Modern Vespa

Hey guys.

Mp3 500 HPE Advanced owner here...

I just installed j.costa in my stock almost new Piaggio and it runs great.

But somehow i wanna do something more... I dont need top speed (now its 157kph), if its 130 thats ok, i ride in the city mostly, i need accelerating.

The j.costa did help with accelerating but i would like more of it. What gramm bullets are best for max accetilation?

Do i need a new spring like Polini (blue spring) or keep stock?

Thanks guys!

Where did you get your J Costa variator?

Marty[/quote]

Interesting; I had no idea there were different Variator's for MP3s that could be installed.

https://www.jcosta.com/en/blog/scooter-and-motorcycle-news-1/post/how-does-the-speed-variator-of-your-scooter-work-transversal-speed-variator-vs-the-stock-one-4

Does anyone have long-term experience with these for reliability, fuel economy, over-all performance?

Is it a drop-in for any MP3 500IE series? Or does it only work with specific versions of the Mp3 500 such as standard vs HPE?

Thanks.

An JC vario for 500, will work on any 500. The engines are same-same. As long the vario is made for mp3 500 (gilera counts as mp3!) it will work.

And the performance is great, but there is still space for some fine-tunning i know zero about.

The bike runs smoother and has faster accelerating. I know few bikes they run it for 40-50k so durability is great.

I got mine from the dealer who sold me mine.

Im now after some sport-spring (polini) but i would like to know whats optimal from someone who has it allready fine-tunned, so i dont go buying parts and invest time for less power.

Its pricey (250€ give or take) but you get 90% of that power if you are on the budget; 16g in your stock vario and blue polini spring. Runs smoooooth AF. Smoother than j.c.

J.C is more like ON/OFF power, pure sport vario, prob the best or at least in top 3 you can get. You can cruise, but you feel your bike it wans full throttle.

RPMs go up to 7k and the engine loves it; just make sure the oil is hot, like always on any bike/car.

VMAX ob board comp. runs 158 easy.

I would buy it again and i would pay more if i have to.

Now i just have to fine tune it with some sport filter, spring, sport belt and so on...

the j costa pins wear very fast, that is the reason they are not widely used .

yo can get excellent performance in a OEM vari by changing the stock rollers to the dr pulley sliders and most folks like the 16 or 17 gram.

you can also get a bit more low end punch by adding a 1 mm fuzzy washer to the stock 2 mm in-between the vari halfs for a total of 3mm.

I concur with the unusual rapid wear on the Costa. Weights seem to be .ade from old chewing gum.

I also tried Malossi, but ultimately went back to stock.

Since I do a lot of highway riding, the best combo I have found is a mix of stock Piaggio 25 grams along with 4 21gram weight to get a overall 23gram. You do have to stagger the weights during install (blue, black, blue, black and so on)

Guys i allready have the costa.

Looking for info what more do i need to upgr. to get max out of it.

your kinda on the island by yourself with the j costa.

You've got the grocery getter/mini van of the bike world. Yet you want more? Then as the old sayin' goes "there is no replacement for displacement". In other words, anything other than a MP3 that has more pistons.

As for getting the max out of the Costa? Maybe stock up on a couple of extra sets of pins a.k.a. weights? And keep one set somewhere on the bike in case you get stuck somewhere unexpected.

And if you're gonna rock the Costa for the long haul, definitely keep a spare centre bush (the goofy one with all the holes) on hand. It is also a known high wear item.

I tried the Costa and just about every other vario (Polini, Malossi, etc.) and Dr. Pulley clutch but for my kind of riding (mainly highway speeds) stock with slightly lighter weights is the sweet spot. I tried the Malossi and Polini contraspring has as well, but stock seems about the best overall given the limited muscle of the motor and the heavy weight of the bike.

The Costa was the worst of the lot for my type of riding. My picks from best to worst are stock (with staggered weights), Malossi, Polini, Costa.



