Sat Apr 09, 2022 1:45 pm

Member
Mp3 400 hpe
Joined: 03 Sep 2014
Posts: 13
Location: Spain
 
Member
Mp3 400 hpe
Joined: 03 Sep 2014
Posts: 13
Location: Spain
Sat Apr 09, 2022 1:45 pm linkquote
I've been reading old posts about countersteering/leaning ur body/brake only b4 the turn/ and advices coming from 'experienced' riders like 'do that and u'll be fine', Guiding ppl into deadly mistakes

Gentlemen plz hear this: the ONLY way for a bike to change direction is COUNTERSTEERING. Thats pure PHYSICS.. I dont care if you leaned tour body for 50 years, or whatever u have been doing for the last 3-4 decades: ITS WRONG. The number of years doesnt make it right. Science does

You only lean ur body when u are excessively speeding, and the leaning angle of ur bike is at its maximum, so u put ur body further away to lean more (ie: like the moto gp guys).
Otherwise, on normal street riding, ur body should be upright (if not counter-leaning ur bike if ur avoiding an obstacle). Staying upright keeps the balance of the bike when IT is leaning (not you)

Second thing is the front brakes. For those 'experienced' ones, the front brake is the ONLY brake that stops the bike. And YES, u CAN, and u SHOULD use it while turning. If ur afraid of using ur front brakes on turns/curves, that means u have no idea how to use the brakes at all: go practice trail breaking: its a technique that teaches u to properly to ride a bike.

The rear brake is only used for balancing the bike in slow manouvres, and it is used as a 20% help in emergency braking. You cant use the rear brakes while doing turns, it can kill you. (Especially if u find urself needing to stop in the middle of the turn).
Slowing down in curves is only done with the FRONT brakes, if used progressively and correctly. All those who say that the front brake is dangerous on curves, they have absolute no idea about what they are talking about.

Gentlemen: taking courses and practicing is NOT for beginners. Rossi and Marquez have 3-4 teachers, eventhough they're gods. Practicing makes ur muscles do the correct reflex in emergency situations: If a child crosses in front if u, and u need to go left (and u have 0.1 seconds to act), u might steer to the left as a reflex, and kill the child or urself, (instead of countersteering)(Leaning ur body to avoid the child will need 50 meters and 5 seconds, which is too late)
Please watch this crash: (watch the slow-mo part and notice the steering that killed the guy)

COUNTERSTEERING should be ur ONLY instinct, ur FIRST REFLEX. It should be like breathing, something u do without thinking.

If u cant afford taking courses, u can watch hundreds of youtubers who teach u how to practice for free. U only need an empty space and 30min/week. It will save ur life one day. Motojitsu channel is a great example, Mcrider as well. They teach you how to practice swerving, emergency braking, trail braking, countersteering.. i.e all the basic stuff that save ur life.. and its free!!

Swerving video:
Countersteering: (BMW Gs1200 with one finger!)
Emergency braking: (front vs rear)
Trail breaking:
Ride safe! And plz PRACTICE!!!
Sun Apr 10, 2022 12:00 pm

Member
Piaggio MP3 300 HPE
Joined: 22 Aug 2020
Posts: 49
Location: Croydon
 
Member
Piaggio MP3 300 HPE
Joined: 22 Aug 2020
Posts: 49
Location: Croydon
Sun Apr 10, 2022 12:00 pm linkquote
I love Fast Eddie's videos!
Tue Apr 12, 2022 4:01 pm

Addicted
2006 GT200L "Lone Star"-Sold, 2006 Yamaha Majesty YP400(Sold), 2005 Genuine Stella 150 2T "Smoky"(Sold), 2007 Piaggio MP3 250 "Lean Machine".
Joined: 15 Jan 2019
Posts: 857
Location: Texas
 
Addicted
2006 GT200L "Lone Star"-Sold, 2006 Yamaha Majesty YP400(Sold), 2005 Genuine Stella 150 2T "Smoky"(Sold), 2007 Piaggio MP3 250 "Lean Machine".
Joined: 15 Jan 2019
Posts: 857
Location: Texas
Tue Apr 12, 2022 4:01 pm linkquote
I'm a strong proponent of countersteering, too, but I wonder if my MP3's third tire and wide stance affect the dynamics? I'll have to do some testing...
Tue Apr 12, 2022 4:26 pm

Moderaptor
The Hornet (GT200, aka Love Bug) and 'Dimples' - a GTS 300
Joined: 26 Aug 2007
Posts: 41052
Location: Pleasant Hill, CA
 
