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Jet Eye Master
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Jet Eye Master
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UTC quote
I hope that was the before video and the after one is coming. Is still work in progress. Once the needle is better the 175 main jet will be too small. You have all jets up to 200?
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Lucky
76 Sprint V, 63 GL, 62 VBB, 05 Stella, 66 Smallstate, 79 P200E, 66 Lammy S3
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Very much a before video. 5/8 throttle to start losing RPM's is obviously too short.

I wasn't quite sure what I was going to be looking for when I began my testing. I need to check L1 on that needle, too, but as I interpret the results, if I'm too rich on the taper, it'll stall out *before* 3/4 throttle, but if I'm too lean, it won't stall out until after 3/4 throttle.

The video is of the E taper. I'll probably go back to the DGH and get video of the throttle test on it so I can be sure, but I believe it did better. I'm not sure if it was enough, but I failed to start the camera, so can't say for sure.

Assuming that my understanding is correct, I'll be back out annoying the neighbors again this evening, hopefully while it's still daylight so I can test ride it after I pick a needle.
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Lucky
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Time is getting short, but I'm still making progress.

I went back to a D taper and re-ran the no-main taper test. It did a lot better than with the E. Makes it almost to 3/4 throttle before the RPM's collapse.

I'm going to order a couple of C taper needles just to be sure (CEH & CEG) and suspect that the CEG or DEG will be the final winner, but am hedging my bets as long as I'm ordering.

In less happy news, I noticed after some test riding that I was leaking brake fluid down by the caliper. On closer inspection, the banjo loop was stripped where the brake line goes into it. So parts are now on order for that, but that'll still have me down until probably the weekend as a result.

And time is getting short. Only two more weekends until it'll be time to pull the motor and build the travel case. I think I'll be ready by then, but it's not finished 'til it's finished.

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Nedminder
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very cool vid.
for the uninitiated - can you 'splain me something?

To my ear - in the lower RPM's, it's rich.
then it really takes off in upper.

1. What is the ideal needle going to do differently at lower RPM?
2. Is 3/4 throttle the ideal for the needle to get you to - because that's a hand off point to the main?
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Lucky
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Yes, it sounds a little stumbly down at the 1/8-1/4 range. The idle also isn't all that well set right now, which isn't helping.

I need to confirm what's going on there. That's affected by the diameter, so I need to revisit that after I finish with the taper. I also need to confirm where L1 is relative to the slide opening. That's clip, which determines at what point the taper kicks in. And I'll also re-check the main.

That whole process will be faster once I'm not waiting a week for needles between iterations. Plus the whole "re-do the front brake lines thing."

1) The ideal needle may be a different diameter (final letter of the needle code, lower is richer, affect 1/8-1/4 throttle).

That's why I ordered a CEG and a CGH. Gives me options. That's best tested by finding the point about a millimeter before the taper kicks in and seeing which one performs best. It's also tied to L1, which is in turn set by clip position.

2) Yes, at 3/4 throttle, you transition from the needle to the main. Since I have no main in the carb when I do this, what it's telling me is how close to that 3/4 point the transition is trying to occur.

Compare it to the same test on a E (richer) taper last week, where it runs out at 5/8 throttle. Also, last week it barely got past 11k RPM's. This week, it almost made it to 12k.

You can see the difference modeling it in Kyajet. It's a small (<5%) difference in the mixture, but it changes mix as the carb transitions from the needle to the main more dramatically than I'd realized it would, as the video of last week's E taper vs. this week's D taper call out.
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Maybe a CGL… just saying…

Still hedging my bets it'll end up around there.

Oh when I mentioned BGM needle before, I meant B taper, G length and M diameter.

Not the scooter center brand… lol
⚠️ Last edited by 108 on UTC; edited 1 time
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Lucky
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108 wrote:
Maybe a CGL… just saying…
That can be next week's needle order Razz emoticon
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Nedminder
62 VBB1T Round Tail W/ leaner sidecar
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I have a chalk board.
You can explain this whole thing to me over a tequila up at the shop.


