Sat Sep 03, 2022 11:35 am

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2016 PX 150 (Pinasco Vespone RX 190(On the mend))
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Sat Sep 03, 2022 11:35 am linkquote
My plug colour is not that bad. I was told it was a little rich which I can live with. I have no flat spots. Idle is rich but I may fit the 55/160 and try that again with the 130 main jet. The bike still lurches from time to time when coming off a WOT run in 4th. I have no idea what is causing this, but I can live with it.

It's not perfect but it may never be. When the time comes to change kit, I will opt for something not as tuneable. Maybe the BGM 187 Pro which is just bolt on.

It's my first Vespa and I wish I had gotten one sooner. I really like it.

With the 60, 58 and 55/160, the bike starts after two kicks from cold. I think the richer idle jets are just too rich. The bike lurches with the 68/160 fitted so I don't think being lean is causing this issue. I would like to lower the squish from 1.4mm to 1.1mm but that will have to wait.

I am off out for a biggish ride in the morning. Can't wait.
Sat Sep 03, 2022 2:48 pm

Jet Eye Master
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Jet Eye Master
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Sat Sep 03, 2022 2:48 pm linkquote
The 60/160 has to be rich enough. AC120/BE4/132 is plausible as correct. With a race cylinder the lower throttle has to stay slightly rich and the main jet has to be not rich and closer to optimal.
Sun Sep 04, 2022 11:36 am

Hooked
2016 PX 150 (Pinasco Vespone RX 190(On the mend))
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Sun Sep 04, 2022 11:36 am linkquote
The 60/160 and 120/BE4/132 seems to be good all round, if a bit rich at idle. WOT in 4th on flat road gave CHT of 155. It was dropping by a degree or so but had to lift off for a roundabout. Surging still happens about a second or two after WOT to no throttle. A quick blip of the throttle sorts it out.

Had a good 50 mile ride today. No issues. Starts two kicks from cold and half a kick when warm. All good.
Sun Sep 04, 2022 5:51 pm

Molto Verboso
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Sun Sep 04, 2022 5:51 pm linkquote
roody76 wrote:
The 60/160 and 120/BE4/132 seems to be good all round, if a bit rich at idle. WOT in 4th on flat road gave CHT of 155. It was dropping by a degree or so but had to lift off for a roundabout. Surging still happens about a second or two after WOT to no throttle. A quick blip of the throttle sorts it out.

Had a good 50 mile ride today. No issues. Starts two kicks from cold and half a kick when warm. All good.
Awesome, Roody!

Three kicks cold here. Like timework.

Quick tip:
Don't go from WOT to no throttle. Blip it a bit on the way down to clear the main circuit.
Sun Sep 04, 2022 9:38 pm

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2016 PX 150 (Pinasco Vespone RX 190(On the mend))
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Sun Sep 04, 2022 9:38 pm linkquote
Ray8 wrote:
Awesome, Roody!

Three kicks cold here. Like timework.

Quick tip:
Don't go from WOT to no throttle. Blip it a bit on the way down to clear the main circuit.
Agree. After a WOT run I usually pull the clutch and blip the throttle a few times. This stops any surging. Not sure why but it does. Maybe masking an issue but it works for now. I don't WOT very often.
Sun Sep 04, 2022 11:44 pm

Jet Eye Master
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Sun Sep 04, 2022 11:44 pm linkquote
How many rpm in 4th at 155C? Sounds like it's still slightly rich. Some of the surging will be because the inlet duration and transfer ports are not matched to the kit. With the richness the crankcase will run a bit wet and take a few blips to clear.
Remind me what the gearing is.
Sun Sep 04, 2022 11:51 pm

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Sun Sep 04, 2022 11:51 pm linkquote
Jack221 wrote:
How many rpm in 4th at 155C? Sounds like it's still slightly rich. Some of the surging will be because the inlet duration and transfer ports are not matched to the kit. With the richness the crankcase will run a bit wet and take a few blips to clear.
Remind me what the gearing is.
Its about 7400 in 4th. Not sure of the gearing. I know it's a 21 tooth clutch. I presume standard gearing.
Mon Sep 05, 2022 12:33 am

