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Ossessionato
79 P200E (Ruby), 62 Allstate (B-62)
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Ossessionato
@qascooter avatar
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UTC quote
My experience with the pinasco 177 2 Port is it runs hot. I'm running a 24/24 and was really surprised how high of a main jet I had to go before it would splitter WOT I'm 3rd. (It's a three speed).

After a couple of soft seizes at 60+mph, I decided to install a CHT gauge. Best decision I could've made.

Now I can run all day long at WOT and the temp has only once went up to 302F. Mostly it stays around 285F. This is along the coast, so humid and cool.

Here is a record of my jetting. I finally got smart and started keeping records on my phone...
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@charlieman22 avatar
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Nedminder
62 VBB1T Round Tail W/ leaner sidecar
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Nedminder
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UTC quote
Scott - that's awesome info/deets.
Do you recall what size you drilled your float bowl passage out to?

My Polini iron was a hard seize at 311°.
SIP CHT recorded it seizing there twice.
@qascooter avatar
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Ossessionato
79 P200E (Ruby), 62 Allstate (B-62)
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Location: Florence, OR
 
Ossessionato
@qascooter avatar
79 P200E (Ruby), 62 Allstate (B-62)
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UTC quote
2.3mm
UTC

Addicted
PK50XL, PK100S, ET3, Matchless G80S, Honda CBR400RR, Ducati ST4S
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UTC quote
Is the seize connected to the noise that disappeared 5 mins beforehand? Sort of like Chandlers rogue washer.
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Lucky
76 Sprint V, 63 GL, 62 VBB, 05 Stella, 66 Smallstate, 79 P200E, 66 Lammy S3
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Lucky
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UTC quote
Matchlessman wrote:
Is the seize connected to the noise that disappeared 5 mins beforehand? Sort of like Chandlers rogue washer.
Given that the kickstart is stuck, it certainly could be.

Only time and an 11mm socket will tell for sure.
OP
@grumpnut avatar
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Hooked
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UTC quote
Well… I didn't expect that.
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@charlieman22 avatar
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Nedminder
62 VBB1T Round Tail W/ leaner sidecar
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Nedminder
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UTC quote
Gracious.
Neither did we.
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UTC quote
No fuel in the oil. Piston looks good to me.
Everything else looks OK. Stand works awesomely.
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@chandlerman avatar
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Lucky
76 Sprint V, 63 GL, 62 VBB, 05 Stella, 66 Smallstate, 79 P200E, 66 Lammy S3
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Lucky
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UTC quote
Grumpnut wrote:
Well… I didn't expect that.
I can't speak for everyone here, but I generally prefer my bearings to be a little more ballsy than that.
OP
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Hooked
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UTC quote
Any suggestions for the best way to remove in situ?
@chandlerman avatar
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Lucky
76 Sprint V, 63 GL, 62 VBB, 05 Stella, 66 Smallstate, 79 P200E, 66 Lammy S3
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Lucky
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UTC quote
Grumpnut wrote:
Any suggestions for the best way to remove in situ?
Ideally, a bearing extractor, followed by a gear puller. Anything that doesn't transfer the pulling force past the shaft will be fine.
@greasy125 avatar
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Sergeant at Arms
Weird 80's Vespas & Cool Vintage Lambrettas
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Sergeant at Arms
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UTC quote
Grumpnut wrote:
Any suggestions for the best way to remove in situ?
as in leave the crank in the cases?

no. no. no, no, no, no.

remove crank, do both bearings. both seals. you're this far in, it'd be false economy not to.

also, if you don't know the provenance of the crank... I'd be throwing a hairy eyeball at that too.
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UTC quote
New crank and both bearings went in on the rebuild.
OP
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Hooked
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UTC quote
Well might as well listen to Greasy. I think I have everything here anyway.
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bodgemaster
63 GL, 76 Super (x2), 74 Primavera (x2), 79 P200, 06 Fly 150
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bodgemaster
@socalguy avatar
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UTC quote
So it was lean after all … by a few ball bearings!

Where did they end up?

Piston looks great. It wasn't your jetting.
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Sergeant at Arms
Weird 80's Vespas & Cool Vintage Lambrettas
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UTC quote
Grumpnut wrote:
Well might as well listen to Greasy. I think I have everything here anyway.
remember, it's not repair; it's an opportunity to upgrade!

all kidding aside, it sounds like your crank is okay to go another round. I'd just knock bearings on, slip some seals in and party.
OP
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Hooked
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UTC quote
All the bearings are in the race. Just friendlier with each other.