Yes - the shop is always in stock with tequila - for just this reason.
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Lucky
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Lucky
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With enough tequila, ANYTHING makes sense. And seems like a good idea at the time.
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Yup $30 on C taper.

Maybe $10 on B taper… lol

L, M for diameters.
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Lucky
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Lucky
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Nah, diameter is pretty close on the G. H was too lean when I tested that. I just didn't share because the video wasn't particularly interesting.
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What pilot was on there with the H diameter?

I'll sponsor your endeavour with the CGL needle!!
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Lucky
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60 pilot on all of these, up from the stock 55.
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Yeah, DM me your PayPal, I'll sponsor you the needle. :thumbs up:

If it's worse than your current settings, I'll buy you 2 bottles of tequila for your trip to see CM2!

(Oh I think the 60 idle is a bit too big… that's probably why the H diameter wouldn't work)
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Lucky
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I'll try the DGH and DGJ with a 58 and maybe even a 55.

If it seems like it's headed the right direction, I'll consider a suggestion to the Smallstate Needle Exchange.
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Try smaller, 45-48.

Makes sense, 144cc engine with a 45 pilot

Seems like there's quite a few folks that "sprechen Deutsch" with m1L 60 and the air striker…

It's not a unique setup…

But where would be the fun in going straight to the solution… and granted now you're a Jedi master at taking apart the carb now.

More than happy to support the needle exchange…!
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Jet Eye Master
PX221 MHR, O tuned PX200, PX125 and some motorbikes
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Jet Eye Master
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chandlerman wrote:
Time is getting short, but I'm still making progress.

I went back to a D taper and re-ran the no-main taper test. It did a lot better than with the E. Makes it almost to 3/4 throttle before the RPM's collapse.

I'm going to order a couple of C taper needles just to be sure (CEH & CEG) and suspect that the CEG or DEG will be the final winner, but am hedging my bets as long as I'm ordering.

In less happy news, I noticed after some test riding that I was leaking brake fluid down by the caliper. On closer inspection, the banjo loop was stripped where the brake line goes into it. So parts are now on order for that, but that'll still have me down until probably the weekend as a result.

And time is getting short. Only two more weekends until it'll be time to pull the motor and build the travel case. I think I'll be ready by then, but it's not finished 'til it's finished.

I would go straight to B taper. Seems like it's cutting out at 3/4, which is way too early. The cut out shouldn't be until 15/16.
Kyajet is very helpful but also only as good as it's programming. Seems like it considers the diameter out of the game at 3/16. Clip adjustment will fix the taper differences.
At the fine end of carb tuning, the machining tolerances of the needles becomes a factor. In general they are about as bad as main jets, some are correct, some are way off and most are close enough.
Adjust the pilot again at the end. It was ok on the last video.
Edit: accuracy of the grip marks really matters. Allow for the slack before zero.
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Lucky
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Lucky
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Jack221 wrote:
I would go straight to B taper. Seems like it's cutting out at 3/4, which is way too early. The cut out shouldn't be until 15/16.
B tapers are now on order, too. Hopefully they'll all arrive before the weekend. It's good to have a solid target now that I feel like I have a minimally adequate grasp of this particular technique
Jack221 wrote:
Kyajet is very helpful but also only as good as it's programming. Seems like it considers the diameter out of the game at 3/16. Clip adjustment will fix the taper differences.
Yup. Kyajet has become more of a trailing indicator to me, helping me to understand how a change was supposed to have worked. It now helps me "check my work," plus identify unintended consequences that I need to re-check back in the real world.
Jack221 wrote:
At the fine end of carb tuning, the machining tolerances of the needles becomes a factor. In general they are about as bad as main jets, some are correct, some are way off and most are close enough.
I've only bought genuine Keihin jets and needles for years. And I measure them to validate (to the quality of my own calipers) the needles. I haven't bought a set of bore gauges yet, but it's on the list.
Jack221 wrote:
Adjust the pilot again at the end. It was ok on the last video.
Edit: accuracy of the grip marks really matters. Allow for the slack before zero.
The marks were set accounting for slack and stretch of the cable. I was thinking yesterday I should re-check them. Not for any specific reason, just because it's been a while.