Jet Eye Master
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Jet Eye Master
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Mon Sep 05, 2022 12:33 am linkquote
21 tooth on a EFL stock box. Thought it would be higher.
When trying different main jets now, just look at this rpm in 4th on the same stretch of road each time. The fastest one that holds temperature is correct.
Mon Sep 05, 2022 12:35 am

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2016 PX 150 (Pinasco Vespone RX 190(On the mend))
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Mon Sep 05, 2022 12:35 am linkquote
Jack221 wrote:
21 tooth on a EFL stock box. Thought it would be higher.
When trying different main jets now, just look at this rpm in 4th on the same stretch of road each time. The fastest one that holds temperature is correct.
I shall do this tomorrow and report back. What gearing would you recommend and how do I change this?

Thanks.
Mon Sep 12, 2022 10:00 am

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Mon Sep 12, 2022 10:00 am linkquote
Good evening. I have deduced that the 132 main is the best jet for my setup. It's ever so slightly rich but does not affect anything that seriously. It still splutters at max revs and when applying slight throttle when already moving.

In 4th gear on a flat section of road, the engine seems to max out at 7500 - 7700 revs and still sounds good. Max temp at this point, after the temp has settled is around 150 degrees C. Always gets warmer when coasting in 4th with temps getting up to about 170 degrees at partial throttle.

I have put another 400 miles on it over the weekend with no issues at all. Still starts from cold with 2-3 kicks and 1 kick when warm.

Thanks.

Mark.
Mon Sep 19, 2022 5:48 am

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Mon Sep 19, 2022 5:48 am linkquote
Hello again. So the bike is running well apart from two minor things. The surging after periods of wot and this one... When in 4th gear, say doing around 50 to 60 mph, the engine heats up quite a bit. I am probably around 1/3 to 2/3 throttle. The engine temp got to 176 degrees C. As soon as I WOT the temps come down to around 150 to 155 depending on incline.

I have just done a WOT run for 4 miles on a variable incline / decline dual carriageway. Max engine revs was 7500 with a max speed of 72 mph. Temps hovered between 149 and 156.

Is the temp of 176 safe when using partial throttle in 4th? It does not seem to have a negative effect on the engine. I am just curious. The surging does not happen as soon as I close the throttle. Normally starts to happen a second or two later.

Thanks.
Tue Sep 20, 2022 12:55 am

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Tue Sep 20, 2022 12:55 am linkquote
Your cooling at WOT is logical as fuel is the coolant . You're getting too much air prior to the 4th WOT surely.
Tue Sep 20, 2022 12:59 am

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2016 PX 150 (Pinasco Vespone RX 190(On the mend))
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Tue Sep 20, 2022 12:59 am linkquote
ferriswolf wrote:
Your cooling at WOT is logical as fuel is the coolant . You're getting too much air prior to the 4th WOT surely.
When I don't want to travel at WOT in 4th, and the temp starts to rise, I blip WOT a few times and it brings down the temp. Not a massive issue as I can control it. I just wanted to know why it heats up a bit. I have no Air leaks as the leak down test is good. Maybe I need a smaller air corrector. I am running a 120 at the moment. Thanks.
Tue Sep 20, 2022 1:51 am

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Tue Sep 20, 2022 1:51 am linkquote
Not implying you have air leak but as main jet at wot takes over it's clearly hotter before this stage with AC / mixer combo . Have you tried the ac140 be4 and a 125 jet as base. That will work fine on my dr177 albeit bit ric but a 140 be5 124 is spot on now for me with a 50/120 pilot. It's all very slightly in the rich side but results in nice brown plug and good top speed and general running . I run on the safe side,it's capable of getting a few mph more top end dropping my main but heading into paler spark plug territory. Many of the advice for jetting 170 kits on here often falls with the ac140 be5 and some large MJ . Can't imagine your 190 kit being radically different

Last edited by ferriswolf on Tue Sep 20, 2022 1:59 am; edited 2 times in total
Tue Sep 20, 2022 1:52 am

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Tue Sep 20, 2022 1:52 am linkquote
ferriswolf wrote:
Not implying you have air leak but as main jet at wot takes over it's clearly hotter before this stage with AC / mixer combo .
Agree.
Tue Sep 20, 2022 2:00 am