Last edited by sbaert on Fri, 13 May 2022 15:57:36 +0000; edited 4 times

LOL. Now that's funny right there.

JCosta does not like sustained WOT riding. They are not designed for that. Their history goes back to circuit racing, point, and squirt.

European riders may wish to also look at Yasuni. A better JCosta for larger bikes.



xavier.external(at)yasuni.com

Thanks!!!

Thats the answer i was looking for! Before 2017 500 HPE i had a "normal" 2017 500 with like you said lighter rolls (16g) and the blue polini spring. Super smooth! Super dinamic, great to ride.

Then i got the new 2021 HPE, when i rode it home i was disapointed. No power, not nearly as smoot as the old one... Ok, what now. Insted of 16g and spring, i was thinking about spending some more. More money, more power right?

Not really. JC did make a huge diff. But its not smooth 0-30. The old bike was smooth 0-150km/h.

So what would you recomend? Dr. Pulley 16g and the blue spring?

In need a jumpy bike from 0-100. My VMAX is now 157, but i dont need that. 130 is enough.

What would you recomend for best accelerating MP3 500?

Thanks again mate!

The bucking from standstill in the current gen MP3 500 is mainly caused by the black 25gram weights.

What you are seeking is a bit asking for the impossible. There is no perfect solution, only compromises.

These are big heavy girls (for a scooter) and yet you want her to be a sprinter, and as any big girl will tell you "These t!tt!es don't run" 🤣

Since you ride mostly in town, and want more sprightly performance I'd try a full set of 19 or 21 grams weights or stagger the 2 for 20gram overall.

Going below 19gram and you'll start sacrificing significantly

You'll have to experiment, but the Piaggio weights are very cheap. Once you are happy with vario weights, then you can try different rear contrasprings. FWIW, i tried different rear contraspring but went back to stock. Also tried Dr. Pulley, but not enough of a difference to recommend it

Oh, and return the J Costa and put the money on better things like the OSRAM LED headlight kit

I have installed jcosta on four bikes. beo500, tmax 500, majesty 400, silverwing 600.

I was previously hooked on sliders (15% lighter than stock rolls), with malossi white contra spring (10% heavier than stock)

I couldnt find good info anywhere about what the contra spring does. in my head I figured it was a heavier spring so it would stay in first gear longer and do it with less belt slip. I did back to back swaps contra spring only so I could learn.

the contra spring is like changing your final drive ratio. a heavier spring raises ratio. a lighter spring lowers ratio. lower ratio= more load= lower rpm.

you should try the malossi white spring. it will sacrifice top end speed for better take off and snappier mid range.

one thing confuses me on the jcosta not being smooth comment. that is what I like most about it. it acts like a harmonic balancer on the crank. all engines run smoother with it. remarked so in my experience. maybe you are getting belt vibration? all the bikes ran butter smooth with jcosta installed.

Bingo. A owner with multiple Costas on different bikes. This is something I have been searching for for many years

Question: What is the average life of the plastic pins/weights across the 4 models you have?

Sacrificing top speed? If thats, than i dont have a big prob. It has to be fast 0-100, 130 top speed is enough i guess.

Im sure my previous mp3 500 had 16g and blue polini spring (bought it like that, never saw it, but im sure it was like that due previous owner told me he can make it stock again and i said no) and that buke was smooth and fast.

Sure i should stick with 19g for good accelerating and decent top speed od 130?

Sacrificing top speed? If thats, than i dont have a big prob. It has to be fast 0-100, 130 top speed is enough i guess.

Im sure my previous mp3 500 had 16g and blue polini spring (bought it like that, never saw it, but im sure it was like that due previous owner told me he can make it stock again and i said no) and that buke was smooth and fast.

Sure i should stick with 19g for good accelerating and decent top speed od 130?

As I said previously, there is no perfect solution only compromises. These bikes are not designed to be quick off the line.