Thanks again for the guidance, Jack.
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Lucky
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Lucky
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While we had no power for over 24 hours yesterday into today, I still managed to get out to the workshop and test out B and C taper needles. I also recalibrated the throttle markings to the carb mouth. They were about 1/8 throttle off.

I have videos of both with no main on third clip that I'll upload eventually. The B taper revved to over 13k RPM's Wha? emoticon , but only on the stand. On the street, max RPM's is still about 11.5k.

Performance wise, it's gone to the next level. Second gear is now also hard to keep the front wheel down. I had a near-accident jumping on the throttle while coming out of a turn.

Jack, I now really get what you meant when you said that going from 3/4 to WOT should be another kick in the pants.

Temps-wise, I'm starting to distrust my CHT because it's reading so cool. I took it on the highway for a stretch and while traffic was only at 60 mph, temps were at like 250.

But the way it sounds when I wind it out is definitely Full of Win . I'll try to get out and capture some of that tomorrow.

In stopping news, I installed the new brake lines and bled them. That never gets any more fun. Then, after that was completed, I discovered that one of the crush washers on the banjo was leaking. So I got to tear the whole thing down again to fix that. Now, though, it's behaving, but I have a bit of twist in the brake line, so I need to loosen things up and bit to fix that, which means...more bleeding. #FML

But holy hell is this thing fun to ride. I'm starting to rethink my "I'll do the paint and body work after I pull the motor for ROM" plan. instead, I might just continue to lean into the rat aesthetic and work on some others projects for a while.

Whatever I do, this thing is hauling ass while I do it.
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B taper ftw??

Or too early to say?
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Jet Eye Master
PX221 MHR, O tuned PX200, PX125 and some motorbikes
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Jet Eye Master
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UTC quote
Sounds like it's getting better. Not surprised about the B taper. Will know more when the video is uploaded.
With the leaner taper, the main jet will need re doing from scratch. When we're sure the taper is good, make the main jet splutter and reduce like before. Could end up over 180 this time.
Gets hard to keep between crashing it or breaking it but that's where the fun is.
Holding at 250F is really good. There's a way to go on the setup yet. Every step gets better.

I've been planning a routine split of my 221 for months but can't bare to have it off the road. Just so much fun. Might do it next week. We'll see.
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Lucky
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Okay...video up. Assuming I have time, the weather should be cooperating, so I might get get all the way through finding the new main today.

Time is getting a little tight before ROM. I only have two more weekends after this, and will need to pull the motor to build the shipping case in that time, too. My wife is out of town both of those weekends for a conference and going to a concert with our daughter, though, so I'll have plenty of time at least.

For danger-mode, I made a right turn yesterday, jumped on the throttle a little too hard before I was fully through the turn and had my front wheel in the air headed into oncoming traffic for a second. I also got caught similarly off guard in second gear a couple times. But wow does it go to eleven.

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Jet Eye Master
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Jet Eye Master
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UTC quote
B is worth a try, better than C. Let's go with that. Are you positive the G diameter is good? While you have the yard to yourself give it another check. Something sounds really lean at the bottom end. Could just be the airscrew out too far. Either way not good for a long ride anywhere.

For the pilot; if the idle screw is well in, more than half way. And airscrew is only half a turn out. It should run terrible, not idle and splutter heavy, as the throttle is opened. Anything else is a too lean pilot jet.