Speaking of upgrades. While it's out what do I need to change from the early small bushing thin clutch to the later type besides the cover spacer and a clutch?

Edit: Seriously!?! Everything but a fly side seal.
@orwell84 avatar
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Ossessionato
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UTC quote
That is unexpected. My question would be how/why that would happen. Bearings and crank being new…and the noise you were getting after rebuild. I listened to your video and it sounded like piston slap. But it's hard to tell from a video sometimes.
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UTC quote
The remains of the bearing cage was scraping away the metal on the seal. Defective bearings happen.
@sdjohn avatar
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Johnny Two Tone
'15 GTS300, '86 PX125EFL, '66 VBB, '01 ET4
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Johnny Two Tone
@sdjohn avatar
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UTC quote
so where did the missing balls go?????
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Hooked
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UTC quote
They are all there. The cage snapped and all the balls are close or touching each other. Really jammed together. It's a keeper
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OP
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Hooked
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UTC quote
So got things buttoned up and it started on the third kick. Left the choke too long and flooded it. Went to restart and it spins so easily, like there is no compression. Won't start. Jiminy Crickets, this engine is cursed.

Rings and piston look good. Guess it's really time to build a pressure tester.

So am I right in thinking if I rolled a crank or flyside seal that this would contribute to my current situation?

Bought this in Aug. 2019. I'd really like to ride it, not constantly be chasing this bullshit.
@socalguy avatar
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bodgemaster
63 GL, 76 Super (x2), 74 Primavera (x2), 79 P200, 06 Fly 150
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bodgemaster
@socalguy avatar
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UTC quote
Don't assume the worst. Sounds like maybe the clutch is too tight. Try loosening the adjuster.
OP
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UTC quote
Thanks SoCal. I need some hope today.
@charlieman22 avatar
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Nedminder
62 VBB1T Round Tail W/ leaner sidecar
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Nedminder
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UTC quote
Check you spark plug is properly torqued.
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Lucky
76 Sprint V, 63 GL, 62 VBB, 05 Stella, 66 Smallstate, 79 P200E, 66 Lammy S3
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Lucky
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UTC quote
No compression == flywheel spins without resistance.

Over tight clutch == no resistance, but flywheel doesn't soon.

I'm Team Clutch on this one.
OP
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Hooked
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UTC quote
So I've disconnected the clutch cable, no change.
I can spin the flywheel like dialing a rotary phone. Get hardly any pressure at the spark plug hole.

Flywheel spins with the kick start. Going to pull the clutch cover next as I did change clutches during this build.

I had the head off, piston looks fine. Pulled exhaust to peek at the rings. Weird
@chandlerman avatar
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Lucky
76 Sprint V, 63 GL, 62 VBB, 05 Stella, 66 Smallstate, 79 P200E, 66 Lammy S3
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Lucky
@chandlerman avatar
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UTC quote
Grumpnut wrote:
So I've disconnected the clutch cable, no change.
I can spin the flywheel like dialing a rotary phone. Get hardly any pressure at the spark plug hole.

Flywheel spins with the kick start. Going to pull the clutch cover next as I did change clutches during this build.

I had the head off, piston looks fine. Pulled exhaust to peek at the rings. Weird
If the cylinder walls aren't scored, then something is jacked up with the rings. Only way to know for sure is to pull the cylinder.

Post up some pictures. They help a lot.
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Hooked
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UTC quote
Will do
OP
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Hooked
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UTC quote
Cylinder looks fine to me. Rings were tight in the grooves and did not protrude from grooves at all. Since the cylinder kit came with the parts I now call a scooter I don't know their history other than it all looked new at the time. So new rings on the way.
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Addicted
'64 VBBs, '74 BMW R75/6 airhead, '74 Bultaco Alpina 250, Lambrettas + projects
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Addicted
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'64 VBBs, '74 BMW R75/6 airhead, '74 Bultaco Alpina 250, Lambrettas + projects
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UTC quote
Grumpnut wrote:
Cylinder looks fine to me. Rings were tight in the grooves and did not protrude from grooves at all. Since the cylinder kit came with the parts I now call a scooter I don't know their history other than it all looked new at the time. So new rings on the way.
It might be a belt and suspenders kind of thinking, but since you're replacing the rings you could hone the cylinder also. I've done this a few times when reusing okay looking original cylinders on a rebuild -- when you want cross hatching on the cyl walls so the rings seat properly. I can't see the cyl wall markings too clearly in the pics.
@chandlerman avatar
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Lucky
76 Sprint V, 63 GL, 62 VBB, 05 Stella, 66 Smallstate, 79 P200E, 66 Lammy S3
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Lucky
@chandlerman avatar
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UTC quote
Do those ports need chamfering? They look awfully sharp in that picture.