As far as sacrifices, you'll be sacrificng fuel economy and addtitional wear and tear on the motor and drivetrain among other things.

I know it will never be an Hayabusa, but i would like to get max out of the bike. Fuel, wear, tear and other i dont care that much.

So any tipp how to make it faster 0-100 i would appreciate very much.

Thanks

I dont have that data yet. so far only seen pins from the tmax after 5500 miles. they looked good like they would make 10k. the feedback on net is mostly from people not servicing the cvt when it needed it. and with older models of the jcosta.

the pro version has a drilled/anodized variator. diamond coated slide bearing, and other improvements. i am still believing lifespan is short compared to standard option varios. best bang for the buck is dr.pully sliders. especially for bike that does lots of miles. have seen sliders with 20k and no wear.

I drive for the pure sport of it. and I have too many scooters to put many miles on any one bike.

Shed weight (including the rider) wherever you can and turn it into a flying gas can. Not an easy task on a MP3. I am talking anything and everything non essential here, underseat bucket, top case, carrier, grab handles, mirrors, tupperware panels, remove the tilt lock entirely, maybe even remove one of the aluminum arms that tie the front wheels, even go as far as cut out non critical sections of the frame if need be.

2 quick 'n easy places to drop weight is exhaust such as Akrapovic and a lithium battery

Other than that, experiment with weights as mentioned previously and maybe a spring.

I like my mp3 with 80lbs removed. I also run 140/60 tire. bike drives VERY sporty.

Naah, not like that... I ment what rolls, what spring,... Parts...

16g and blue polini? Or white malossi?

Max power for the 500 Master engine is at 7250. So if your engine is pulling 7000 RPM during acceleration then that's about all you'll get.
Lighter weights won't necessarily make any difference.
You could put on a less restrictive exhaust but we don't have any RPM figures for that.
Fitting a stronger torque/contra spring to tighten up the transmission won't increase the power at 7000/7250

The Fuoco is a tad lighter than the MP3 but only about 17 kgs.

J Costa might be slightly larger in diameter than stock hence the max speed of 157.

You could check the variator boss and use some engineering blue to check the belt is as low as possible at idle ( fuzzy washer rationale) but J Costa will have designed that in from the beginning.

Be vigilant if changing belt manufacturer as some belts are wider and will sit higher in the variator at idle.

You could do some research and see if any of the major brands of 14 in rear tires have a smaller diameter. Which would lower your gearing a tad.

Already been discussed several times in this thread, so I am not going to repeat myself again.

As far as sport filters, sport belt, etc, they don't make any difference at all. There is zero sport in these bikes.

BTW, has this new MP3 been run in (broken in) properly yet and are you sure you don't have the engine mapping in ECO mode? If the bike is in ECO mode, the power will be off by about 30-35%

JCosta and Yasuni have quite a history of partnership, cooperation and competition between them. The partnership and cooperation part of the relationship ended some time ago. As soon as the JCosta patent expired, Yasuni came to market with this, which is actually an early JCosta design, that Yasuni collaborated on. The squared off rollers didn't work as well for JCosta as the round ones JCosta ended up using, which is why this variator really hasn't taken off. The JCosta weights were originally made by Dr Pulley, but now they are made in Italy and have Kevlar in their compound. The hole in the end is a wear mark, sort of like tires use. JCosta Variators are designed to be used with the stock clutch and springs, and on the Dyno, they do show an increase in HP and speed.
The CEO of JCosta is a fairly conservative rider. Here is a photo of her taking a left turn on some sort of moped.

What a complete load of twaddle but good try to try and diss Yasuni. (maybe unintentionally)

One of the founders of J Costa got screwed (reputtedly 900,000 Euros, if memory serves...) by his partners and had to start again. Autisa/Yasuni
The squared weights are the result and used mostly on larger bikes 400 and up. No reason why they won't perform on a 300.

Sorry no cigar

However this bit is correct Your picture is Montse, perhaps?

