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chandlerman wrote:
Electrics are easy (for me, at least) Razz emoticon

If you have challenges, hit me up.
CM another electrical question…

I'm looking at the vape… and I'm looking at the wiring diagram below…

And I grabbed a 12v battery to simulate the brake switch, and unfortunately it switches off the light when you press the pedal… so it's reversed.

A quick google search says it's the switch variation open vs closed type of switch.

But this was the original switch to begin with… which worked with the previous Malossi spaghetti harness.

I think I'll power everything using the regulator… but the brake switch puzzles me (earthing or not earthing the brake switch didn't make a difference, assuming the earth is the black wire…)
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spray some ether down the carb to see if it fires
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sdjohn wrote:
spray some ether down the carb to see if it fires
Yeah fighting on 2 fronts… starting and electrical…

Have a gut feeling out the fuel and resetting the timing marks will help out…

The fuel smells of varnish rather than fuel at the moment…
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Yeah, the way that the beloved Bleh emoticon 6v-"balanced" AC brake light worked was that it was shorted to ground normally, and when you hit the brake, that broke the short, at which point the power would then flow through the brake light. So you have to convert the switch from a normally-closed (flows current in its default state) to a normally-open.

Once you do that, you need to run a new wire from the stator to the switch, because the old one is also run to ground. Then bond the new wire to the regulator's output.

Does that make sense?

(That's one reason that the "12V conversion harness" is a thing Razz emoticon)
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chandlerman wrote:
Yeah, the way that the beloved Bleh emoticon 6v-"balanced" AC brake light worked was that it was shorted to ground normally, and when you hit the brake, that broke the short, at which point the power would then flow through the brake light. So you have to convert the switch from a normally-closed (flows current in its default state) to a normally-open.

Once you do that, you need to run a new wire from the stator to the switch, because the old one is also run to ground. Then bond the new wire to the regulator's output.

Does that make sense?

(That's one reason that the "12V conversion harness" is a thing Razz emoticon)
Kinda makes sense… I think I know what you mean…

Shorted to ground and the "on" breaks the ground… sounds very low powered, 1970's tech…

Urgh… sounds like I'll be doing some rewiring on the existing harness…

Besides the power from regulator to switch, any other points in the harness need looking at/changing?
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chandlerman wrote:
(That's one reason that the "12V conversion harness" is a thing Razz emoticon)
Quick question, does a 6v AC flasher work on a 12v setup? With the vape?

Does it make a difference?
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108 wrote:
Quick question, does a 6v AC flasher work on a 12v setup? With the vape?

Does it make a difference?
That's a negative, Ghostrider. You'll need to get a new 12V DC(right?) (LED?) flasher unit, too.
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chandlerman wrote:
That's a negative, Ghostrider. You'll need to get a new 12V DC(right?) (LED?) flasher unit, too.
it's time to buzz the tower…? (With a smallie…??)

Throw those Topgun quotes my way anytime Iceman!

I'm thinking of keeping it all AC this round with normal halogen bulbs… so the flasher will be AC…

Don't want to be adding another rectifier… there's no room!!
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108 wrote:
it's time to buzz the tower…? (With a smallie…??)

Throw those Topgun quotes my way anytime Iceman!

I'm thinking of keeping it all AC this round with normal halogen bulbs… so the flasher will be AC…

Don't want to be adding another rectifier… there's no room!!
One of the really cool things about the Vape is that the stator, coil, and regulator/rectifier are all interchangeable, so you can swap from fixed to variable timing or AC to DC just by changing out the relevant part if you change your mind later.

Regardless, you're going to need to change your bulbs and horn from 6V to 12V, then fix the brake light (and horn, IIRC) circuits from normally-closed to normally open.

These sort of hiccups are why I prefer to just replace the harness with a 12V conversion harness. Basically, I pull back to the dropship and nuke the site from orbit. It's the only way to be sure.

The brake circuit we've already covered. The horn, I want to say that's where you can just cut the diagonal link on the back of the headset switch and that will fix it. Someone else will chime in and correct me if I'm wrong on that, I'm pretty sure.

And you can be my wingman any time.
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Questions for smallie pros..

I was wondering if you know about smallie gear selectors…

I see ones with 2 arms and ones with 4 arms…

What's the difference? Why does it exist?

