tweaking things a little (and realizing that modeling is not testing ), an EFG needle would produce an almost a dead-consistent mix across the entire jetting range. If it existed. ![]() Meanwhile, back here in Realityland, next up on the needle order list, I'm thinking, will be a DGG to see if I really am rich enough on the diameter, but would appreciate some suggestions as to what my next options might be. ![]() |
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It's just great when it works. Sounds like it's correct. Once it will go uphill on 1/4 throttle it's pretty close. Now you know the diameter is probably H.
I always find once the diameter is done it instantly becomes easier to ride. Just a few variables to go. Next is taper but saves some time to do the straight length too. Set the clip to splutter on cruise at 1/3 throttle but ok on acceleration. See what clip that is and adjust to get you on clip 3. This is just rough but usually good enough. Taper is the hardest to do on a PWK. Take out the main jet and see how high it revs past half throttle. |
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Jack221 wrote: It's just great when it works. Sounds like it's correct. Once it will go uphill on 1/4 throttle it's pretty close. Now you know the diameter is probably H. I always find once the diameter is done it instantly becomes easier to ride. Just a few variables to go. Next is taper but saves some time to do the straight length too. Set the clip to splutter on cruise at 1/3 throttle but ok on acceleration. See what clip that is and adjust to get you on clip 3. This is just rough but usually good enough. Taper is the hardest to do on a PWK. Take out the main jet and see how high it revs past half throttle. When you say, "And adjust to get to on clip 3," do you mean calculate the length of L1, adjusted by (in my case) .9mm? The only option I have with a D taper is DCH, which is going to put me clear up on 1st or 2nd clip (39.95mm to 36.35mm, 3.6mm shorter L1)). If I look for D length options, that has me looking at a DEG or a DEJ. If G turned out to be a good diameter, that's fine. If a G diameter is too rich, though, then I'm back to 4th clip on the DGH. For taper, I've seen you say to find how far the motor will rev with no main. The target there is 3/4 throttle, correct? When I was finding the main, I could always "jump past" the stumbling portion of the throttle below the power curve by staying in the 1/2-3/4 throttle on the needle in a lower gear, getting the revs up, then upshifting. That was even the case with the 210 main. Right now, the transition from needle to main feels really good. I'll pull the main out and test for sure, but probably not until the weekend. In the meantime, I've gone ahead and ordered (so they'll get here by the weekend): - a DEG, which might or might not get me back on 3rd clip, plus confirm I'm rich enough on diameter; - an EEG and EEH* for the richer taper, so I'm covered for both diameters - Some needle shims, because I can't find mine ![]() * I doubt it will wind up being the EEH. If I need to be richer at 1/4 throttle on, I don't see how I wouldn't also need to be richer at 1/8th. Still, I'm covering my bases. Cheap insurance for $12. As an aside, I ordered an NCY fuel filter off Amazon and it came to me from Scooterworks. That was a little surprising, not least because Amazon takes a chunk from marketplace sellers, so I was a little surprised to see them going that route. |
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Just to throw you a curve ball…
C tapers on a lot of Vespa builds… And I ended up using a BGM needle on my PWK 35 AS, with the 221 build. |
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chandlerman wrote: I agree that H is probably a winner for diameter, but I'll still throw a DGG diameter in the cart just so I can check it and be sure. When you say, "And adjust to get to on clip 3," do you mean calculate the length of L1, adjusted by (in my case) .9mm? The only option I have with a D taper is DCH, which is going to put me clear up on 1st or 2nd clip (39.95mm to 36.35mm, 3.6mm shorter L1)). If I look for D length options, that has me looking at a DEG or a DEJ. If G turned out to be a good diameter, that's fine. If a G diameter is too rich, though, then I'm back to 4th clip on the DGH. For taper, I've seen you say to find how far the motor will rev with no main. The target there is 3/4 throttle, correct? When I was finding the main, I could always "jump past" the stumbling portion of the throttle below the power curve by staying in the 1/2-3/4 throttle on the needle in a lower gear, getting the revs up, then upshifting. That was even the case with the 210 main. Right now, the transition from needle to main feels really good. I'll pull the main out and test for sure, but probably not until the weekend. In the meantime, I've gone ahead and ordered (so they'll get here by the weekend): - a DEG, which might or might not get me back on 3rd clip, plus confirm I'm rich enough on diameter; - an EEG and EEH* for the richer taper, so I'm covered for both diameters - Some needle shims, because I can't find mine ![]() * I doubt it will wind up being the EEH. If I need to be richer at 1/4 throttle on, I don't see how I wouldn't also need to be richer at 1/8th. Still, I'm covering my bases. Cheap insurance for $12. As an aside, I ordered an NCY fuel filter off Amazon and it came to me from Scooterworks. That was a little surprising, not least because Amazon takes a chunk from marketplace sellers, so I was a little surprised to see them going that route. That's a few needles coming, Will be plenty left for the next one. The taper is difficult. This often is the easiest, yet noisiest method. And most dangerous. Guessing just your thing. While on the stand, warmed up with no main jet. Hold at half throttle and it will rev very high. Continue to open slowly and see what point the max revs start to drop. At 3/4 is good but not so much after. Try all your needles to feel the differences. If it jumps into gear, make sure there's nothing expensive to hit. |