Past that...I don't see anything obvious to point me in a particular direction.
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Ossessionato
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UTC quote
So stuck rings. How does the piston look? Doesn't even look like it seized.
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bodgemaster
63 GL, 76 Super (x2), 74 Primavera (x2), 79 P200, 06 Fly 150
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bodgemaster
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UTC quote
This has to be one of the weirdest cases of engine gremlins yet.

First the cage of a bearing lets loose. How often does that happen?

Then rings just get "stuck" for no apparent reason?

Maybe sprinkle some holy water on it next time before you fire it up.
@chandlerman avatar
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Lucky
76 Sprint V, 63 GL, 62 VBB, 05 Stella, 66 Smallstate, 79 P200E, 66 Lammy S3
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44 Days Since Last Explosion
 
Lucky
@chandlerman avatar
76 Sprint V, 63 GL, 62 VBB, 05 Stella, 66 Smallstate, 79 P200E, 66 Lammy S3
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44 Days Since Last Explosion
UTC quote
I could see a tiny piece of bearing cage shrapnel getting stuck in a ring.

Past that, ghosts.
@socalguy avatar
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bodgemaster
63 GL, 76 Super (x2), 74 Primavera (x2), 79 P200, 06 Fly 150
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bodgemaster
@socalguy avatar
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UTC quote
Yeah maybe. He said both rings were tight in the grooves. What are the odds of that? If a piece of shrapnel got in there, you'd think you'd at least see some damage.
@orwell84 avatar
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Ossessionato
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UTC quote
When the rings broke on the Polini kit, the cylinder was fine, but the broken rings got stuck in the distorted lands. When my Stella crank gave out, the cylinder showed seize marks. Maybe a crank/bearing seize can also result in piston damage.

Definitely strange. I think that aftermarket parts don't always play nicely with the old team. With high performance builds, it can push the limits of the design. But in milder builds maybe more related to small figment issues.

Or ghosts. I have chased many.
@chandlerman avatar
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Lucky
76 Sprint V, 63 GL, 62 VBB, 05 Stella, 66 Smallstate, 79 P200E, 66 Lammy S3
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44 Days Since Last Explosion
 
Lucky
@chandlerman avatar
76 Sprint V, 63 GL, 62 VBB, 05 Stella, 66 Smallstate, 79 P200E, 66 Lammy S3
Joined: UTC
Posts: 9833
Location: Nashville

44 Days Since Last Explosion
UTC quote
SoCalGuy wrote:
Yeah maybe. He said both rings were tight in the grooves. What are the odds of that? If a piece of shrapnel got in there, you'd think you'd at least see some damage.
I agree, but don't really have a better theory unless the rings were always right at the edge of too tight in the lands. So the mystery of what caused them to go from "not too tight" to "too tight" remains.

Grumpnut, can you share a picture or two of the piston? Any visible marking on it? Close up of the ring lands if you can get them.
OP
@grumpnut avatar
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Hooked
'58 VBA
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Hooked
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UTC quote
Pulled the piston this morning. Tiny bits of crap in with the rings which are tight in the grooves to begin with. New piston from SM on the way.
Forum member supplied image with no explanatory text
Forum member supplied image with no explanatory text
Forum member supplied image with no explanatory text
@orwell84 avatar
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Ossessionato
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Location: northern New York
 
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@orwell84 avatar
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UTC quote
The top of that piston looks like the lunar surface. Looks like the lands got beat up a little. Maybe debris from the bearing got in there. Either way, rings sticking in the grooves would give you little or no compression. A strange set of failures to be sure, but not your fault if that makes you feel any better.
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