Ossessionato
2007 Stella 225
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Tue Sep 20, 2022 2:00 am linkquote
roody76 wrote:
When I don't want to travel at WOT in 4th, and the temp starts to rise, I blip WOT a few times and it brings down the temp. Not a massive issue as I can control it. I just wanted to know why it heats up a bit. I have no Air leaks as the leak down test is good. Maybe I need a smaller air corrector. I am running a 120 at the moment. Thanks.
To much air doesn't necessarily imply a leak. Your description is, leaner or more air than you need at part throttle and colder to nominal at WOT. Mid range jetting a bit lean? Is there an atomizer richer in that area? Another option would be to look at bottom of slide in carburetor, if it has a notch or cutout in it, putting in a slide in that is flat will richer up part throttle.
Tue Sep 20, 2022 2:06 am

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Tue Sep 20, 2022 2:06 am linkquote
Christopher_55934 wrote:
To much air doesn't necessarily imply a leak. Your description is, leaner or more air than you need at part throttle and colder to nominal at WOT. Mid range jetting a bit lean? Is there an atomizer richer in that area? Another option would be to look at bottom of slide in carburetor, if it has a notch or cutout in it, putting in a slide in that is flat will richer up part throttle.
The slide has a notch. At work so can't identify the slide.
Tue Sep 20, 2022 2:34 am

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Tue Sep 20, 2022 2:34 am linkquote
He's on a be4 I think which is the richest mixer. Are you sure that your mj is correct as you have an ac120 and is it maybe the case your mid range temp is normal and you are drowning the engine at wot hence it cooling dramatically , eg very rich wot. You are judging temperature change from mid which in fact might be the normal range for your rig ???
Tue Sep 20, 2022 2:37 am

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Tue Sep 20, 2022 2:37 am linkquote
ferriswolf wrote:
He's on a be4 I think which is the richest mixer. Are you sure that your mj is correct as you have an ac120 and is it maybe the case your mid range temp is normal and you are drowning the engine at wot hence it cooling dramatically , eg very rich wot. You are judging temperature change from mid which in fact might be the normal range for your rig ???
I am on 120/BE4/132. I think the main is slightly rich but nothing way over the top. I need to know what is the max safe temp my engine can run. Some say 150 C, other say that 200 c is safe.
Tue Sep 20, 2022 3:36 am

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Tue Sep 20, 2022 3:36 am linkquote
roody76 wrote:
I am on 120/BE4/132. I think the main is slightly rich but nothing way over the top. I need to know what is the max safe temp my engine can run. Some say 150 C, other say that 200 c is safe.
Have you headed to pinasco website? Find out the temperature tolerances for your cylinder kit?
Tue Sep 20, 2022 3:42 am

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Tue Sep 20, 2022 3:42 am linkquote
ferriswolf wrote:
Have you headed to pinasco website? Find out the temperature tolerances for your cylinder kit?
I cannot find any information. I have emailed them for some info.
Tue Sep 20, 2022 9:34 am

Jet Eye Master
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Tue Sep 20, 2022 9:34 am linkquote
What slide in the carb now?
Tue Sep 20, 2022 9:36 am

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Tue Sep 20, 2022 9:36 am linkquote
Jack221 wrote:
What slide in the carb now?
Not sure. Standard one that came with the BGM Fast Flow 24/24. Has a groove in the bottom of it.
Tue Sep 20, 2022 10:05 am

Jet Eye Master
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Tue Sep 20, 2022 10:05 am linkquote
Might need a sip slide
https://www.sip-scootershop.com/en/product/throttle-slide-sip-42_84920420
With this slide it will need less main jet too.
Tue Sep 20, 2022 10:07 am

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Tue Sep 20, 2022 10:07 am linkquote
Jack221 wrote:
Might need a sip slide
https://www.sip-scootershop.com/en/product/throttle-slide-sip-42_84920420
With this slide it will need less main jet too.
I will get one on order. It says it helps the lean mid-range. It appears that is exactly what I have. Thanks again.

£33 delivered. Fuck sake.
Tue Sep 20, 2022 11:29 am

Molto Verboso
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Tue Sep 20, 2022 11:29 am linkquote
roody76 wrote:
I will get one on order. It says it helps the lean mid-range. It appears that is exactly what I have. Thanks again.