Once the pilot is good and diameter rechecked. Main jet re-done from WOT splutter, down. Next is L1. All the rest has to be perfect first.
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Lucky
76 Sprint V, 63 GL, 62 VBB, 05 Stella, 66 Smallstate, 79 P200E, 66 Lammy S3
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The air screw very well might be too far out. Idle is not all it could be currently. I replaced the stock idle screw with one that has a larger knob and haven't found the sweet spot on it yet.

I'll re-check diameter, but I the only other B taper I have is a BGH.

I got out and re-checked the main starting at 185 this afternoon. Walked it down to 180, but I think I'm going to go back to 182.

Anyways...enough burying the lede...Things got a little wonky today because the Smallstate got hit by a truck. Wha? emoticon

Lemme explain...

I was down at a local place getting breakfast tacos & burritos this morning, as we are wont to do, had just gotten my food and was about to leave when a guy comes in and asks me if I parked my "little motorcycle" out front.

I said yes and he said, "I'm sorry, but I just ran it over with my truck." So we go outside and sure enough, the Smallstate is on its side looking a little the worse for wear. Fortunately(?) he mostly just pushed it along for a few feet, but the centerstand was bent up pretty good, the face of my speedo is scraped up, the CHT/Tach is broken, the right turn signal bracket is broken, and it has even more road rash all around, including on stuff like the turn signals, and the legshield and floorboards got bent up a bit. Luckily, the frame and fork seem to still be straight and the motor is fine*.

I hammered and pried out the worst of the damage, bent the centerstand back into something almost usable, and went over the motor, which fortunately was fine. A couple scrapes on the cases, but that might have happened just in the course of riding it.

I had parked probably ten feet in front of him, backed against the curb, so he would have plenty of room to pull out around me. But the forward visibility of big jacked up pickups is terrible, which he knew, but hadn't taken any consideration of when he came out and drove off, hitting my scoot.

All of which is annoying, not so much because it happened--if it'd been the GL, VBB, or Sprint, that'd have been a different story, but because he took no ownership of the fact that he drives a vehicle he can't see out of, but thinks it's my fault for parking in front of him that he hit me.

I know because I flat-out called him out on it. "What if I'd have been on my scoot when that happened?"

"Then I'd have seen you."

"What if I was kneeling down, attaching my tacos to my leshield rack? Or I'd been a child standing there?"

He had nothin'. But while he felt bad, he just couldn't accept that his poor forward visibility was the cause of the accident. He also got kind've pissy that I didn't want to give him some sort of Good Citizen Award for coming in and telling me he did it. He really didn't like it when I explained that if he hadn't, I'd have called 911 because he was on the restaurant's security cameras getting his food, paying with his credit card, and then hitting me, so the police would have come to his house or place of work and arrested his ass for fleeing the scene of an accident. Nashville is on a crackdown for leaving the scene lately because it's gotten really bad.

So, after all that, I didn't get as much done as I would have liked to, but at least I'm fine and the scoot is fine enough.


* While inspecting things, I discovered that the exhaust manifold was loose, so I fixed that while I was at it. Lotta work for replacing a gasket and tightening up a couple bolts.
Honestly this is the worst of it.  It's really hard to read, though.  Maybe I can buff it out.
Honestly this is the worst of it. It's really hard to read, though. Maybe I can buff it out.
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Dang brother! So he is paying some sort of compensation, isn't he. The big truck, can't see in front of me, it's your fault you parked there attitude person may never learn unless you hit them where it hurts - their paycheck....

I'm glad you're alright.

I once had a supervisor hide in front of my UPS truck, but I always - ALWAYS - checked all around the vehicle before getting in. So I pretended to get in the truck, then snuck over to the front and just stood there, with my arms crossed, until he realized I was there and he started chuckling. I gave him an ear full and told him he's glad I didn't run his ass over, and that shit isn't funny. Facepalm emoticon
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Lucky
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From Consumer Reports
Quote:
Full-sized pickup trucks—which are the most popular models on the market—can have a blind zone 11 feet longer than a car, and 7 feet longer than an SUV
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Nedminder
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Dehaysoos CM.
Just try to keep it in one piece until end of month?
Socal's gonna read this and wonder if loaning u his scoot was a good idea.
🙂.