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Lucky
76 Sprint V, 63 GL, 62 VBB, 05 Stella, 66 Smallstate, 66 Lammy S3
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Lucky
![]() 76 Sprint V, 63 GL, 62 VBB, 05 Stella, 66 Smallstate, 66 Lammy S3
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Jack221 wrote: You got it with the L1. Rushed my last comment and missed a few words. Ideally jetting ends on clip 2 or 3 but that's not always possible on a PWK. As long as it's not clip 1 at the end, then good to go. Jack221 wrote: That's a few needles coming, Will be plenty left for the next one. The taper is difficult. This often is the easiest, yet noisiest method. And most dangerous. Guessing just your thing. ![]() Jack221 wrote: While on the stand, warmed up with no main jet. Hold at half throttle and it will rev very high. Continue to open slowly and see what point the max revs start to drop. At 3/4 is good but not so much after. Try all your needles to feel the differences. Noise-wise, it's lucky for me that my wife has to go back up to Chicago for work and is staying over and having a girl's weekend while she's there, so no one I care about to tell me to quit with the racket. Jack221 wrote: If it jumps into gear, make sure there's nothing expensive to hit. |
Jet Eye Master
PX221 MHR, PX200 O tuned, PX181 M1XL, PX125 O tuned and some motorbikes
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Yes, the tree incident. In my case it was the fridge in my garage.
It might take a few goes to get the taper right. Although with PWK it's not like there's a million choices. Almost every time when I'm sure it's spot on, it doesn't ride exactly perfect. Even when not quite right it's still going pretty good though. Certainly better than any motorcycle factory needle choice. This is the step that really makes a difference. When 3/4 accelerates really hard and opening to wot accelerates even harder still. |
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Nedminder
62 VBB1T Round Tail W/ leaner sidecar
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Nedminder
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Jack221 wrote: Yes, the tree incident. In my case it was the fridge in my garage. CM - looking forward to hearing this thing run. Lots of long 1/3 throttle runs on ROM. Tuning makes a huge difference. Also nice to have the power to lose the heard off the light - some of the Lamar's are running 3%… Gas to oil… |
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Lucky
76 Sprint V, 63 GL, 62 VBB, 05 Stella, 66 Smallstate, 66 Lammy S3
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Lucky
![]() 76 Sprint V, 63 GL, 62 VBB, 05 Stella, 66 Smallstate, 66 Lammy S3
Joined: UTC
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charlieman22 wrote: CM - looking forward to hearing this thing run. Lots of long 1/3 throttle runs on ROM. Tuning makes a huge difference. Also nice to have the power to lose the heard off the light - some of the Lamar's are running 3%… Gas to oil… I had it out for a bit yesterday running a couple errands and it keeps getting better with every iteration. Still has stumbles here and there, but they are more spots where the improvements haven't kept up than deficiencies. It's the tuning version of "the rising tide lifts most boats." |
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Lucky
76 Sprint V, 63 GL, 62 VBB, 05 Stella, 66 Smallstate, 66 Lammy S3
Joined: UTC
Posts: 10871 Location: Nashville 277 Days Since Last Explosion |
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Lucky
![]() 76 Sprint V, 63 GL, 62 VBB, 05 Stella, 66 Smallstate, 66 Lammy S3
Joined: UTC
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Needles didn't arrive, so no tuning progress this weekend. I may go clean up the workshop, though, since the weather is relatively nice.
Looking for BGM port timings for HMC_MT, I found another painfully prescient exchange from the VBB thread... sdjohn wrote: I request a grenaded crank in the next engine, the blown up clutches and water logged cylinders are so 2021. chandlerman wrote: Do you want the crank grenaded before or after it goes in the engine?
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Lucky
76 Sprint V, 63 GL, 62 VBB, 05 Stella, 66 Smallstate, 66 Lammy S3
Joined: UTC
Posts: 10871 Location: Nashville 277 Days Since Last Explosion |
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Lucky
![]() 76 Sprint V, 63 GL, 62 VBB, 05 Stella, 66 Smallstate, 66 Lammy S3
Joined: UTC
Posts: 10871 Location: Nashville 277 Days Since Last Explosion |
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The needles arrived, along with some really nice weather, which meant it was tuning time this evening after work.
Naturally, there's some video, but I need to adjust the clip and try it again. It's already better than it was, especially how it kicks out the power from 3/4 to the main. It's nuts for that now. Maybe I'll be able to get some riding footage tomorrow while the sun is up.
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