£33 delivered. Fuck sake.
Can't think of a way offhand, but if there were a safe way to block the intake on the top of the carb, that feeds air to the slide cutaway, you would essentially have a flat side.

With a filter I taped over the hole on the bottom that feeds that intake.
Tue Sep 20, 2022 11:46 am

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Tue Sep 20, 2022 11:46 am linkquote
Ray8 wrote:
Can't think of a way offhand, but if there were a safe way to block the intake on the top of the carb, that feeds air to the slide cutaway, you would essentially have a flat side.

With a filter I taped over the hole on the bottom that feeds that intake.
Hello. I did not realise the slide was fed via another source than the venturi. I will have to take a look now when I am home next. T

Thanks.
Tue Sep 20, 2022 3:58 pm

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Tue Sep 20, 2022 3:58 pm linkquote
The cutaway on the slide you have pulls air through here, from around 1/4 to 3/4 throttle.



Tue Sep 20, 2022 8:20 pm

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Tue Sep 20, 2022 8:20 pm linkquote
Ray8 wrote:
The cutaway on the slide you have pulls air through here, from around 1/4 to 3/4 throttle.
Well you learn something new every day. Thanks for that. I suppose that could be blocked off.
Tue Sep 20, 2022 10:43 pm

Jet Eye Master
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Tue Sep 20, 2022 10:43 pm linkquote
Blocking this air hole will reduce the air. Some will still come from the spring plate.
Thu Sep 22, 2022 2:23 am

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Thu Sep 22, 2022 2:23 am linkquote
Jack221 wrote:
Blocking this air hole will reduce the air. Some will still come from the spring plate.
Might try and cover that hole. Although it won't stop all the air, it may reduce it enough to lower my mid range heat issue until my new slide arrives next week.
Fri Sep 23, 2022 6:47 pm

Molto Verboso
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Fri Sep 23, 2022 6:47 pm linkquote
roody76 wrote:
Might try and cover that hole. Although it won't stop all the air, it may reduce it enough to lower my mid range heat issue until my new slide arrives next week.
It won't stop all the air, but neither will a flat slide with an unblocked air port. The slide isn't a seal.

Covering that hole is VERY equivalent to a flat slide, based on tests with several carbs.

BTW it's just a method to see what results with your setup. There are three slide variations SIP currently supplies (more are in the works). In my anecdotal experience, I couldn't get a flat slide to work with the BE4 on a 24 carb. Hoping you have better luck!
Fri Sep 23, 2022 11:50 pm

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Fri Sep 23, 2022 11:50 pm linkquote
Ray8 wrote:
It won't stop all the air, but neither will a flat slide with an unblocked air port. The slide isn't a seal.

Covering that hole is VERY equivalent to a flat slide, based on tests with several carbs.

BTW it's just a method to see what results with your setup. There are three slide variations SIP currently supplies (more are in the works). In my anecdotal experience, I couldn't get a flat slide to work with the BE4 on a 24 carb. Hoping you have better luck!
What atomiser did you use or what slide? Thanks.
Sat Sep 24, 2022 9:46 am

Molto Verboso
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Molto Verboso
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Sat Sep 24, 2022 9:46 am linkquote
roody76 wrote:
What atomiser did you use or what slide? Thanks.
Favorite-to-ride of the three bikes in the garage has your BGM carb, intake and transfer ported BGM 177.
55/160 idle, BE3/160/128mj with this slide and a drilled stock Piaggio filter:

https://www.scooter-center.com/en/throttle-slide-scooter-center-for-dellorto/spaco-si24/24-e/h-vespa-px200-cosa200-cutaway-50-3331591

Not recommending this setup! Too many variables on a particular bike that affect carb tuning (gearing, exhaust, porting..).
"If I were you" I'd get both slides and see which one works best. Save $hipping.

Did you get a reply from Pinasco?
Max CHT on the above is 150-160C, sustained 2/3 throttle uphill. Max CHT on another bike was 370F (actually 410 with a threaded sensor) for an hour or so, also on a BGM kit. I pulled the cylinder afterward to check things. For now that's my safe-enough CHT, but I'm not recommending that either!



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