Yes, the JCosta patents did expire and that's when the Yasuni variator came to market. Yes, JCosta and Yasuni worked together when they tried square weights in the axial variator quite a while ago, and found they didn't last as long as the round ones, and no, one of the founders didn't screw the other out of 900K euros. There is a story there, but that's not it.
Yasuni makes incredible 2 stroke racing pipes, probably some of the best in the world, but they didn't have an axial variator until the JCosta patents expired.

The Yasuni Pro Race Variator "with the unique "High Tech" treatment, recognized by the European Space Agency" came out around 2018. It looks a lot like the Polini variator, except for the "High Tech" treatment, that looks like black paint. And in 2021 "YASUNI... invented, created and patented a real automatic transmission system, not just a variator. With the Axial variator, the rider is the true master of the drive, the throttle controls are transferred directly to the wheel, which allows the best performance for the engine."

Wasn't JCosta giving you wholesale prices before they had a distributor in your part of the world? You seemed to like them a lot when you were able to resell their products. I hear they are selling a lot of variators for the ADV 150 in Thailand these days.

I have a question, as I see that here are people that not only install the J.Costa but sell it, so have good information.

I contact J.Costa to ask some questions about the ideal weight for my use, if it is better to use masses of 21.5 or 21 grams instead of the 22g that comes by default, about the famous belt rub after some changes, etc, but I received a totally unexpected response: "We are sorry to have to inform you that at the moment we do not have the variator for your motorcycle, since for the Piaggio 500 we only have it for the Master engine and not for the HPE"

Is possible that the people in J.Costa don't understand my questions and think I'm asking about the 530? But It says clearly 500 in the answer or exist a difference in the variator parts between oldest 500 and the HPE?

Thanks in advance for the insight.

All Piaggio 4xxcc-5xxcc engines are Master engines. Does not matter if they are the older ie or the newer hpe type.

Sounds like Johnny Costa is either unaware, uncaring, or totally non committed to providing technical support for their own products.

How would they know that? They don't know your weight, whether you live in hilly terrain, your riding style, your expectation.

Did you tell them your RPM during acceleration, et al..

0.5g is roughly equivalent to 500 rpm during acceleration. Max torque for your bike is @ 5500 rpm so if it doesn't get there during initial acceleration then go with a lighter weight. If the bike reaches higher than 5500 during initial acceleration then J Costa has decided that and your 22g weghts are OK.

Why not buy a Malossi and then send them an email. (sic)
Better yet buy a Yasuni axial variator and you might get a better response. (pun intended)

You can always buy a set of 21.5g weghts and see what happens. If not what you want drill them out to 21

Last edited by waspmike on Fri, 07 Apr 2023 03:32:41 +0000; edited 6 times

there aren't gears on a CVT. What the contra spring does is work against the force of the rollers. You get your best acceleration when the bike is in the powerband and the belt is in the best position to move the bike. The rollers want to push up and force the variator to close, and the contra spring makes it wait, and keeps the belt lower on the variator longer.
The analogy I use, which makes sense to me and possibly nobody else, is that if you've ever ridden a ten speed bicycle, having a very weak contra spring is like putting it in 10th gear when the bike starts moving. It's harder to pedal, and the engine has trouble winding up into the power band. So you want to accelerate in the middle range. A heavier contra spring will keep the belt lower on the variator, longer, while the bike gets up to maximum speed without falling below, or going above the power band. too heavy, and the belt never gets out all the way in the end. For most street riders on a large scooter, the lighter spring by Malossi or Polini is usually ideal. If you are blasting out of a corner in a race, you want the belt lower in front, and to stay there longer, because that's how you get immediate acceleration, and you're not as concerned about overall top speed, because you want the engine to stay wound up and you've got more corners coming up. That's what the heavy contra springs do best.