Moderaptor
The Hornet (GT200, aka Love Bug) and 'Dimples' - a GTS 300
Joined: 26 Aug 2007
Posts: 41052
Location: Pleasant Hill, CA
Tue Apr 12, 2022 4:26 pm linkquote
Back when I had my Fuoco in the UK - the only difference I found with the MP3 style was that you needed a bit more conscious counter-steering input at very low speeds than with just one wheel up front. More than 10 mph? No difference at all, just the reassurance that wet manhole covers were no longer a threat on roundabouts.
Wed Apr 13, 2022 12:33 am

Member
Mp3 400 hpe
Joined: 03 Sep 2014
Posts: 13
Location: Spain
 
Member
Mp3 400 hpe
Joined: 03 Sep 2014
Posts: 13
Location: Spain
Wed Apr 13, 2022 12:33 am linkquote
Countersteering on the mp3 is exactly the same as on 'normal' bikes, coz the mp3 leans. The only difference is that the front is heavier, so u need a little bit more pushing weight on the bar, or else it would be a slower response.
Infact, bcoz of the greater leaning angle that the mp3 has (40 degree vs 35 degree on 'normal' bikes), countersteering/leaning the bike becomes more fun and safe. (Many complain about the central-stand beeing too low, coz it is hitting while leaning)
I bet that you have been countersteering it without noticing it. I only has the bike since 2 weeks, im practicing on it on a curvy road, and focusing only on the countersteering and head movement. Thats the most important part, where u should focus on it untill it becomes instinct. I still have no confidance, and many times i get that 'OOOPS' feeling where i think i over leaned, where in reality im just not used to it, i guess the central stand on a left curve is the limit, and i havent reached that.
I strongly recommend that u also practice (at night) on a big roundabout, going around it many times (make sure u have enough speed to countersteer), this way u can practice how much to maintain the push on the hadlebar, this practice helped a lot especially for long curves that are U shaped.
In slow speeds its just normal steering, just like when ur parking. I also havnt got used to it coz it becomes heavier eapecially with a passenger. I stick my right foot out if im going right, just like in motocross
Our parking has that epoxy where even in a car, it feels like there is diesel beneath the tyres. The ASR is there in anycase, i know that the rear is quite stable.
On a manual bike, u have the clutch and u use the friction zone and the rear break to keep the engine engaged (thus balancing the bike in slow speeds). But on scooters im probabely missing a technique that im not aware of, im sticking to leg balancing for bow
Maybe i can replace the clutch friction zone with small throttle engagement on CVT, does anyone do that?
Wed Apr 13, 2022 10:17 am

Hooked
2020 Liberty 150, 2020 MP3-500
Joined: 06 Oct 2020
Posts: 417
Location: Reno
 
Hooked
2020 Liberty 150, 2020 MP3-500
Joined: 06 Oct 2020
Posts: 417
Location: Reno
Wed Apr 13, 2022 10:17 am linkquote
Slow speed maneuvering is not like a normal bike
You can steer it with the bars
It will do crazy tight u turns, with out sliding the rear tire around
If it feels heavy, it's because you are trying to ride it like a two wheeler
Wed Apr 13, 2022 2:07 pm

Member
Mp3 400 hpe
Joined: 03 Sep 2014
Posts: 13
Location: Spain
 
Member
Mp3 400 hpe
Joined: 03 Sep 2014
Posts: 13
Location: Spain
Wed Apr 13, 2022 2:07 pm linkquote
Garthhh i still need a lot of practice,
What i mean by the rear sliding is only in our parking where its painted cement (zero grip in addition to some oil drops (probabely from harleys )).
When u say tight u-turns, u steer the bike leaned, or u just steer it like a trike (upright)?
I mean does it lean in very low speeds? Cause it seems scary to me already!
(Sorry about my dumb questions, but its only been my second week on the bike, and the weather havent calmed down for me to ride properly)
Thu Apr 14, 2022 5:59 pm

Hooked
2020 Liberty 150, 2020 MP3-500
Joined: 06 Oct 2020
Posts: 417
Location: Reno
 
Hooked
2020 Liberty 150, 2020 MP3-500
Joined: 06 Oct 2020
Posts: 417
Location: Reno
Thu Apr 14, 2022 5:59 pm linkquote
The triangulation of the 2nd front wheel provides stability
Without the tilt lock locked, at low speed, you don't have to lean as much, you can point the wheels where you want to go...