My engine is a 150907, so should I be using a 2 arm selector? Can I swap or upgrade?
scootermarc69 wrote:
Being that the conversion bearing requires some special attention to fit I'd say the large taper 20/20 crank is just as well for most builds.
SaFiS wrote:
20/20 is more than enough. I followed this route on our Special and a NU204 on the fly side is a must, instead the usual bearing…
markosmarkos wrote:
Saké and senbei may go better with your smallie. Nice find.
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chandlerman wrote:
One of the really cool things about the Vape is that the stator, coil, and regulator/rectifier are all interchangeable, so you can swap from fixed to variable timing or AC to DC just by changing out the relevant part if you change your mind later.

Regardless, you're going to need to change your bulbs and horn from 6V to 12V, then fix the brake light (and horn, IIRC) circuits from normally-closed to normally open.

These sort of hiccups are why I prefer to just replace the harness with a 12V conversion harness. Basically, I pull back to the dropship and nuke the site from orbit. It's the only way to be sure.

And you can be my wingman any time.
Urgh, more horn woes… the buzzer does nothing… no one can hear it past the exhaust noise… lol

The bulbs were all changed with the Malossi vespower kit (which is terrible…)

But the ac flasher is still 6v, it kinda works… but sorta keeps permanently on at higher revs… doesn't flash

Bullshit, you can be mine…
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108 wrote:
Questions for smallie pros..

I was wondering if you know about smallie gear selectors…

I see ones with 2 arms and ones with 4 arms…

What's the difference? Why does it exist?

My engine is a 150907, so should I be using a 2 arm selector? Can I swap or upgrade?
Are you referring to the 2 and 4 arm cruciform? Yours is a 4 arm 4 speed. It is the later, stronger one. 2 arm is for some of the earliest v90 3 speeds.

Yours is a 4 arm 4 speed cruciform;
https://modernvespa.com/forum/post2557531#2557531
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markosmarkos wrote:
Are you referring to the 2 and 4 arm cruciform? Yours is a 4 arm 4 speed. It is the later, stronger one. 2 arm is for some of the earliest v90 3 speeds.

Yours is a 4 arm 4 speed cruciform;
https://modernvespa.com/forum/post2557531#2557531
Yeah sorry, not sure what the actual name for it is… I see gear selector etc… it's a selector and cruciform in 1 right?

Yeah mines a 4 speed, but I just found out from the garage that's worked on it, they installed a gearbox from a 125 smallframe (et3??)

Still a 4-arm 51mm cruciform? I see a few different sizes… 50mm, 51mm, 50.?mm….
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Have a look here:
https://vespasmallframeforum.proboards.com/thread/20943/round-square-gear-selector

There are two typed of gearboxes requiring their own selectors. Some places refer to them as round and square type selector. Don't trust the year though, just take a look amd measure to see which one you have.

https://www.lambretta-teile.de/Shift-spider-4-speed-round-from-76-PIAGGIO-Vespa-PV-V50-PK

https://www.lambretta-teile.de/Shift-spider-4-speed-square-76-PIAGGIO-Vespa-PV-V50
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FINYoshi wrote:
Have a look here:
https://vespasmallframeforum.proboards.com/thread/20943/round-square-gear-selector

There are two typed of gearboxes requiring their own selectors. Some places refer to them as round and square type selector. Don't trust the year though, just take a look amd measure to see which one you have.

https://www.lambretta-teile.de/Shift-spider-4-speed-round-from-76-PIAGGIO-Vespa-PV-V50-PK

https://www.lambretta-teile.de/Shift-spider-4-speed-square-76-PIAGGIO-Vespa-PV-V50
Thanks for the links!

The images seem broken, I can't see them. Any other references?

Mind exploded when seeing round vS square selectors… lol I think I see the difference. The little notch at the top right?

What's the functional difference between the square and round?
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This is what you are looking at. Here is a main shaft from a -68 Primavera engine with square type selector. All gears align just fine when looking at the wear pattern where gears touch.

1st
External inline image provided by member with no explanatory text

N
External inline image provided by member with no explanatory text

2nd
External inline image provided by member with no explanatory text

3rd
External inline image provided by member with no explanatory text

4th
External inline image provided by member with no explanatory text

The same shaft with wrong type round selector:

1st - yeah, this could work
External inline image provided by member with no explanatory text

N - Kinda close
External inline image provided by member with no explanatory text

2nd - Iffy at best
External inline image provided by member with no explanatory text

3rd - Nope
External inline image provided by member with no explanatory text

4th - Definite nope
External inline image provided by member with no explanatory text
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FINYoshi wrote:
This is what you are looking at. Here is a main shaft from a -68 Primavera engine with square type selector. All gears align just fine when looking at the wear pattern where gears touch.