That I seriously doubt given the circumstances. A few years ago an Autisa/Yasuni test bike had 20,000kms on original weights with no appreciable wear. I believe the square weight patent is Autisa/Yanusi but ... Well that's what I was told. Owned 49% got dismissed as an employee by the 51% who then formed a seperate sales and marketing company IScooter which they owned 100%. I maybe wrong about the amount but I beleive I am correct about the situation.

But them Guttenberg invented the printing press and was out maneuvred by his partners. Sh1t happens. I was the distributor but they knew it was never my day job. More like a paying hobby, after helping a guy on a 600 Silverwing with a sidecar get up hills. Eventually I also gave up my other business and went back to being a "consultant" as it paid better and was tax free. But I did get 12 years of a relaxed lifestyle out of it. Now I just take money from the ATM.

Here the market has changed. I think guys with ADV150 who want more more performance will buy a 350. Also from a performance perspective, there are now a load of used 250/300 Forzas so they buy those and not PCX.

I am still interested in CVT as a technology.

I see no reason why you can't buy a box of Vespa 300 Yasuni units unless you already have.

A question from a while ago but it is a hobby of mine.
You need to visualize a bicycle Deraileur. Bigger diameter on the rear equals a lower gear.

The contra spring acts against the force generated by the spinning weights. Its job is to keep the rear pulley halves together or the rear pulley diameter larger. As the variator weights spin they generate force which opposes this so the stronger the contra spring the higher the RPM needed to overcome it.

The torque from the engine pulling on the belt has to be added to the spinning weights force so when you roll off the throttle a heavier contra spring will squeeze and a lower gear will result. If going up hill and you have enough grunt the tension caused by the engine will cause the rear pulley haves rotate and the cam action will assit the contra spring. (kickdown)

End result a heavier contra spring tightens up the transmission response. If you wish you can liken it to "D" or "S" for a DCG (dual clutch) gearbox. In D the box will select the highest gear for the situation (stock or weaker contra spring) in S the DSG with select the lowest gear for the same sitiuation ( stronger contra spring)

NB. J Costa as a performance variator has already factored this in with their weight choice. So is designed to be used with a stock spring.

I did not see the point of copying the content of all my email to J.Costa in the thread, the text was only referential, but yes, I sent JC all the pertinent information.

What is important, and the answer does not help at all, is the comment that they do not have the product for HPE motors, and I do not understand the reason for this, since for example the Malossi variator is the same part number for any MP3 500.

Interesting here, Yasuni on his website does not have MP3 500 listings higher than the year 2017-2018 either.

Returning to my original question, there are notable differences at the variator level (beyond the fact that the part numbers in Piaggio are different and that many times it is just a sales reason) between the engines up to 2017-2018 and the one from 2020-2021-2022 (HPE) that can make a J.Costa or a Yasuni don't work well? It makes me captious and I wouldn't want to spend that kind of money without being sure

The Piaggio Variator for the HPE is identical to the one for the previous 500cc scooter and the 400cc scooter EXCEPT the roller weights are heavier, hence the new part number. I think there was a misunderstanding, because on their site, JCosta mentions the 2020 model year Master engine.

Hi Mr, this helps a lot! Thank you!

The J.Costa site only give more confusions, in the attached image is a big advertise that it is only for master engines, but can't find any comment about years.

I never understand well the reason that Piaggio use heavier rollers after 2018 (a big change from 19 to 25) if using the same base , maybe someone have a inside about?


J.Costa web Site Variator IT625PRO

For years, Honda has used heavier rollers than were optimum for performance. If you watch the tach, while accelerating, there is an almost linear progression between the speed of the motor and the speed of the bike. With a performance variator, or lighter weights, the engine will rev up to where it needs to be, and hold there while the bike accelerates.
Piaggio appears to have copied this approach with the HPE, likely as a way to make the engine last longer.

Piaggio started using the 25gram black rollers with the introduction of the ABS equipped 3rd gen MP3 in 2014.