Here's some general things

Two ways to corner at speed, lead with your shoulder, lead with your hip
You go where you look in either case
Leading with your hip is better in slippery condition as it keeps your weight over the bike & is generally less aggressive

One of the hardest things to learn is to not give the bars a deathgrip
Don't push & pull, just pull, which keeps you forward, helps keep your arms relaxed
Hard to react if you have arm pump
Fri Apr 15, 2022 9:13 am

Lurker
2022 MP-3 (on order)
Joined: 15 Dec 2021
Posts: 2
Location: Crestwood, KY
 
Lurker
2022 MP-3 (on order)
Joined: 15 Dec 2021
Posts: 2
Location: Crestwood, KY
Fri Apr 15, 2022 9:13 am linkquote
It's gyroscopic force that leans the bike when you counter steer. I flew Hueys in Nam and that 48 foot rotor turning at 320 RPM is like one hell of a motorcycle wheel. To go forward I push the cyclic stick forward but the action on the rotor head takes place 90 degrees to the right. The gyroscopic force rotates 90 degrees left and the rotor disc dips down. Play with a toy gyroscope and you can see how it works.
Fri Apr 15, 2022 10:26 am

Moderaptor
The Hornet (GT200, aka Love Bug) and 'Dimples' - a GTS 300
Joined: 26 Aug 2007
Posts: 41052
Location: Pleasant Hill, CA
 
Moderaptor
The Hornet (GT200, aka Love Bug) and 'Dimples' - a GTS 300
Joined: 26 Aug 2007
Posts: 41052
Location: Pleasant Hill, CA
Fri Apr 15, 2022 10:26 am linkquote
OldHueydriver wrote:
It's gyroscopic force that leans the bike when you counter steer. I flew Hueys in Nam and that 48 foot rotor turning at 320 RPM is like one hell of a motorcycle wheel. To go forward I push the cyclic stick forward but the action on the rotor head takes place 90 degrees to the right. The gyroscopic force rotates 90 degrees left and the rotor disc dips down. Play with a toy gyroscope and you can see how it works.
It's also gravity - which is the major force at play when going slowly *or at a stop*. Ever watched a cyclist at traffic lights when they don't put their feet down?
Sat Apr 16, 2022 5:20 am

Member
Mp3 400 hpe
Joined: 03 Sep 2014
Posts: 13
Location: Spain
 
Member
Mp3 400 hpe
Joined: 03 Sep 2014
Posts: 13
Location: Spain
Sat Apr 16, 2022 5:20 am linkquote
Thx Garthhh for ur feedback, i will practice that.
Concerning hip or body leaning i wont take that advice though, im sorry. Like i said earlier, countersteering is the correct way coz u will have the reflex to swerve or avoid obstacles.
By using the body u only get 20% of cornering, comparing to countersteering. So when that time comes, and ur avoiding an open door, u will be used to hip or body leaning, and u wont be able to avoid it.
Acutually when u hip or body lean in cornering, what is leaning the bike is its own gravity, for the fact that ur going slower. The body movement doesnt have much effect. As u increse speed, the bike gets straight up.
When ur decreasing speed, the bikes wants to lean
(And also many riders countersteer without knowing it)
Plz watch this video, the guy puts the bike on cruise (no decreasing speed) and demonstrates how the body has little effect on cornering. He's an instructor, he explains it better live on his bike
Sat Apr 16, 2022 12:33 pm

Hooked
2020 Liberty 150, 2020 MP3-500
Joined: 06 Oct 2020
Posts: 417
Location: Reno
 
Hooked
2020 Liberty 150, 2020 MP3-500
Joined: 06 Oct 2020
Posts: 417
Location: Reno
Sat Apr 16, 2022 12:33 pm linkquote
Except you use your arms to position your body, it's not possible to isolate one or the other,
Attempts to isolate is acrobatics not riding
You can ride no handed, but riding no bodied isn't as easy to simulate on two wheels
When you ride at speed you do both at the same time

On the MP3 when you lock the tilt while you are still moving, it feels wrong, cause you are riding no bodied, there is no counter steering, you just use the bars to point the front wheels where you want to go, if you overcorrect you end up on two wheels

In slippery conditions, no matter how many wheels, when the rear breaks loose, you should point the front wheels the direction you want to go, not overcorrect into the opposite ditch like your brain tells you to
You go where you look
Wed Apr 20, 2022 12:22 pm

Hooked
2019 MP3 500 Sport
Joined: 26 Sep 2012
Posts: 171
Location: California
 
Hooked
2019 MP3 500 Sport
Joined: 26 Sep 2012
Posts: 171
Location: California
Wed Apr 20, 2022 12:22 pm linkquote
I also think counter-steering is the only way to turn a bike, but unlike the OP, I think all riders do it without realizing it. If you realize the amount of agility it unleashes when you do it on purpose, you can never ride another way.