Thanks for the detailed photos!!!

Makes more sense now…

but also throws up some questions…!

So the shaft and the selector need to work together? So which shaft does the round selector work with? Post-primavera shafts?

How can I tell which shaft I have?

And how do you tell between round and square? Both look the same still
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Here is the difference in selectors in detail
External inline image provided by member with no explanatory text

But where is the difference between the models?

Is it in the main shaft, gears or possibly in both of them? I have no idea. I also have this oddball shaft in my collection which is still puzzling me. Pictured here on top.
External inline image provided by member with no explanatory text

Neutral is cutting it close with round type selector
External inline image provided by member with no explanatory text

... and also with square type selector
External inline image provided by member with no explanatory text

4th gear with round type selector is not even close
External inline image provided by member with no explanatory text

... and still bit off with square type because selector "bottoms" out
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FINYoshi wrote:
Here is the difference in selectors in detail
I see it now with the round and square type!!

That is weird with the oddball shaft…

So strange with the shafts… I'm wondering if mine is setup up properly by the previous garage…

I'm looking into clutch grab, wonder if it's related?

So good to know what the differences are!
⚠️ Last edited by 108 on UTC; edited 1 time
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I doubt the clutch drag is related. Smallies with multi-plate clutches or one big clutch spring are kinda notorious for drag. The intermediate discs have to be in perfect condition for clutch to work properly.

I don't know what gears you have but here are detailed images of known good -68 transmission gears from both sides for your reference.

1st
External inline image provided by member with no explanatory text External inline image provided by member with no explanatory text

2nd
External inline image provided by member with no explanatory text External inline image provided by member with no explanatory text

3rd
External inline image provided by member with no explanatory text External inline image provided by member with no explanatory text

4th
External inline image provided by member with no explanatory text External inline image provided by member with no explanatory text

Quoting my posts with images embedded can make for quote-monsters. You should edit away only the bits you need to keep the thread neat
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FINYoshi wrote:
I doubt the clutch drag is related. Smallies with multi-plate clutches or one big clutch spring are kinda notorious for drag. The intermediate discs have to be in perfect condition for clutch to work properly.

I don't know what gears you have but here are detailed images of known good -68 transmission gears from both sides for your reference.
Yeah got to trigger happy with the submit button.

Edited out the photos!

Actually not sure what gears I have now! I was under the impression it was stock with a smaller 4th gear…

I should have taken some photos!

The gears seemed to be in decent condition, just comparing it to what you would see on a largeframe.

Any solutions for the clutch drag??

I'm looking at that and gear shift cable adjustment too… that's why I'm double guessing the gearbox…

Looking at several things at the same time!
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What clutch cover is installed?

There are at least three flavors
1. Short arm with brass plunger - Primavera original
2. Long arm with brass plunger - PK ?
3. Geared plunger - PK XL2
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FINYoshi wrote:
What clutch cover is installed?

There are at least three flavors
1. Short arm with brass plunger - Primavera original
2. Long arm with brass plunger - PK ?
3. Geared plunger - PK XL2
Feels like a long arm with brass plunger
This is the cover… long arm?
This is the cover… long arm?
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Yep, that is a long arm one. It's the same one I have in Birdie and works a treat.

Which clutch you are running?
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Found it. Crimaz basket and Egig clutch.

Should be good parts and new intermediate plates too along the clutch. What is the distance between plunger and clutch center when cover is installed? Stick some blu-tack there, mount and remove clutch cover.
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FINYoshi wrote:
Found it. Crimaz basket and Egig clutch.

Should be good parts and new intermediate plates too along the clutch. What is the distance between plunger and clutch center when cover is installed? Stick some blu-tack there, mount and remove clutch cover.
Urgh… no idea…

What are the options after I find out the distance?

Need to take off the rear wheel and brake shoes to check right?
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108 wrote:
Urgh… no idea…

Need to take off the rear wheel and brake shoes to check right?
Yup. If you feel like living dangerously, You could cut out the edge of the brake backing plate to allow the two longer clutch cover bolts out with the plate still in place, but you'd still need to remove the rear hub, which is all the work.

I miiiiight have just evaluated this scenario in the past few days. might...
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Here are some options if there is too +1mm of distance between plunger and clutch center. In order from most painful to less painful.