Sorry for the bad luck.
I'm always weary of someone hitting my scoot pulling in or out of a parking space.
Have taken to parking on the sidewalk frequently to avoid.*
*(If u don't like my driving, stay off the sidewalk)…

Hope ur not to shaken up about it.
Really sucks.
Does he have insurance?
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Jet Eye Master
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If you didn't have bad luck you wouldn't have any. Hope he pays/paid/has a sore nose.
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Jack221 wrote:
If you didn't have bad luck you wouldn't have any. Hope he pays/paid/has a sore nose.
Given that I was riding a bike that's not currently registered or titled in my name with the (just) expired plate off the VBB, I decided to call it a cheap lesson in why I need to get down the the DMV this morning and sort out my various title and registration issues.

As to sore noses...I gave that up to the extent possible after the last time I saw the inside of a jail cell for it.
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UTC quote
charlieman22 wrote:
Socal's gonna read this and wonder if loaning u his scoot was a good idea.
🙂
SoCal is reading this.

Be brave, Little Red, be brave.
OP
@chandlerman avatar
UTC

Lucky
76 Sprint V, 63 GL, 62 VBB, 05 Stella, 66 Smallstate, 79 P200E, 66 Lammy S3
Joined: UTC
Posts: 9734
Location: Nashville

17 Days Since Last Explosion
 
Lucky
@chandlerman avatar
76 Sprint V, 63 GL, 62 VBB, 05 Stella, 66 Smallstate, 79 P200E, 66 Lammy S3
Joined: UTC
Posts: 9734
Location: Nashville

17 Days Since Last Explosion
UTC quote
SoCalGuy wrote:
SoCal is reading this.

Be brave, Little Red, be brave.
Little Red will be fine. Juuuuuust...fiiiiiiiine...

I rode the Smallstate down to the DMV and sorted out all my various title and registration issues, plus renewed the GL & VBB with Antique plates, which saves me almost $300/year, now and going forward. The smallie and Stella are now properly insured, too, so next time someone runs me over with his truck, I can make them exchange info with me and get my stuff sorted on their nickel.

And Jack, there's definitely something too lean from off idle to 1/4 throttle or so. Time to order a BGF? Facepalm emoticon
UTC

Jet Eye Master
PX221 MHR, O tuned PX200, PX125 and some motorbikes
Joined: UTC
Posts: 4531
Location: London UK
 
Jet Eye Master
PX221 MHR, O tuned PX200, PX125 and some motorbikes
Joined: UTC
Posts: 4531
Location: London UK
UTC quote
Before buying any needles check the clip. That seemed a little lean too. If you set the clip twice it will give more of a clue.

Adjust the airscrew and once the main jet is re-done on the B taper. On the stand hold it wide open. This rpm is the unloaded max. If holding 1/4 throttle it should not quite achieve the same rpm. Set the clip at 1/4 until the rpm is slightly under max when held. If the clip is set way too rich at first it is easier to be sure you're going the right direction. Do the same at 1/2 throttle resetting the clip for a little under max. What are the two clip settings?
@108 avatar
UTC

Ossessionato
V range 50s
Joined: UTC
Posts: 2392
 
Ossessionato
@108 avatar
V range 50s
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Posts: 2392
UTC quote
chandlerman wrote:
Anyways...enough burying the lede...Things got a little wonky today because the Smallstate got hit by a truck. Wha? emoticon

That sucks ass, glad it's not bad.