As to never using the rear brake in turns and only relying on the front... don't try that when MX-ing, you steer with the rear, either accelerating or breaking. You'll end up on the floor guaranteed if you try to control turns with the front... there's a time and a place for stuff

I think we all know most of the stopping power is in the front, but the rear can have a stabilizing effect. My MP3 has ABS and ASC anyhow, so I am pretty sure you could do petty stupid things and it would be quite forgiving. Not that it's be a good habit, of course.
Wed Apr 20, 2022 4:56 pm

Moderaptor
The Hornet (GT200, aka Love Bug) and 'Dimples' - a GTS 300
Joined: 26 Aug 2007
Posts: 41052
Location: Pleasant Hill, CA
 
Moderaptor
The Hornet (GT200, aka Love Bug) and 'Dimples' - a GTS 300
Joined: 26 Aug 2007
Posts: 41052
Location: Pleasant Hill, CA
Wed Apr 20, 2022 4:56 pm linkquote
PabloLie wrote:
I think all riders do it without realizing it.
Sorry, I'm aware of it, as you are, so not ALL riders do it without realising it. Just those who haven't worked it out yet.
Thu Apr 21, 2022 5:17 am

Molto Verboso
GTS 300ie Touring 2013 - Signora D'argento & GTS 300ie HPE 2022 - Regina Arancione.
Joined: 03 Jun 2018
Posts: 1571
Location: Lancaster, U.K.
 
Molto Verboso
GTS 300ie Touring 2013 - Signora D'argento & GTS 300ie HPE 2022 - Regina Arancione.
Joined: 03 Jun 2018
Posts: 1571
Location: Lancaster, U.K.
Thu Apr 21, 2022 5:17 am linkquote
jimc wrote:
Sorry, I'm aware of it, as you are, so not ALL riders do it without realising it. Just those who haven't worked it out yet.
It's a bit like changing gear, you do it instinctively and intuitively, without pre-thought.
Sat Apr 23, 2022 3:42 pm

Hooked
2019 MP3 500 Sport
Joined: 26 Sep 2012
Posts: 171
Location: California
 
Hooked
2019 MP3 500 Sport
Joined: 26 Sep 2012
Posts: 171
Location: California
Sat Apr 23, 2022 3:42 pm linkquote
jimc wrote:
Sorry, I'm aware of it, as you are, so not ALL riders do it without realising it. Just those who haven't worked it out yet.
They are not aware they *do* it, and they are not aware of the benefit of doing it in an amplified way to get much faster reactions out of the bike, but there is research there that shows that intuitively there is always a moment of counter-steering - in fact it's probably one of the things you internalize as you learn to stay on top of a bicycle as a kid. It is not only a tool when you turn - it's also a stabilizing tool. You could argue that without learning counter-steering you'd never stayed on top of your bicycle as a kid.

Clearly, with a heavier two wheeled vehicle it becomes a far more important tool to change direction faster, and it's saved my a&& when reacting to incompetent car drivers more than once. Using it with *awareness* is powerful, but probably more so on a sports motorcycle -especially on a track- than with scooters, imo. Also the inertia of the wheels on bigger motorcycles make counter-steering more vital. Haven't checked on a big cruiser though. Still helps a lot of course.

PS: There's an awesome video of MotoGP riders (Scott Redding was one) throwing an MP3 500 around on a track, and you can VERY clearly see VERY aggressive counter-steering to force the heavy MP3 into leaning over quickly on track...
Tue Apr 26, 2022 7:19 am

Ossessionato
1991 Vespa T5 Pole Position, 2008 Vespa S 125, 2013 Peugeot Metropolis RS
Joined: 06 May 2011
Posts: 3814
Location: Staffordshire England
 
Ossessionato
1991 Vespa T5 Pole Position, 2008 Vespa S 125, 2013 Peugeot Metropolis RS
Joined: 06 May 2011
Posts: 3814
Location: Staffordshire England
Tue Apr 26, 2022 7:19 am linkquote
happened upon this photo on one of Elon Musk's social media platforms..

this either proves that countersteer is actual steer, or this geezers going down like a sack of spuds!



Sun May 01, 2022 10:39 am

Hooked
50cc Beo, BigBeo 2003
Joined: 30 May 2015
Posts: 438
Location: Chelyabinsk, Russia
 
Hooked
50cc Beo, BigBeo 2003
Joined: 30 May 2015
Posts: 438
Location: Chelyabinsk, Russia
Sun May 01, 2022 10:39 am linkquote
Tell them "you-can't-steer-by-yer-ass"



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