1. Split the cases and add a washer under the xmas tree shaft
2. Space out the center insert of the clutch
3. Mod the lever pushing out the brass plunger
4. Make additional cable mount on the arm closer to the axle
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FINYoshi wrote:
Here are some options if there is too +1mm of distance between plunger and clutch center. In order from most painful to less painful.

1. Split the cases and add a washer under the xmas tree shaft
2. Space out the center insert of the clutch
3. Mod the lever pushing out the brass plunger
4. Make additional cable mount on the arm closer to the axle
Any tips to do 3 and 4?

4 i can kind of imagine, but for 3, is it mod the inside lever (the one that touches the plunger?), or the cable arm?

I didnt check how much wear was on the brass plunger but the face was in pretty good condition. i think its fairly new.
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Yep. Weld on some material on the nose and shape to fit.
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So finally an update!

But it's kinda come all in one go.

No air leaks with the engine.

Well kinda…

And ended up problem solving the non start with the help of the forum guys.
Holds pressure, some air being pushed through the thick paper gasket. Some needle movement over 10mins
Holds pressure, some air being pushed through the thick paper gasket. Some needle movement over 10mins
Being prepared before engine install.

Exhaust is looking pretty crazy…
Being prepared before engine install. Exhaust is looking pretty crazy…
Engine in…
Engine in…
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First start!!

Didn't get the kick filmed in Chandler style…

https://youtube.com/shorts/z4xuJ3j_pB0

But the gear cables and clutch were a bitch…

Even after that, I surrendered and brought the Crimaz clutch cover.

Thank goodness for pointers from Yoshi and Chandler is going through similar situation.

But the cover actually doesn't fit the older style smallframes.

Had to bust out the dremel and knock down a few areas it was fouling on the brake plate
Areas in green needed to be ground down
Areas in green needed to be ground down
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If a part fits with a bit of grinding, you can say it fits Razz emoticon

Did you take pictures of where it fouled and what amount had to be burred off?
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FINYoshi wrote:
If a part fits with a bit of grinding, you can say it fits Razz emoticon

Did you take pictures of where it fouled and what amount had to be burred off?
Unfortunately I didn't take a photo before I buttoned up the brake plate and rear wheel…

Keep forgetting to record stuff.

But it's like 0.25mm deep recesses, if that.

Just eager to get it up and running
@chandlerman avatar
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Lucky
76 Sprint V, 63 GL, 62 VBB, 05 Stella, 66 Smallstate, 66 Lammy S3
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Lucky
@chandlerman avatar
76 Sprint V, 63 GL, 62 VBB, 05 Stella, 66 Smallstate, 66 Lammy S3
Joined: UTC
Posts: 10536
Location: Nashville

188 Days Since Last Explosion
UTC quote
FINYoshi wrote:
If a part fits with a bit of grinding, you can say it fits Razz emoticon
"Some assembly required"
OP
@108 avatar
UTC

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V range 50s
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UTC quote
chandlerman wrote:
"Some assembly required"
A little surprised by how much massaging is needed.

Maybe it's the newer go-fast parts which don't quite fit? Or the inability to cater for all models?
@finyoshi avatar
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Parmakit Primavera -74, Polini Primavera -68, VR-One 228 150 Touring -59, VMC 177 Bajaj Chetak 125 -95
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@finyoshi avatar
Parmakit Primavera -74, Polini Primavera -68, VR-One 228 150 Touring -59, VMC 177 Bajaj Chetak 125 -95
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UTC quote
Just think about how many variations even Piaggio has on the smallie engine parts and you have the answer
OP
@108 avatar
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So this is the existing clutch cable holder with my previous "number 2" (long brass pusher) clutch cover.

I'm using this with the crimaz cover and seems to foul a little, but doesn't seem to affect the performance of the cables and lever
Forum member supplied image with no explanatory text
@swiss1939 avatar
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P208, Stella VMC Stelvio 187, Stella 150, VNX1T, V9A1T, V9B1T, 02 Sportster XLH1208
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@swiss1939 avatar
P208, Stella VMC Stelvio 187, Stella 150, VNX1T, V9A1T, V9B1T, 02 Sportster XLH1208
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UTC quote
chandlerman wrote:
"Some assembly required"
"Plug and Play"
OP
@108 avatar
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Attached the crimaz anti dive and Malossi RS3 shock.

The shock isn't quite straight anymore. I wonder if making an adaptor to shift the mounting hole backwards 20mm would help out?
Forum member supplied image with no explanatory text
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