Imagine damage to the engine…
UTC

Ossessionato
Vespas 1964 GS160, 1965 SS180, 1977 V9A1T, 1983 PX150E
Joined: UTC
Posts: 2537
Location: Siam
 
Ossessionato
Vespas 1964 GS160, 1965 SS180, 1977 V9A1T, 1983 PX150E
Joined: UTC
Posts: 2537
Location: Siam
UTC quote
This kind of crap is so typical these days. No one wants to own up. If there were no cameras around, people would hit and run constantly. Remember the days when people used to leave notes on windshields with their contact details to deal with the damage they caused? And it is thought that the human race is evolving. Pff.
OP
@chandlerman avatar
UTC

Lucky
76 Sprint V, 63 GL, 62 VBB, 05 Stella, 66 Smallstate, 79 P200E, 66 Lammy S3
Joined: UTC
Posts: 9734
Location: Nashville

17 Days Since Last Explosion
 
Lucky
@chandlerman avatar
76 Sprint V, 63 GL, 62 VBB, 05 Stella, 66 Smallstate, 79 P200E, 66 Lammy S3
Joined: UTC
Posts: 9734
Location: Nashville

17 Days Since Last Explosion
UTC quote
Jack221 wrote:
Before buying any needles check the clip. That seemed a little lean too. If you set the clip twice it will give more of a clue.

Adjust the airscrew and once the main jet is re-done on the B taper. On the stand hold it wide open. This rpm is the unloaded max. If holding 1/4 throttle it should not quite achieve the same rpm. Set the clip at 1/4 until the rpm is slightly under max when held. If the clip is set way too rich at first it is easier to be sure you're going the right direction. Do the same at 1/2 throttle resetting the clip for a little under max. What are the two clip settings?
I tested with the needle on 3rd, 4th, and 5th clip. The max RPM's went up as I richened the needle, so I think I need to up my main and try again? I also need to re-mark the throttle with better contrast to show position.

Oh, and fix the damn flywheel shroud rubbing.

UTC

Jet Eye Master
PX221 MHR, O tuned PX200, PX125 and some motorbikes
Joined: UTC
Posts: 4531
Location: London UK
 
Jet Eye Master
PX221 MHR, O tuned PX200, PX125 and some motorbikes
Joined: UTC
Posts: 4531
Location: London UK
UTC quote
That shroud rubbing is annoying. It won't be doing the flywheel any good at that rpm. Move the job to the top of the list.

No point doing accurate L1 testing without a perfect pilot jet and perfect main jet. It does give you an idea that jetting is still a way off. However, if clip 5 didn't make 1/2 splutter, the next needles need L1 quite a bit shorter. On a PWK significant L1 change affects the taper and main jet. But all will need a recheck anyway.
@108 avatar
UTC

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V range 50s
Joined: UTC
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@108 avatar
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UTC quote
Sounds like clip 5 is too spluttery…

Have to try 1 and 2? Should end up 2 or 3 being the final clip position.
UTC

Ossessionato
Vespas 1964 GS160, 1965 SS180, 1977 V9A1T, 1983 PX150E
Joined: UTC
Posts: 2537
Location: Siam
 
Ossessionato
Vespas 1964 GS160, 1965 SS180, 1977 V9A1T, 1983 PX150E
Joined: UTC
Posts: 2537
Location: Siam
UTC quote
My daughter just said, "What's that sound?"
To me it sounds like a Skill saw getting ready to die.
UTC

Jet Eye Master
PX221 MHR, O tuned PX200, PX125 and some motorbikes
Joined: UTC
Posts: 4531
Location: London UK
 
Jet Eye Master
PX221 MHR, O tuned PX200, PX125 and some motorbikes
Joined: UTC
Posts: 4531
Location: London UK
UTC quote
108 wrote:
Sounds like clip 5 is too spluttery…

Have to try 1 and 2? Should end up 2 or 3 being the final clip position.
For me clip 5 spluttering, in these conditions, on this engine, would mean that 1/2 throttle (and under) would struggle to make 9000 rpm and sound bad. The idea is to know it's way too rich.
@108 avatar
UTC

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V range 50s
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Ossessionato
@108 avatar
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UTC quote
Main in there in the video?
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